2004-St Kilda v Geel v PA

Milan Faletic · Fri 28 Sep 2007 12:15am

St Kilda-1 goal from GF. Lots of injuries. PA win flag

Geel-Who? (2006 No finals. Retain coach)

PA-Win flag.

2007

St Kilda-Same team, few losses of players, few gains. Out of 8

Geel-GF

PA-Only 11 players from 2004 Premiership but playing in 2007 GF

Question-What have we done wrong?

Saints Premiers 2008 · Fri 28 Sep 2007 12:20am

the best 22 has not been on the field ever...or even been close playing at full capacity (i.e not coming back from injury)

look at geelong...

at full power....full strength we are better than them...any anyone else in the league

hmmm...your posts are getting depressing...

chook23 · Post: # 465256Post **chook23** » Fri 28 Sep 2007 12:24am

We had a near full strength side in 2004 prelim

Why drag this what ifs up though????

IF

saintdooley · Fri 28 Sep 2007 12:56am

what have we done wrong?
wouldnt it be easier to ask what havent we done worng?

The_Dud · Post: # 465283Post **The_Dud** » Fri 28 Sep 2007 1:32am

we could have easily gotten to the 2004 and 2005 GF's if for a stroke of luck, both games could've gone either way, nothing much between the teams, they just didn't go our way, whether we were the better team or not

Milan Faletic · Fri 28 Sep 2007 1:37am

chook23 wrote:We had a near full strength side in 2004 prelim

Why drag this what ifs up though????

IF

Hey chook23

I know what you are saying.

Just reminiscing. Time to move on-true.

Just feeling s***ty because I hate that Geelong and PA are there and we are not. I feel bad for Roo and Banger. They deserve better.

Bowey Boy · Post: # 465314Post **Bowey Boy** » Fri 28 Sep 2007 9:15am

Had the 2004 home game against Port not been played in Tassie but in Melbourne we would have won it. Then we would have finished top of the ladder. Then all our finals would have been in Melbourne. Then we would be polishing the silverware right now !!!!

Then again....

spert · Post: # 465318Post **spert** » Fri 28 Sep 2007 9:28am

I'm tempted to comment on that final in 2004, but let's put it to rest and look forward to a great 2008 - I see we have a new fitness guru, ex Swans just signed up, we've re-signed players, we have new recruiting personnel, and the board has just approved $500K spending..it's a pity some want to drive a wedge in the club now...C'mon 2008 season!

The Saintsational Man · Fri 28 Sep 2007 9:35am

Saints Premiers 2006 wrote:the best 22 has not been on the field ever...or even been close playing at full capacity (i.e not coming back from injury)

look at geelong...

at full power....full strength we are better than them...any anyone else in the league

hmmm...your posts are getting depressing...

I say that constantly to any person who bags out the Saints.....

We've never been at full strength.....never with our so-called "Super List".....

Our 2007 List (In number order)
Aaron Hamill (Never Played)
Lenny Hayes (Came good mid-season)
Fraser Gehrig (Always plays injured)
Leigh Montagna -Excellent
Nick Riewoldt - Excellent
Luke Ball (OP - Need i say more)
Michael Gardiner (Yeh well wasn't that heart breaking)
Brendon Goddard (Even more heart breaking)
Justin Koschitzke (First "Almost" full year on the park)
Samuel Fisher - Excellent
Nick Dal Santo - Excellent (I expect more though)
Matthew Maguire - (That fu*n leg)
Robert Harvey - Excellent as always

There are 13 players in that list.....only 5 managed to have a good run with-out any major injuries all season.....

I excluded a few (Gram) cause this was our team at the start of the year that was expected to do well.....

That list we had was better than ANYONES.....

The problem was we couldn't get them on the park.....

Show that list to any1.....theses no way they can argue.....

The Saintsational Man · Fri 28 Sep 2007 9:47am

Remember there are 7 All-Australians on that 2007 listâ€¦..

With a big chance that 1 day;

Montagna, Goddard, Kosi & Fisher will be All-Australian

Our 2008 List (Hypothetical)
Lenny Hayes
Leigh Montagna
Nick Riewoldt
Luke Ball
Michael Gardiner
Brendon Goddard
Justin Koschitzke
Samuel Fisher
Nick Dal Santo
Matthew Maguire
Robert Harvey
Jason Gram
Xavier Clarke

Now with Hamill & Gehrig retired we see Gram and Clarke move into our "Super List" I personally expect big things from these guys in the coming years, especially Gram.....

Don't be surprised if he gets an All-AUSTRALIAN nod one day.....

Hamill - Never played
Gehrig - Big loss but we must move on.....

Our windows not closed Ladies and Gentlemen.....

I believe it was just ajar.

The Saintsational Man · Fri 28 Sep 2007 9:48am

And yeah i know Geelong had 9 All-Australians this year.....

But thats HORSE SH*T!!!

And everyone knows it.....

St DAC · Post: # 465330Post **St DAC** » Fri 28 Sep 2007 9:54am

Milan, you are short changing Geelong there. In 2004 they were also a kick away from a GF; Brisbane only just beat them in the PF. They were also a kick away from a PF in 2005 (after the heroics of Nick Davis) against the eventual premiers. it was last year they were quite poor (after a blistering start in the first couple of games). They've been a very good side for 4 years; this year they've managed to put it all together for a banner year, and if they knock off PA tomorrow it will probably be their best ever year.

We could learn a bit from that .

It's worth noting that except for this year we pretty much broke even with them since 2004, so personnel wise we are not too far away. We need to get our guys fit and durable to give ourselves a decent crack at a flag.

rodgerfox · Post: # 465335Post **rodgerfox** » Fri 28 Sep 2007 10:10am

Saints Premiers 2006 wrote:the best 22 has not been on the field ever...or even been close playing at full capacity (i.e not coming back from injury)

look at geelong...

at full power....full strength we are better than them...any anyone else in the league

Correct.

Look at all the premiers over the past 10 years, and you'll find the common denominator is their health.

Then look at the teams that 'disappointed' and you'll find the same common denominator.

chook23 · Post: # 465339Post **chook23** » Fri 28 Sep 2007 10:13am

St DAC wrote:Milan, you are short changing Geelong there. In 2004 they were also a kick away from a GF; Brisbane only just beat them in the PF. They were also a kick away from a PF in 2005 (after the heroics of Nick Davis) against the eventual premiers. it was last year they were quite poor (after a blistering start in the first couple of games). They've been a very good side for 4 years; this year they've managed to put it all together for a banner year, and if they knock off PA tomorrow it will probably be their best ever year.

We could learn a bit from that .

It's worth noting that except for this year we pretty much broke even with them since 2004, so personnel wise we are not too far away. We need to get our guys fit and durable to give ourselves a decent crack at a flag.

It will be a very different playing list in 2008 compared to 2004.

Even if fit.

I

St DAC · Post: # 465368Post **St DAC** » Fri 28 Sep 2007 10:50am

Yes, it will. All clubs transition personnel; Geelong have as well, but they've maintained their core while still retiring older players and trimming the dead wood, as we are trying to do.

Oh When the Saints · Fri 28 Sep 2007 10:59am

The following Geelong players have retired since 2004:

Riccardi, Graham

The following St Kilda players have retired since 2004:

Gehrig, Powell, Peckett, Thompson, Voss, Hamill, Penny, Jones

2 vs. 8

chook23 · Post: # 465381Post **chook23** » Fri 28 Sep 2007 11:04am

Oh When the Saints wrote:The following Geelong players have retired since 2004:

Riccardi, Graham

The following St Kilda players have retired since 2004:

Gehrig, Powell, Peckett, Thompson, Voss, Hamill, Penny, Jones

2 vs. 8

That's why I have said our best chance given the player list was 2004

(certainly easier to say in hindsight) but also mentioned this to many SS

Given age and maturity 2007 Geelong their best chance

We did not take ours.....will cats??

St DAC · Post: # 465382Post **St DAC** » Fri 28 Sep 2007 11:05am

Oh When the Saints wrote:The following Geelong players have retired since 2004:

Riccardi, Graham

The following St Kilda players have retired since 2004:

Gehrig, Powell, Peckett, Thompson, Voss, Hamill, Penny, Jones

2 vs. 8

And your point is what exactly?

Our list was a bit older than theirs in 2004. You'd expect us to have a few more retirees since then.

Their core of players is quite stable; it is this core that were poor last year for them, that have turned it around this year.

Our core is less durable than theirs, and the elder statesmen (Harves excepted

) have moved on to be replaced by younger players. This transition occurs in all teams.

Oh When the Saints · Fri 28 Sep 2007 11:14am

St DAC wrote:And your point is what exactly?

Our list was a bit older than theirs in 2004. You'd expect us to have a few more retirees since then.

Their core of players is quite stable; it is this core that were poor last year for them, that have turned it around this year.

Our core is less durable than theirs, and the elder statesmen (Harves excepted ) have moved on to be replaced by younger players. This transition occurs in all teams.

Look at the quality of those players who have retired.

We have lost 8 starting 22 players since 2004 through retirement.

The Cats have lost 2 starting 22 players.

A lot easier to replace 2 blokes that it is to replace 8 blokes.

St Kilda's list was significantly older than Geelong's in 2004. Significantly.

Their list was stronger though (over the long-term). Mark Thompson said it at the time and it is evident with hindsight. The Cats had a much larger core group of talented young players than we did.

They just didn't have the senior players like the Saints. Now they do have the right mix of experience and have kept it on the park.

Our elder statesman have moved on and have been replaced by younger players - I agree with you.
- But are those replacements as talented?
- Are they as experienced and hardened as footballers?
- Do they have sufficient depth underneath them?

Basically my point was - Geelong and St Kilda had VERY different lists in 2004, and to compare the results (Prelim Finals) was like comparing chalk and cheese.

St Kilda were in a far better position to challenge for a flag in 2004 than Geelong were ... conversely, the Cats are in a better position than St Kilda to challenge for a flag in 2007/2008.

Oh When the Saints · Fri 28 Sep 2007 11:16am

BTW - I'm not saying we can't win a flag with the list we have.

We can as long as they are all on the park and fit. A very capable list for winning a premiership.

Dan Warna · Post: # 465394Post **Dan Warna** » Fri 28 Sep 2007 11:18am

look in late 06 we beat geelong.

the team that beat geelong wasn't that different to the team that lost to geelong in 07, for both sides.

the difference? confidence and injuries.

i think the only notable missing from the game against geelong that we beat in 06 was bartel.

confidence can go a long way. also we've been told we are 'adjusting' to a new game plan and we will see the results in 08.

you dont have to go back to 04 to see we had the players to match it.

and TBH FG in 08 if he could have been persuaded to go around again, would be better than f.ebola.

Oh When the Saints · Fri 28 Sep 2007 11:44am

Dan Warna wrote:the team that beat geelong wasn't that different to the team that lost to geelong in 07, for both sides.

St Kilda - 2006
R. Harvey, C. Ackland, J. Peckett, B. Goddard, X. Clarke, A. Thompson, B. Voss

All missing from our 2007 side.

The Cats had N. Ablett, Kelly, Tenace, Varcoe, Stokes and Bartel all missing from their 2006 side.

But I agree, it is injuries and confidence that are the main factors ... a lot of the game is played above the shoulders.

stevos2151 · Fri 28 Sep 2007 11:47am

Geelong play as a team.

We don't and never have. We've always relied on individuals.
Until such time as we start playing for each other and get some god damn grunt we will never win the big one.

Dan Warna · Post: # 465424Post **Dan Warna** » Fri 28 Sep 2007 11:52am

Oh When the Saints wrote:
Dan Warna wrote:the team that beat geelong wasn't that different to the team that lost to geelong in 07, for both sides.

St Kilda - 2006
R. Harvey, C. Ackland, J. Peckett, B. Goddard, X. Clarke, A. Thompson, B. Voss

All missing from our 2007 side.

The Cats had N. Ablett, Kelly, Tenace, Varcoe, Stokes and Bartel all missing from their 2006 side.

But I agree, it is injuries and confidence that are the main factors ... a lot of the game is played above the shoulders.

only bartel and kelly of that lot is proven quality, thompson, and voss were available for selection.

but i think the turn around in points was something like 70 points?

we did get a belting from them early in the season, and the turn around between 06 early rounds and 06 late rounds was about 50 or 60 points as well.

also the team that served it to the WCE midseason in 07, wasn't taht different to the WCE team that challenged collingwood.

IMO we have the talent certainly, the question is can we get an injury free run and will the coach be able to extract that talent from the players.

certainly many here believe RL is the messiah, Im not so convinced but I see little alternative amongst the coaches in the wings. many either have too big tickets on themselves, or completely lack the fire in teh belly as someone said.

St DAC · Post: # 465461Post **St DAC** » Fri 28 Sep 2007 12:39pm

I agree that confidence and durability/fitness of core players is the key to a competitive season. whether that results in a flag requires a touch of good fortune as well; the Cats have had plenty of that so far this year, we've been of the wrong end of fortune over the past few years.

Mind you, their year could turn very ugly very quickly if Port win tomorrow!