a goal-kicking forward line

[bigcarl]

But I would like to see maximum use of the good kicks in our team next year - Goddard, Gram, Kosi and Dal.

bj and gram should be the wingers imo. both are thumping kicks and can either boot goals from outside 50 or spoon-feed our forwards.

dal, our most creative player, in the centre and kosi at either chf or ff

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I've been thinking that for a while now... since the dismantling of the Brisbane three-peaters really. All it will take is a team to employ it successfully, and everyone will be doing it again.

We talk about the "modern game" having no palce for anything but leading forwards, but surely the 2001-03 Lions have to be the "pinnacle" of the modern era teamwise, and FF Lynch was a great 1-on-1 contested mark. Mal Michael was a great 1-on-1 shutdown guy. Brown would run around and cause havoc, but is a great 1-on-1 too.

It's where the Saints "bomb it long to G and Roo" mentality probably started - it's what Brisbane did.

The trend has been mobility, because Pavlich, Riewoldt, Brown, Hall, have been the dominant forwards since '04... 3 are CHF, and the other 2 while FF play leading games.

When a player makes their name with the contested mark (i.e. can take enough of them to kick 6 or 7 without the leading marks), this "trend" will dry up pretty fast.

You need to be able to score many ways.

Pack marks.
One on one contests.
Crumbing goals.
Midfield goals.
Running goals.

Brisbane did this. People tend to forget how good their midfield was and how good their small forwards such as Aker and McRae were.

This is the key - many angles to goals.

We also had this until injury crippled Kosi, Hamill, Ball and Lenny.

No disagreement on that from here. IMO the other factor that let Lynch be so succesful was that flooding against the Lions could be very dangerous. Power, Black, Voss, Aker, Lappin all mad the midfield goal a likelihood.

All I'm saying is that in the last 4 years or so, there hasn't been a full forward who would regularly kick a bag due to being just too strong for defenders (and while he may not have looked it, the rumour used to be that Lynch was the only guy in the AFL who benched more than Gehrig). At some point someone is going to come through who's a guarentee to outman even the best once or twice a game left one on one... and when it happens, we'll probably see a bunch of them follow as the tacticians revisit that option because defenses are built more around mobility than the wrestling match.

[rodgerfox]

There is no doubt you now need variety and several angles to goals. But there is still room for a horses for courses mentality. Go tall against teams that have vertically challenged backlines

Absolutely.

[tezza1]

I think Kosi should be ff ...........The main reason is he will give you a contest every time...........something you dont always get with the G Train.........

If you know that your key forward is going to compete everytime the ball is kicked in the air .........then small crumbing forwards ala milne and schneider can assume the front and square with a lot more confidence....

[bigcarl]

bump

I think Kosi should be ff

i agree. but the question then is what do you do with fraser?

too good a goal-kicker not to have on the ground but, at 31, probably limited in the number of other positions he can play.

... but kosi deserves a shot at a key position.

best solution is probably the one suggested by plugger66 ... fraser ff; kosi chf and roo given a licence to play where ever he wants on the forward line

[lefty]

I would say...

Kosi Schneider Rooy
Milne Gehrig ?Rotation?

Gehrig is best suited at FF... thats his strength, leave him there.

2007 we missed another tall forward, it was always kick to Roo... hopefully Kosi can now help share that load.

I still think Goddard is a HBF'er...

[bigcarl]

http://www.saints.com.au/Default.aspx?t ... wsId=54366

ROSS LYON: We moved the ball better in the second half of the year and our goal average went up by about four goals a week to about 14 which puts us around the mark.

RL is right that we were much improved in the second half of 2007 but i worry that he is setting the bar too low.

personally i'd prefer us to be above the mark, rather than around it.

around the mark isn't what i'm hoping for out of 2008.

[bigcarl]

c: gram, dal santo, bj
hf: gilbert, kosi, riewoldt
f: milne, gehrig, midfield rotation (schneider, ball, montagna)

this line-up features a centre-line that can kick goals from outside 50 and/or deliver the ball to our forwards with silver service.

also a strong, durable half-forward line full of marking and goal-kicking options. just try triple-teaming roo. won't work.

plus a couple of runners down there alongside the big G-locomotive.

difficult to see how we can fail to win the premiership with firepower like this available to us

... unless we totally stuff the game plan or injuries raise their fugly head

[bigcarl]

If we can get the fundamentals spot on, the game-plan almost pales in significance.

let's not underestimate the importance of structure (having the right people in the right places) and gameplan.

imo it is pretty simple. move the ball as quickly and as surely as possible to a strong-marking, aerially dominant forward line containing kosi, riewoldt and fraser.

have a couple of quick goalsneaks like milne and schneider nearby to mop up.

set up a goal-kicking centreline ... gram, dal santo and bj are all capable of kicking goals from outside 50 or thereabouts. make the best use of them.

kosi to chf or ff is the key, imo. his ability to take contested marks just takes so much pressure off riewoldt and fraser.

our ability to convert opportunities to goals is what let us down badly last year. imo we were so busy being "accountable" that blokes forgot to get the pill and were too scared to take any risks for fear of making a mistake.

i take RL's point about finding a balance between defence and attack. my advice is to let defenders be defenders and let forwards be forwards.

a forward's role should be to get the pill and kick a goal, not to be "accountable". Let the opposition worry about our forwards rather than the reverse.

[aussiejones]

"Let the opposition worry about our forwards rather than the reverse."

Exactly . I think ross learnt quite a bit from last year.

He has to know their capabilities much better , add greated fittness , fewer soft tissue injuries , and a ruckman .......a scniederman ..

Watch ot in 2008.

Hopefully he is not setting the goal scoring bar too low see quote
ROSS LYON: We moved the ball better in the second half of the year and our goal average went up by about four goals a week to about 14 which puts us around the mark.

Its time to bury the opposition...

[bigcarl]

It's time to bury the opposition

yep, percentage saints!

[Ghost Like]

a forward's role should be to get the pill and kick a goal, not to be "accountable". Let the opposition worry about our forwards rather than the reverse.

You're right that is one of the forward's roles but if the pill is in the hands of the opposition I would want each forward next to his man if not chasing and tackling. If they are not accountable then they are just putting more pressure on our mids and our defenders. I'm sure the opposition do worry about our forwards but that worry is eased as long as their mids and forwards are placing similar pressure on their opponents.

"ROSS LYON: We moved the ball better in the second half of the year and our goal average went up by about four goals a week to about 14 which puts us around the mark."

I think people are getting a little caught up in this statement, I take it that Ross, in his own understated way, is saying that "...around the mark." means Premiership contention and if the planets align in 2008 and we happen to win the flag then we will be the mark.

I have no doubt we can win a shoot out with a team, if that team wants one but what we need to be able to do is consistently kick around the 14 to 16 goals whilst still being accountable and honouring our defenders by giving them a chop out by not allowing an opposition's defence to easily (without pressure) bring the ball into their forward line.

***Apologies for the ramble***

[4theluvoftheclub]

It's time to bury the opposition

yep, percentage saints!

winning by 35 and scoring 85 to 50 is better for a team's percentage than a big scoring game and a 50 point win scoring 130 to 80

[awesome_days]

The talk of 6 man forward lines is a bit silly.

It is rare that a team initially lines uplike that as the 6th forward normally being an extra midfielder, creating a spare man in defence.

Teams only go man-on-man when they need to chase a game, which, while you have contingiencies for, it is not your main plan.

Our first choice forward line should be a five man with the 6th forward beng an attacking mid (a link man through the centre and accountable for one of the HBF, preferably the more defensively minded of the 2. This mid would be part of the full mid rotation.
C: Goddard Hayes Gram
Att Mid: Dal Santo
Leadup HF: Riewoldt CGardiner
Small Forward: Schneider
Tall Forwards: Koschitzke Gherig

If we are strugling a little to win ball forward we can go with a four man forward line, relying on our bigs skills without crumbers (we all know Riewoldt, Kosi & Gherig take the mark most times one on one). The small forward would be added as an attacking mid and sub one of the talls for a more agile utility player (such as Gilbert)
C: Goddard Hayes Gram
Att Mid: Dal Santo Schneider
Leadup HF: Gilbert CGardiner
Tall Forwards: Koschitzke Riewoldt
This is only a temporary option until you regain midfield control and would be countered by double teaming with 2 free defenders. Quick entry's lace out are essential.

If we are being smashed on the rebound, go man-on-man again using a utility such as Gilbert or Goddard on the spare defender as these players add the attacking option with their extra height.

[Teflon]

[quote="rodgerfox"][quote="Teflon"][quote="rodgerfox"]


I now understand why you don't ever post about football.[quote="rodgerfox"]

While we are on the subject of patronising?

But again, do feel free to selectively quote as you do your holiday program it worries me little in truth.

[saint66au]

Not only are you stupid you dont know yoyu are and thats plain scary.

A great example of the reason you got a holiday last time Teffers

Enough of the patronising put-downs OK??

[bigcarl]

winning by 35 and scoring 85 to 50 is better for a team's percentage than a big scoring game and a 50 point win scoring 130 to 80

true and if it wins us a premiership i couldn't care if we outscore them 2 points to one.

but the fact remains that our team was 14th in the league for converting inside 50s to goals last year, so obviously major work is needed on our forward structure and/or gameplan.

[Armoooo]

The talk of 6 man forward lines is a bit silly.

It is rare that a team initially lines uplike that as the 6th forward normally being an extra midfielder, creating a spare man in defence.

Teams only go man-on-man when they need to chase a game, which, while you have contingiencies for, it is not your main plan.

Our first choice forward line should be a five man with the 6th forward beng an attacking mid (a link man through the centre and accountable for one of the HBF, preferably the more defensively minded of the 2. This mid would be part of the full mid rotation.
C: Goddard Hayes Gram
Att Mid: Dal Santo
Leadup HF: Riewoldt CGardiner
Small Forward: Schneider
Tall Forwards: Koschitzke Gherig

If we are strugling a little to win ball forward we can go with a four man forward line, relying on our bigs skills without crumbers (we all know Riewoldt, Kosi & Gherig take the mark most times one on one). The small forward would be added as an attacking mid and sub one of the talls for a more agile utility player (such as Gilbert)
C: Goddard Hayes Gram
Att Mid: Dal Santo Schneider
Leadup HF: Gilbert CGardiner
Tall Forwards: Koschitzke Riewoldt
This is only a temporary option until you regain midfield control and would be countered by double teaming with 2 free defenders. Quick entry's lace out are essential.

If we are being smashed on the rebound, go man-on-man again using a utility such as Gilbert or Goddard on the spare defender as these players add the attacking option with their extra height.

Great work AD, don't know where you've come from recently but keep up the good work
A far more accurate look at things...

[bigcarl]

If they are not accountable then they are just putting more pressure on our mids and our defenders.

true, but common sense has to rule.

for instance, i don't want to see fraser and riewoldt chasing their opponents up to our half back flank leaving stephen milne as our sole forward marking option as happened at least once last year.

i think we sometimes took the "numbers behind the ball" edict a little too seriously. let's always have someone there to kick it to.

people used to give lockett a hard time for having opponents run off him.

what his asthmatic condition and inability to run for long distances meant, of course, was an unmanned lockett waiting in the forward line and any turn-over resulting in a goal for us.

imo, a forward's primary role is to put a score on the board but if the opposition's got it of course you'd like our guys to try to get it back

[Ghost Like]

In those days bigcarl they were still kicking to contests and not playing possession football.

I don't want to see Milne manning up on Scarlett in Geelong's forward line or on Hunter in West Coasts. It is common sense but if they have the ball we have no choice but to man up which is different to flooding.

No point having a loose man in our forward line if they have it and are playing keepings off.

[bigcarl]

In those days bigcarl they were still kicking to contests and not playing possession football.

are you saying there is no place for kicking to a contest in today's forward lines? if so, where does it leave a guy like jonathan brown or kosi?

imo possession football. or whatever you like to call it, is not the only way to win a premiership.

you go with whatever you have and play to your strengths. if you have a guy who can take a contested mark, like brown or kosi, you should use him in that role.

it's another way of breaking open the flood. footy's very much a game of cycles and people tend to mimic what the successful teams of their eras. i'd prefer us to be setting trends rather than following them.

[Ghost Like]

I never said there was no place for Brown or Kosi, that's putting words in my mouth or if I was Shane Warne I would say I've been taken out of context.

Simply put, there is no point in having a Brown or Kosi if they have the ball and Brown or Kosi are not manning up. Once everyone is manned up then Brown and Kosi are worth their weight in gold because they can win an aerial contest which is exactly what would have been created once every opposition player was accounted for.

We need the ball to score and if they have loose men and play smart possession football we will not score no matter how potent our forward line looks on paper or reputation.

[bigcarl]

sorry, i misunderstood your meaning when you said "in those days they were kicking to contests, rather than playing possession football" as though it was something that will never return to the game.

[Ghost Like]

No worries bigcarl! Winning game styles appear to be cyclical and vary by degrees each year but they all seem to have a common trait and that is the team that is prepared to run harder and longer to man up and back up their team mates when the oppo has the ball will win. Brisbane x3, Port, Sydney, the Eagles and now Geelong have (had) that ability.

We had it but unfortunately ran out of steam (players) by season's end. I think we'll have it back next season with a few tweaks which will hopefully be enough degrees to take out the flag.

[bigcarl]

all seem to have a common trait and that is the team that is prepared to run harder and longer to man up and back up their team mates when the oppo has the ball will win.

i thought the common trait was that they all seemed to kick a higher score than their opponents most of the time.

to me it is pretty simple. we need to get it off them when they have it ... and hurt them when we have it.

last season we didn't hurt them enough, imo.

the full-time addition of a guy who can consistently take contested marks like kosi has to help. takes huge pressure off riewoldt and fraser and gives our guys the option of kicking to a contest ... rather than trying to find roo or fraser laces up everytime.