Kosi at FF? Why?

[rodgerfox]

A well co ordinated forward line will more than often have one or more players starved of oppurtunities for the good of the team. A forward who can draw the attention not only his own but a second defender on a lead will more than often open the door for lesser team mates who receive all the pats on the back by fans.

Of course.

But do you use a player of Kosi's value, of Kosi's ability, a plyer like Kosi who can win the ball in defence and in the middle - in this role?

To me that is simply a waste.

[CURLY]

The comment that Grant Thomas used this as a decoy about Gehrig, you know this do you?

[rodgerfox]

The comment that Grant Thomas used this as a decoy about Gehrig, you know this do you?

Know what?

I don't understand your question?

[Spinner]

Agreed Rodgerfox...Koschitzke would be much more dominating in defense and through the midfield.

...Anyone else remember the 11 Brownlow votes in 4 games back in 2005 when he was made Captain????

[bigcarl]

But do you use a player of Kosi's value, of Kosi's ability, a plyer like Kosi who can win the ball in defence and in the middle - in this role? To me that is simply a waste.

so where are the goals going to come from roger?

this season the cats had five guys who kicked 30 or more goals. we had three and one of them has retired.

we failed badly to kick winning scores and we must find the most efficient way to convert inside 50s to goals.

it's all about making the most of your opportunities and i can say categorically that we won't be winning too many games unless we can put a score on the board.

kosi, the best contested mark in the team, will be a key player in our revival in 2008 ... at full forward.

but i wouldn't stop with kosi at ff.

i'd be looking at bolstering the half-forward line by playing bj and possibly gilbert there, too, which would take enormous pressure off riewoldt

that way players streaming forward would have multiple goal-kicking options to kick it to.

[rodgerfox]

But do you use a player of Kosi's value, of Kosi's ability, a plyer like Kosi who can win the ball in defence and in the middle - in this role? To me that is simply a waste.

so where are the goals going to come from roger?

this season the cats had five guys who kicked 30 or more goals. we had three and one of them has retired.

we failed badly to kick winning scores and we must find the most efficient way to convert inside 50s to goals.

it's all about making the most of your opportunities and i can say categorically that we won't be winning too many games unless we can put a score on the board.

kosi, the best contested mark in the team, will be a key player in our revival in 2008 ... at full forward.

but i wouldn't stop with kosi at ff.

i'd be looking at bolstering the half-forward line by playing bj and possibly gilbert there, too, which would take enormous pressure off riewoldt

that way players streaming forward would have multiple goal-kicking options to kick it to.

I totally agree.

We need to kick more goals.

But I believe the concept of having 'the big guns' do it for you is outdated.

Look at Geelong's five +30 goal kickers.....

Mooney 67
Johnson 49
N.Ablett 34
Stokes 32
Chapman 30

Only one is a 'contested mark' player.

The key I believe, is to have 10 guys kick 20-25+ for the year. Note that only one Geelong player kicked over 50.

What is also important, is to have 3 or more guys in your forward line capable of kicking 5 or more.

To me, by playing Kosi forward - or more specifically playing a 'two pronged' forward line, we're basically saying we need them to kick 6 or 7 each every week.

By rotating 1 or 2 marking targets through the forward line, aswell as 'forward on-ballers' through there, you don't need anyone to kick 6 or 7 each week - let alone two guys doing it each week.

I remember when we beat Essendon in 05 at Docklands. It was the best I've ever seen a two pronged forward line function.

Gehrig kicked 8, and Roo kicked 7. They absolutely dominated and our forward line functioned presicely the way Thomas intended it to.

The problem was, that we only just got over the line. They seriously threatened with 5 minutes to go.

That was the day I realised we had a problem. The concept of the 'two pronged' forward line worked like text book - yet we nearly got rolled.

Had they still functioned well but kicked 6 each, we'd have lost. That just doesn't add up to have the two best forwards in the game both kick 6 and you get beaten.

We shouldn't be attempting to blow sides away thinking that we're going to get 15 goals from our two big guns every week. It won't happen.

[bigcarl]

What is also important, is to have 3 or more guys in your forward line capable of kicking 5 or more. To me, by playing Kosi forward - or more specifically playing a 'two pronged' forward line, we're basically saying we need them to kick 6 or 7 each every week.

i think you've misinterpreted me.

i advocate playing bj and gilbert at hf alongside riewoldt so we are more than a two-pronged attack and have multiple marking goal-kicking targets.

[busso mick]

The recruitment of Schneider would indicate that we are aware of our lack of scoring options. The replacement of Gehrig with Kosi doesn't imply that Kosi will play the Gehrig style of game (quick lead or outmuscle in a one-on-one). The fact that Kosi can take a contested mark (while Gehrig took few) will mean that more crumbing opportunities will arise for Milne & Schneider. When Plugger left our club it forced us to revamp our scoring options, the departure of Gehrig could turn out to be a blessing for us. I agree it must be more than Riewoldt & Kosi, a lot more is required from attacking midfielders to even the scoring contributions.

[rodgerfox]

The fact that Kosi can take a contested mark (while Gehrig took few)

That's an interesting point.

Gehrig was a fantastic overhead mark early on.

But since he stuffed his fingers and thumbs, he was hopeless.

Yet we still tried to use him this way.

[Beej]

When things get tight and space is limited a side needs a marking, go-to man to kick it to. Riewoldt is best deployed around half-forward, imo his ability would be wasted playing him deep in the forward line and if Kosi was playing a kick behind the footy then we would then lack a focal point deep forward.

Not too sure I'd like to rely on Milne and Schneider to kick winning scores week after week. They're most effective when they're feeding off the scraps of the big men.

We have an abundance of players capable of playing a kick behind the footy. I think Goddard and Fisher are both outstanding in that role.

Kosi roaming around half-back is a luxury I don't think we can afford at this point. Also, Riewoldt, more than anyone, will appreciate the extra space given to him if Kosi was in the forward line.

[CURLY]

With the adition of King who in his last game took played the kick behind play role beutifully Kosi can play in front of the ball. King took a couple of great contested marks in the Grand final thats two more than our ruckmen combined for the last two seasons ( exc Kosi)

[rodgerfox]

When things get tight and space is limited a side needs a marking, go-to man to kick it to.

Remember though, we've been roundly criticised for not being able to score against the flood - based on the practice you mentioned above. When we've flooded, we've kicked long to marking forwards - it doesn't work.

Not too sure I'd like to rely on Milne and Schneider to kick winning scores week after week.

Neither would I.

I don't want to ever rely on two players to kick us a winning score each week. That's why I don't a 'Roo and Kosi' forward line locked down.

[bigcarl]

When we've (been) flooded, we've kicked long to marking forwards - it doesn't work.

perhaps that's because we haven't had a strong contested mark up there. not fraser's greatest strength, nor is it roo's.

i saw a lot of lockett playing and i'm telling you that a bloke who can take a contested pack mark is not to be underestimated when it comes to beating the flood. not that kosi is lockett or anything like it ... but he can take strong contested pack marks, something we have lacked.

[rodgerfox]

When we've (been) flooded, we've kicked long to marking forwards - it doesn't work.

perhaps that's because we haven't had a strong contested mark up there. not fraser's greatest strength, nor is it roo's.

That's actually a pretty good point.

We've used them as 'big marking targets' but they aren't really that.

[Oh When the Saints]

Your point about the Essendon game is an excellent one rodgerfox.

Indeed, in 1997 we had I believe 7 players who kicke 20+ goals. Only Stewie was a big key forward, and even then he was pretty mobile. Winmar, Heatley, Everitt, a young Hall, Aussie, Lappin and Joel Smith.

Was a great mix and a big reason for our success.

[Beej]

When things get tight and space is limited a side needs a marking, go-to man to kick it to.

Remember though, we've been roundly criticised for not being able to score against the flood - based on the practice you mentioned above. When we've flooded, we've kicked long to marking forwards - it doesn't work.

Not too sure I'd like to rely on Milne and Schneider to kick winning scores week after week.

Neither would I.

I don't want to ever rely on two players to kick us a winning score each week. That's why I don't a 'Roo and Kosi' forward line locked down.

I'm all for Kosi spending time around the ground - I agree that his versatility would be wasted as a full-time forward. However, he'll be spending the majority of games up forward for the simple reason that we just have no other options.

The purist's idea of a full-forward is no more, as you said, but that doesn't mean big forwards are no longer effective. Every good side needs their two or three key talls up forward because they, at the very least, attract plenty of attention.

You would say most of the goals kicked in the competition come from quick, sweeping movements of the footy across the ground. If we move the ball forward in that fashion we will never have to worry about being clamped down by numbers.

In other words, if we're playing well, Kosi will have a field day and if we're not, he could go missing.

We'll struggle to deal with a flood, as will every team, regardless of who's playing in the forward line - the key is not giving the opposition enough time to setup their stall.

[bigcarl]

To me, by playing Kosi forward - or more specifically playing a 'two pronged' forward line, we're basically saying we need them to kick 6 or 7 each every week.

personally i think we need a 'six-pronged' forward line which includes kosi and riewoldt. but everyone else on the forward line should be a dangerous goal-kicker in his own right.

that way they can't afford to double-team either riewoldt or kosi. we just kick it to bj or gilbert or milne ... or one of the mids has a ping.

imo we should include forward pocket as part of the midfield rotation, so alternatively dal, ball, joey, harvs, schneider and lenny are all at times lurking near the goals and having a bit of a breather.

my forward set-up

HF: BJ, Riewoldt, Gilbert
F: Milne, Kosi, Rotating Mid

if it's not working on a particular day, then rotate them around positionally until it does ... for example, kosi to chf, roo to hff, bj to ff or any of countless other variations.

and move it down there quickly FFS.

i'm red hot on this topic because this is where i can see major improvement coming in 2008.

a good topic roger

[Eastern]

Agreed Rodgerfox...Koschitzke would be much more dominating in defense and through the midfield.

...Anyone else remember the 11 Brownlow votes in 4 games back in 2005 when he was made Captain????

Kosi kicked a lot of goals in that period too !!

[Teflon]

some of the best games I saw Gehrig play he kicked 2 goals

Which games were they?

What you want a list of games?

Well yes.

It's a bizarre comment. A guy who kicked 6 twice in finals, kicked 10 in a game more than once and kicked 8 from CHF twice - yet his best games are when he's kicked 2?

Nonsense.

Grant Thomas used to use that line to put the public of the scent when Gehrig was in the shiits and ready to give it away. It was rubbish.

A player like Gehrig, in a position such as FF, has not played well if they kick 2. It doesn't mean they've been poor neccessarily as obviously there's more than just kicking goals. But you don't put a player on the park who can kick 100 goals in a season as a decoy and comsider his best games to be when he kicks 2.

Ahh...I see...so Grant was just stimulating Gehrig Dodg...the old "reverse psychology..."....yer righto...cause Fraser would never see that corporate card trick comin....

You need to actually WATCH a game Dodg - Gehrig played some super games for our club and did little on the scoreboard at times...more so when Hamill was an available foil....

I saw Milne kick 11 or so against a dud Brisbane side once....not his best game.........(Gehrig was also a renowned flat track bully....).and if I were playing Geelong in a GF and just once Gehrig took Scarletts influence out of the game and didnt kick a goal but opened it up for Roo...yer thatd be special.........no need to be so black and white Dodg...try outside the square occasionally....

[rodgerfox]

Agreed Rodgerfox...Koschitzke would be much more dominating in defense and through the midfield.

...Anyone else remember the 11 Brownlow votes in 4 games back in 2005 when he was made Captain????

Kosi kicked a lot of goals in that period too !!

He did - but most of them were actually kicked when he was in the ruck.

Granted it was against a dud, but his game against Collingwood in 05 was one of the best I've seen from a Saints big man ever.