St Kilda thought about chasing Cousins during trade week?

[TimeToShineFellas]

And if he is a cheat then the Saints may have a cheat playing for them as well. Rose coloured glasses.

Some forumites attitudes towards no St Kilda player dabbling in substances is a bit akin to the Australian press accusing athletes from other countries of taking drugs, but never any Australian athletes......

[claystreet]

And if he is a cheat then the Saints may have a cheat playing for them as well. Rose coloured glasses.

Some forumites attitudes towards no St Kilda player dabbling in substances is a bit akin to the Australian press accusing athletes from other countries of taking drugs, but never any Australian athletes......

Proof please

[Dan Warna]

get off your high horse like it isnt happening down at st kilda....

its not as if these substances are to difficult to find...old couzy bro just got caught up in it all and its made public...

and all the other poor drug cheats were just caught up in it as well

marion jones and all are just victims of overzealous testing.

rasmussen was tested 17 times before the tour de france.

then sacked for missing 3 tests.

the greek sprinters were sacked for running away from tests as well, they were never tested positive leading up to the athens games either

if a st kilda player was caught doing perfromance enhancing or stimulant drugs in competition and cheating I hope they are immediately stood down by the club pending the appropriate sentence (some are as little as 3 months suspensioin I believe for some stimulants).

instead of the cover up that we are seeing about 'some' clubs.

as for cousins, if he does come back and play I certainly will be calling him a ddrug cheat from the stands.

[TimeToShineFellas]

And if he is a cheat then the Saints may have a cheat playing for them as well. Rose coloured glasses.

Some forumites attitudes towards no St Kilda player dabbling in substances is a bit akin to the Australian press accusing athletes from other countries of taking drugs, but never any Australian athletes......

Proof please

It's an observation and comparison, and is in no way an allegation from my end.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

get off your high horse like it isnt happening down at st kilda....

its not as if these substances are to difficult to find...old couzy bro just got caught up in it all and its made public...

and all the other poor drug cheats were just caught up in it as well

marion jones and all are just victims of overzealous testing.

rasmussen was tested 17 times before the tour de france.

then sacked for missing 3 tests.

the greek sprinters were sacked for running away from tests as well, they were never tested positive leading up to the athens games either

if a st kilda player was caught doing perfromance enhancing or stimulant drugs in competition and cheating I hope they are immediately stood down by the club pending the appropriate sentence (some are as little as 3 months suspensioin I believe for some stimulants).

instead of the cover up that we are seeing about 'some' clubs.

as for cousins, if he does come back and play I certainly will be calling him a ddrug cheat from the stands.

you say that now in the knowledge that noone from our club has been caught out...whilst at the club im referring to

when and if this happens to a specific club the club is always going to be on a hiding to nothing...and people like you will criticize the decision regardless

[Dan Warna]

SP2006 I've been pretty consistant on drug cheating for sometime. if what you are alluding to regarding the drug issue.

1. that is the subject of an injunction so anything I post here may cause trouble for the forum
2. I never wanted any player with a drug issue at our club, again I am not saying that about any player just generically.
3. while I have my opinion player with drug issues for the sake of the decorum on this forum, and the rights of those who moderate and manage the forum, I as well as others will STFU about that issue.

I ahve been very careful to only use publicly published information and facts in debating this issue and have acknowledged the sources of information.

I think a mod picked me up on an issue when I used the incorrect first name of a commissioner WRT drugs so I acknowledge that error.

I have categorically shown that WADA can test out of competition, that methamphetamines is NOT a recreational drug, that methamphetimes is performance enhancing, that the drug testing policy of the AFL is a failure, that publicly acknowledged sources have declared cousins a drug cheat, that publicly acknowledged sources have declared that ben cousins is currently a deregistered player.

so basically the argument of the pro cousins lobby is.

1. everyone does it: der, wheres the evidence
2. he is a fantastic player: yes, I concur
3. what so bad about being a cheat anyway: erm its cheating?!
4. the anti cousins lobby will change their opinion if he comes: no I wont but I will shut about the issue while he is at the club, if he comes.
5. someone else will nab him: thats there moral dillema not ours.
6. he's some sort of victim: rubbish
7. he will deliver a premiership: erm he didn't manage to do so on his own, and yes WCE did win a flag but that was with kerr, cousins, embley, judd, glass, and a raft of others, it wasn't a solo effort.
8. its the environment: well there are allegations the subject of injunctions about victorian based players.

so thats it in a nutshell. I dont want cousins at st kilda because he is a drug cheat.

now if you want cousins at st kilda despite him being a drug cheat, thats an issue for you to deal with.

[JeffDunne]

I agree with most of what you say Dan but I think it's unfair for Cousins to cop all the blame for being a drug cheat. No doubt he needs to accept responsibly alone for his problem but he's had accomplices in the cheating.


IMO his club and the AFL have been more responsible for any cheating than Cousins himself. By their own admission the club allowed him to play knowing he had a problem with substance abuse and the AFL effectively endorsed it by not punishing either the player or the club. It's a complete nonsense to not suspend someone for drug use when they admit to it simply because they didn't fail a drug test. The Marion Jones comparison is a good one - she never failed a test but is to be sanctioned on an admission.

I've been as tough on Ben as anyone in the past but I can't help thinking the latest episodes are making him a scapegoat because they now need one.

As for him coming to St Kilda, IMO it's a huge risk and not one I think we need to take. Having said that though I only know a fraction of the story and I'd hope that if the club were going to look at him then we'd only do so knowing the whole story.

[asiu]

quite the subject ...this one

with respect and consideration to all points of view

imo ,

if he wants in with us , we'd be crazy not to take him

[Dan Warna]

I've been harshly critical of the AFL over this issue.

1. testing
2. lying.

if the AFL regularly tested players, and started slamming 3 month suspensions on players and made the team lose the 4 points, peer group pressure will stop playes cheating.

heck if a player is tested or refuses a test etc on a REGULAR testing scheme (note leading up to competition tour de france riders are tested upwards of a dozen times as well as every day), if they lose the 4 points for one player testing positive, you can be certain peer group pressure will keep the players cleaner.

the AFLs continued head in the sand attitude "there isn't a drug problem" is clearly a furphy, you only have to listen to the PRO cousins lobby who say that its more widespread and everyone is doing it

and secondly the sweeping under the carpet tactic of chain injunctions, indicates to players that they can do what they like the AFL will just rant and rave in private and let them do whatever, just dont get caught in public.

[sunsaint]

SP2006 I've been pretty consistant on drug cheating for sometime. if what you are alluding to regarding the drug issue.

This is way more complicated than yelling from a soap box. Performance enhancing drugs in sport are a problem, recreational drugs have replaced booze as a bigger problem. To think that the saints players are somehow immune from the same temptations is more head in the sand stuff than the AFL's seriousness on the testing regime.

so basically the argument of the pro cousins lobby is.
4. the anti cousins lobby will change their opinion if he comes: no I wont but I will shut about the issue while he is at the club, if he comes.

<snip>
And there lies your problem. You are happy to bag Cousins for all he is worth while he's at another club but if he comes to the Saints you will shut up. Well hasnt that been the WC's problem from the start they ignored it and put up with his antics, not just drug related but his social group as well. By your words you are willing to keep your mouth shut while he's at the Saints, and by inference you must be willing to treat any saints players in the same predicament similarly. You have said that you would want any Saints players stood down, (you should have been true to your words and said sacked but anyway) I really wonder if you would feel the same if Dal Santo or insert your favourite player here...() was caught in the same situation.

now if you want cousins at st kilda despite him being a drug cheat, thats an issue for you to deal with.

No it will be your issue, I maintain its not so much can the Saints afford to deal with Cousins at the club, it is more can we deal with the consequence of him going to another club higher than us.
We have had more than our fair share of trouble makers at the Saints, lets be honest we are the "party club", and yes we have cleaned up the place. But for all good efforts and intentions in the last ten years the GF cup still eludes us. There is no doubt he could be the difference.

[asiu]

Swans rule out Cousins move



http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007 ... 071552.htm

[TimeToShineFellas]

Swans rule out Cousins move

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007 ... 071552.htm

Even Sydney wouldn't touch him............ pretty much says something!

[plugger66]

SP2006 I've been pretty consistant on drug cheating for sometime. if what you are alluding to regarding the drug issue.

1. that is the subject of an injunction so anything I post here may cause trouble for the forum
2. I never wanted any player with a drug issue at our club, again I am not saying that about any player just generically.
3. while I have my opinion player with drug issues for the sake of the decorum on this forum, and the rights of those who moderate and manage the forum, I as well as others will STFU about that issue.

I ahve been very careful to only use publicly published information and facts in debating this issue and have acknowledged the sources of information.

I think a mod picked me up on an issue when I used the incorrect first name of a commissioner WRT drugs so I acknowledge that error.

I have categorically shown that WADA can test out of competition, that methamphetamines is NOT a recreational drug, that methamphetimes is performance enhancing, that the drug testing policy of the AFL is a failure, that publicly acknowledged sources have declared cousins a drug cheat, that publicly acknowledged sources have declared that ben cousins is currently a deregistered player.

so basically the argument of the pro cousins lobby is.

1. everyone does it: der, wheres the evidence
2. he is a fantastic player: yes, I concur
3. what so bad about being a cheat anyway: erm its cheating?!
4. the anti cousins lobby will change their opinion if he comes: no I wont but I will shut about the issue while he is at the club, if he comes.
5. someone else will nab him: thats there moral dillema not ours.
6. he's some sort of victim: rubbish
7. he will deliver a premiership: erm he didn't manage to do so on his own, and yes WCE did win a flag but that was with kerr, cousins, embley, judd, glass, and a raft of others, it wasn't a solo effort.
8. its the environment: well there are allegations the subject of injunctions about victorian based players.

so thats it in a nutshell. I dont want cousins at st kilda because he is a drug cheat.

now if you want cousins at st kilda despite him being a drug cheat, thats an issue for you to deal with.

As you know Dan Ice is only tested on game day for Soccer, athletics and swimming but in some other sports it is tested out of competition as is Grog and Cocaine. I would think AFL is similar to Soccer so it is only performance enhancing on match day as per WADA agreement so he is not cheating having it after a game if he has the stuff at all. But keep going on about cheating. You may be right maybe WADA know less than you.

[Riewoldting]

Dan, where's your evidence that methamphetamine is not a recreational drug? I don't think you've "categorically shown" that at all.

Incidentally, it's methamphetamine. Not methamphetamines. Frankly, I'm surprised that you could permit yourself to consistently make such an error, given your tireless and comprehensive research on the matter.

[Dan Warna]

Dan, where's your evidence that methamphetamine is not a recreational drug? I don't think you've "categorically shown" that at all.

Incidentally, it's methamphetamine. Not methamphetamines. Frankly, I'm surprised that you could permit yourself to consistently make such an error, given your tireless and comprehensive research on the matter.

it is not categorised as a recreational drug but a stimulant by WADA.

it is used for recreation, I should have clarified the statement by saying in the context of sport.

for plugger, i thought I posted a link or a quote from US atheletics team which of its own bat has endorsed a zero tolerence program from 2006 for all drug abuse in its team, including the stuff that reiwoldting has corrected my spelling of above

I have already pointed out if he is an addict then what sort of behaviour will he have with it not in his system?

if he isn't an addict why is he continuing his treatment allegedely?

as for cheating I have pointed in a previous thread that the Hun and the ABC have called him a cheat so I am quite safe from litigation given that I am quoting their statements.

[Riewoldting]

it is not categorised as a recreational drug but a stimulant by WADA.

Nick Riewoldt is categorised not as a man by the AFL, but as a player.

By your classification rationale, I have categorically shown that Nick Riewoldt is not a man.

Amphetamine, methamphetamine, ecstasy, nicotine, cocaine. All stimulants, all recreational.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[Richter]

Yes, but what a man, what a man, what a mighty mighty good man.......

[Bernard Shakey]

EPO, testosterone are both recreational, allow you to go all night.
Also allow you to perform your chosen sport at a much higher level.

This rubbish about drugs being performance enhancing or recreational is a furphy. If they are illegal that's it. Forget the rubbish about whether the law is just or not. Heroin and speed were not illicit until the 1950s, they are now. Nobody had ever heard of ecstacy before the 90s and LSD was only concocted in the 60s.

These chemicals are not good for the well being of human beings. Neither are alcohol and nicotine, but governments tax them and won't do anything about them unless forced to by the electorate.

It is not in the best interests of sportspeople and the St Kilda Football Club to have anything to do with these substances.

[Ghost Like]

And if he is a cheat then the Saints may have a cheat playing for them as well. Rose coloured glasses.

Some forumites attitudes towards no St Kilda player dabbling in substances is a bit akin to the Australian press accusing athletes from other countries of taking drugs, but never any Australian athletes......

I prefer to use an analogy much like the satellite images over Southern California, there is a hell of a lot of smoke, I cannot see the fires but I can reasonably assume there is one or several going on. This appears to be the case with the Eagles and a couple of other clubs in the league. Until I see some smoke over St Kilda, it is pretty hard to say with any confidence that a St Kilda player is dabbling.

There does seem to be two camps in this Cousins debate:

1) I don't really give a stuff about Cousins and I don't want him at the club

2) I don't really give a stuff about Cousins but I'll have him at the club if he wins us a flag

I am in the first category.

Cousins needs to complete his treatment, get himself right and then resume his career. At best it would not be until 2009 and that would be after whatever club he would go to requesting weekly tests throughout 2008. Watching him on the news, he appears to be an extremely charismatic, well spoken person who is a natural leader. This in itself means that for the good of our younger players he would have to be squeeky clean.

The Board, the players, the coaches, the administration and the sponsors would all have to be asked whether they would have Cousins at the Club and all would have to say 'yes' for it to happen. IMO

[Iceman234]

Oh huge bump.

Just over 12 months since this thread was active.

Have enjoyed going over some old Benny threads, and it's good to see that most have actually stuck to their guns over what they think/thought of Benny and his/their own morals.

Now that it's getting closer, will be even more interesting..

[The Saintsational Man]

Oh huge bump.

Just over 12 months since this thread was active.

Have enjoyed going over some old Benny threads, and it's good to see that most have actually stuck to their guns over what they think/thought of Benny and his/their own morals.

Now that it's getting closer, will be even more interesting..

Should he become a Saint, I will be interested in your progress as the year goes on, as to whether you come round to him should he live up to the expectations of;

- The positive posters or
- The negative posters.

But I guess the negative side is an easy script, the old "I told you so" routine, but if it does turn out to be a successful move, should be good listening to all the "Expected" praise that will come his way and of course there will still be negative vibes and those shall be an interesting read also.

[joffaboy]

Nice bump Iceman (nice nic considering the subject too )

Always get a little worried when a year old thread is bumped. I am glad to say I can stick by my initial opinion.

Welcome Benny.

[GrumpyOne]

Cannot see what the fuss is about.

Its quite simple really.

If he is clean, I want him to play for us.

If he is not clean, F*** him off.

Nothing else really to say, is there?

[Saints Premiers 2008]

reiwoldting was a good poster

[GrumpyOne]

reiwoldting was a good poster

Was?

What is he now?