Is there really a need for a player who can only play FF?

[Saints_45]

With the G-Train gone now everyone is coming up with someone who could replace him. However looking through the recent successful teams none have had anymore than one Key Forward.

Sydney -- Barry Hall

Geelong -- Cam Mooney

WCE -- Lynch

My point being is it now better to have one key forward and a compliment of small and medium forwards.

Sydney have Nick Davis, Micky O, Ryan O'Keefe

Geelong have Steven Johnson, Matthew Stokes, Nathan Ablett, Gary Ablett Jnr (sometimes)

They also had Tom Hawkins but seemed to only want to use the one Key Forward

WCE -- Wirrapunda (sometimes), Hansen, LeCrax, Hunter (swingman)

Now the other thing these teams have is the have a lt of avenues to goal including through the midfield which we seem to lack at times.

However a forward line of Roo, Milne, C Gardiner, X Clarke, Schneider and a resting mid or another smallish type would give us Roo as a focal point, a couple of other hit up targets, 2 crumbers and also some pace and forward line pressure.

We could swing Kosi down if we feel could be isolated and therefore the other team exposed or even R Clarke to free him up and just tell him lead for the ball and if we don;t have it run and chase and hassle the opposition.

Oh and don't forget the supposed best FF in the comp Fevola has played for a team who hasn't gone very far in recent years. I'm fully convinced that the day of a permanent Full Forward are over and that if you are a Key Forward you need to be able to play CHF, FF and even up the ground when neccesary

[ben_fff]

Sydney has a one dimensional FF called M. O'loughlin.

[Saints_45]

Fair point but I still wouldn't consider Micky O as a key forward. He is 190cm tall and 89 kgs.

Charlie Gardiner is 190cm and 91 kgs in comparison and see both of them as a secondary hit up target if Charlie gets a game.

I think O'Laughlin struggled with injury this year like Hall so forced him to play closer to the goal square than he has in other years.

[Saints94]

There's another forgotten lad down there named Heath Grundy

[Saints_45]

Yes no doubt he will be a good prospect but he wasn't there in 05 and 06 when they made Grand Finals.

I'm sure all these teams have back up Key Forwards but my main point was they seem to only want to play one at a time so that there is more forward line pressure.

Lions were the last team to make the last Saturday in Sept with two big Key forwards (Lynch and Brown) and that was 4 years ago. Footy has changed in those 4 years in a big way

[Saints94]

Yes no doubt he will be a good prospect but he wasn't there in 05 and 06 when they made Grand Finals.

I'm sure all these teams have back up Key Forwards but my main point was they seem to only want to play one at a time so that there is more forward line pressure.

Lions were the last team to make the last Saturday in Sept with two big Key forwards (Lynch and Brown) and that was 4 years ago. Footy has changed in those 4 years in a big way

Bradshaw a big man to who can kick goals

[SaintWodonga]

Our players just need to kick straighter... A LOT straighter..

[Oh When the Saints]

Terrific post.

Hit the nail on the head.


Gone are the days of set "forwards" - i.e. a bloke who plays FF and a bloke who plays CHF.

Gone too are the days of two big forwards - in your Lockett/Loewe mould.


Now half-forward flankers are the go - and you need 2-3 talented ones to succeed.

Geelong - Chapman, G. Ablett, Johnson
Port - Motlop, Pearce, Ebert
Collingwood - Didak, Davis, Rusling
Kangaroos - Edwards, Jones, Grant, Harvey

etc.


Scheider, X. Clarke, C. Gardiner and Milne are the key to us winning a flag in 2008.

[SaintBot]

not sure how nathan ablett, ashley hansen and michael o'loughlin are medium forwards


edit: and rusling as mentioned in owts' post...very much a key position forward

[HarveysDeciple]

Combine this with the watts thread on the main board at the moment and you have your answer as to why he was delisted in the first place.

[Oh When the Saints]

Rusling is a flanker, not a KPP IMO ... only 190cm and a lead-up player.


Hansen and N. Ablett are KPP's, but they weren't the players I was referring to in my post.

[rogerwa]

look no further than nth melb....nathan thompson was their standout key ff last yr & they couldnt win a game to save emselves this yr he goes down during the ansett cup & nth finish top 4...forget ff's everyone's gotta pull their finger out...pretty bloody simple game plan to me

which gets me to another point re time required to adjust to new game plans etc etc

once again nth melb last yr ...after 3 yrs of going to rocca & thompson wk after wk getting no where this yr with one week to seasons opening they lose thompson...do they cry oh chyt its wrecked our game plan...no bloody way just put their head down arse up & get on with it...RESULT TOP 4

time for some of our prima donnas to get that same attitude...imo that goes not only for players,coaches but supporters

no more cop outs...ie takes time to adjust to new game plan crap

JUST DO IT

[mad saint guy]

If a player can kick 60+ goals, then absolutely. No average FFs will survive (ie Kent Kingsley), but anyone who can still have a real impact from FF will still get a game.

[saintsRrising]

Is there really a need for a player who can only play FF?

Well I would ask instead:

Do we have a player good enough to only play FF?

In Kosi I believe we do (Or Roo at FF and Kosi at CHF).

Fraser was not fully fit the last few years but showed that a good FF is a valuable thing. Straightens your team up.

Geelong was mentioned above.....For years they bemoaned their lack of tall forwards. This year with multiple effective big forwards they dominated an onea flag.

This year Mooney had a HUGE year.....Ottens often went forward and other talls such as Nathen Ablett 196cm (YES he is that tall...so is not a medium forward!!) played as key forwards....

I personally am in no doubt that have good capable in-form talls in the Cats forward line helped the rest of their team to straighten up and make he most of their opportunities.

The Dogs by contrast in 2006 often dominated in many positions but saw it wasted due their lack of good talls. I say good talls as just being tall is not enough as their WC reject demonstrated this year.





Now the role of small to medium forwards is also VERY important....and with no Hamill our only remaining small to medium forward for the last two years has been Milne.....and he has therefore had a lot of pressure put on him. So despite often having Roo and GTrain play very well our overall forward line was not good as we only had Milne...and this was then exacerbated by mids who could not kick enough goals.





In 2008.....I personally believe that our forward structure is looking a lot better than it has for a while...

TWO regular tall fowards in Kosi and Roo. Roo's mobility suiting the run of modern football.

King or M Gardiner being able to drift down on ocassions to take marks.....but to not be based there too much.


AND very IMPORTNANTLY TWO permanent small forwards in Schneider AND Milne...rather than just Milne.

The remaining numbers being made up of the rotating mids.

If X and or Fiora could lift their conversion rate then things would be looking very balanced.

If someone like C Gardiner (or perhaps the taller but light Allen) can bob up to play the medium forward position then that will be the icing on the cake.


PS.. WC was also mentioned above as just having Lynch. the games they could also wheel out Hansen led to a better WC....and a more winning WC.

[saintsRrising]

T

Geelong - Chapman, G. Ablett, Johnson
Port - Motlop, Pearce, Ebert
Collingwood - Didak, Davis, Rusling
Kangaroos - Edwards, Jones, Grant, Harvey

.

N Ablett = 196cm
Westhoff = 199cm

Pies..yes they wished Rocca was more mobile and less one dimensional and yes he has always been probably too much ofa lumberer for FF...but in 2008 with Wood in the ruck watch for Cloke and Fraser to BOTH play forward.


Kangas. Thompson will be back at FF in 2008...and a fit Thompson would have helped them in 2007.

[Oh When the Saints]

I wasn't saying that you can win without key forwards - you can't. Eagles in '05 showed that.

Merely that the role of small forwards and flankers is much more important than it used to be.


Geelong's first plan was to win the footy out of the middle and get it in long quickly - what all teams aim to do.

If they lost the clearance or it was a contest in the centre, they would drop numbers behind the ball into their backline.

They win the footy in the backline and rely on their half-forwards (Chapman, Ablett, Johnson) to have pushed well up the ground, offering a target at half-back and in the middle of the ground, and then providing the link to Mooney or N. Ablett in the forward line.

Now, if you don't have effective half-forwards (as well as several other factors), such a gameplan is useless, and you end up getting stuck at half-back, chipping the ball around and not having any forward options (sound familiar).

Lyon used X, Fiora and Milne more effectively towards the end of the year, and even Ball at CHF against Hawthorn. He also reverted to a more traditional plan with fewer numbers behind the ball IMO.


With Schneider, X and Milne in '08, I suspect we will see a St Kilda similar to how we played against the Dees way back in Round 1 last year, when X and Fiora played well from half-forward (like Chapman and G Ablett), and we pushed plenty of numbers behind the ball, then moving forward quickly to Gehrig.

At the end of the day though, all this talk is useless unless one thing happens:

just put their head down arse up & get on with it...RESULT TOP 4

No gameplan in the world can work without that happening.

[saintsRrising]

The OP was...

My point being is it now better to have one key forward and a compliment of small and medium forwards.

Which I disagree with...... if you have two good tall forwards...you play them and you will be better off.

If your talls are only GOPS then you will seek to perhaps only play one if you have some classy smalls or mediums...ie the Dogs with Johnson.

However it would be my belief that any AFL coach would always prefer to have two good genuine tall forwards if he can and not just the one.


The small SCG does make for somewhat of an exception......

[Saints_45]

Fair enough all points taken. Just thought I would put the idea out there. I guess I should have said the power forwards like Gehrig, J Brown, Richo, Q Lynch, Neitz, Tredrea, Lloyd + Lucas, Rocca, N. Thompson and to an extent Fevola.

Overall the majority of the above guys have either played well but teams have struggled, (Richo, Lloyd + Lucas, Fevola, Neitz, Richo, N.Thompson in 06) or they have struggled themselves and people around them stepped up (Rocca, Tredrea).

The exceptions are Gehrig, Q Lynch and J Brown. Now Lynch and Brown both get some ball at the wing occasionaly and I think are deceptively athletic as is Richo but just poor disposal lets him down. Gehrig was hit and miss and on his down days was nothing more than a decoy at times.

As far as N. Ablett and Westhoff I don't think they are a dominant type player like say Gehrig, Kosi or Roo would be. In fact I think Tom Hawkins would demand the ball more than Ablett, remember that is just a thought.

However it still means a tall defender has to play on them which throws out some defensive structures.

As for WCE with Hanson no doubt they are a better team but he is also up and down the ground between the flanks which you don't see the power forwards doing.

I guess it is the effect of zoning and the flooding that every team does these days