The Dome and its Surface...

[Ghost Like]

I was watching ESPN yesterday and they had a feature on this synthetic surface that is taking over some of the venues in the NFL in the US. It looks amazing and is getting some good reviews by the Pro Players in terms of it's forgiveness on joints and legs. Some were claiming it's better than actual turf to play on.

I looked the company up on the net,

http://www.fieldturf.com/

They cover quite a few sports over there and Colleges are finding that the cost is a lot cheaper than the up keep and the relaying of turf. The only downside to it that I can see, apart from some minor burns (the equivalent of grass grazes?), is the small rubber particles that are in layed in the surface flick up and could get into player's eyes.

I wonder if the powers that be have considered this or like all things AFL will continue to do what they think regardless of suggestions or evidence that there's a better way elsewhere?

Having said all this, I don't recall this season just gone having as much controversy over the surface, although there was talk of installing giant grow lamps.

[Oh When the Saints]

A bugbear of mine.

No team in the last two years has won after playing 4 games in a row at Telstra Dome (haven't checked stats prior to that)

So I would expect St Kilda to lose Round 5 of the 2008 season ...


Apparently the issue with the TD grass is that once it is laid, it begins to die, and this doesn't create any cushioning effect.

I believe they hope to have lamps installed for next season, which should prolong the life of the grass and improve the surface.


I've actually seen the turf you are talking about Ghost Like. The rubber bits wouldn't be an issue IMO - they're tiny, and would be no different to mud flicking in the eye.


Such turf is still pretty uforgiving though - you'd prefer to land on natural grass, and don't forget the NFL players wear lots of padding when they hit the ground.


Eventually IMO all surfaces will be synthetic, but I don't think we are quite ready yet.

[evertonfc]

One day we will develop a better surface for playing football on; it will have incredible durability, but have plenty of give to ensure it doesn't hurt the players.

And it will be fast enough for the modern game, too...

But we haven't developed that turf just yet. Until we do, we have to stick with grass, and we have to hope these lamps bloody well work.

[stinger]

One day we will develop a better surface for playing football on; it will have incredible durability, but have plenty of give to ensure it doesn't hurt the players.

And it will be fast enough for the modern game, too...

But we haven't developed that turf just yet. Until we do, we have to stick with grass, and we have to hope these lamps bloody well work.

of course they work...i know pple who have been using them to grow grass for years......indoors too..... ...not saying they are friends of mine..just know them ..........

[fingers]

My understanding is that it's the cost that becomes the problem rather than the surface. An AFL ground is much bigger than NFL etc.

[evertonfc]

One day we will develop a better surface for playing football on; it will have incredible durability, but have plenty of give to ensure it doesn't hurt the players.

And it will be fast enough for the modern game, too...

But we haven't developed that turf just yet. Until we do, we have to stick with grass, and we have to hope these lamps bloody well work.

of course they work...i know pple who have been using them to grow grass for years......indoors too..... ...not saying they are friends of mine..just know them ..........

...boom-tish

[aussierules0k]

[jill]

Saints & Doggies have had ongoing problems with soft tissue leg injuries and while not all can be blamed on Dome surface i believe it has contributed to the problem.

[plugger66]

Saints & Doggies have had ongoing problems with soft tissue leg injuries and while not all can be blamed on Dome surface i believe it has contributed to the problem.

I think that is where the arguement about the ground breaks down. The doggies and the Bombers have little or no probrems with injuries at TD. We are the only home club that has continuing problems so I am pretty sure it is not the surface.

[saintspremiers]

Having said all this, I don't recall this season just gone having as much controversy over the surface, although there was talk of installing giant grow lamps.

I was of the same thought... until I mentioned the surface to an old ex-player (in the know).. "rubbish... they spray it green" [insert rant here] .. it's a big problem. They could get the whole of South Aussie dope growers with their grow lamps... it won't make any difference. The "soil" is laid on concrete.

Even though I love the comforts of the dome... a move the MCG would show we mean business. Flags are won at the G.

Does growing grass in soil laid on concrete cause the problem, or is the issue
of lack of sunlight and a low core temperature of the concrete as winter sets in???

ie. concrete gets very cold underfoot in winter, and may act as a extra cooling for the soil, making it even harder for the grass to grow.

Heat lamps should help heat wise from above (obvious!), but perhaps they need (probably too late now), hydronic heating through or just above the concrete base, to warm the soil up.

RE: moving to the G - this does have a lot of merit only IF we can improve our average crowd numbers signifcantly, otherwise we may as well stay at the Dome, and hope the heat lamps make a difference!

[Megamaguire]

and acts as a deterent to normal grass growth. So the grass is compromised because it has a concrete base beneath it and i still think the players legs are compromised because of the 'hardness' of the surface.

If only heating pipes were installed throughout the concrete bed below the soil and grass layers then the extra heating in winter may indeed have resulted in lusher grass. Grass tends to shut down when the soil temperature is low.
I cant help thinking the afl 'brainstrust' compromised player safety in not doing their utmost to produce a less hard surface for teams to play on.

Now that they probably cant fill in the carpark beneath and replace it with soil i'd be interested in the surface being raised a foot or two if needed in to produce a springier/ softer surface.

G O S A I N T S !

[saintsRrising]

Ok Saintspremiers and Megamaguire.....a few basics on concrete as there seems to be a few myths and mis-understandings.

Firstly what is concrete?? It is basically just stones and sand (called aggregate) which is bound (or stuck) together with cement. Cement is made from another stone material called Limestone.

I say this because essentially concrete is made of the same mineral material as soil....which is in the main degraded rock or sand with a bit of organic material thrown in.



So its properties with respect to heat are essentially the same.....

Yes concrete is cold underfoot in winter...but so is soil if you walk on it!!!!


Concrete or stone or soil......all transfer (or conduct) heat.....but not as quickly as good conductors such as a metal.


Does grass grow on concrete slabs if they have earth above them? Yes. One method of building is to have a roofdeck made of concrete with a layer of soil above it. such roofs grwo grass easily and healthily.....or other plants.

There are also many roofed gardens around the world where areas such as trainlines etc have been roofed over.

The difference between these structures and Docklands is that they receive adequate sunlight.

Is Docklands cold. well yes in winter it is. But remember that games back at waverley at night (and even in the day) werea lot colder than watchinga game at Docklands!!!!



So the grass needs more sunlight.....
1/ To provide sunlight for photosynthesis

and

2/ To warm the grass...just as sunlight on your skin feels warm (currently most of it does not receive direct sunlight for warmth.




Would heating the slab help. Yes it would. extra warmth would help as most plants grow more when they are warm......but this because the grass does not receive sunlight on it. But heat is not enough...the grass also needs more light so that more photosynthesis can occur.

[saintsRrising]

Does growing grass in soil laid on concrete cause the problem,

Do you remember when Packer started World Seroes Cricket...and the drop in wickets??

These were concrete slabs or concrete trays complete witha layer of soil and grass which were dropped into Waverley. I think some were also used at the MCG.

they worked well...but were laid in areas where they got ample sunlight.

Back at Docklands...I think but do not know thata similar system is used at Docklands where small suqre slabs of grass are gown remotely...and then lifted in as required. Offsite they get ample light and all is weel....only when put into the dark of Docklands does the grass begin to die.

[HSVKing]

The problem with using synthetic turf is that it is costly.

Compared to the NFL, AFL players do a lot more twisting and turning on their feet, and damage to the surface would be a more common thing.

For the players, harder surface, and the fact that the grass actually burns skin if it is slid across would be reason enough to not use it.

The game is too fast for this kind of surface, it has to be played on turf.