AFL All Australian shortlist
Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators
-
- SS Hall of Fame
- Posts: 2246
- Joined: Thu 18 Mar 2004 5:14pm
- Location: Level 1 Aisle 37 Row G Telstra Dome
I think Joey had a much better year than the Dal. But in comparison to some other midfielders i wouldn't have either of them in AA contention. IMO Lockyer was unlucky not to get nominated as too was Scotland.
Bleeding Red, Black and White for 38 years!
Life Motto - Fortius Quo Fidelius
Raph "Cult Hero" Clarke Fan Club.
Life Motto - Fortius Quo Fidelius
Raph "Cult Hero" Clarke Fan Club.
- BAM! (shhhh)
- SS Hall of Fame
- Posts: 2134
- Joined: Thu 24 May 2007 5:23pm
- Location: The little voice inside your head
Purely on the math, Dal was around 80% efficiency, Joey around 70% (which is about average for AFL mids). 10% of 22 is 2.2 so he's already up to 24, and then you consider where Dal gets the ball, how much of his own ball he has to win, that he's being followed game in and game out, and you start to build up a picture. Disagree if you want to, it's certainly subjective, but I think if anything it's an understatement to say a 22 possession game from Dal is worth 25 from most other mids.Halo Halo wrote:BAM! (shhhh) wrote:Good year from Joey. IMO, Dal was better. A 22 posession game from Dal is worth 25+ from most other mids, including Joey. Joey probably had more visible touches, and in his first high profile year, it's not surprising that a lot of people are rating him so high, he definately deserves kudos. IMO, Nick Dal Santo was St. Kilda's best midfielder across 2007 though, while taking the best opposition taggers.
I really doubt that dal santo was St Kilda's best mid-fielder - I think his repuation carried him through.. What an over-statement to say that a 22 posession game from Dal is worth 25+ from most other mid-fielders..
My money's on Joey to win the club's b&f (i think either Riewoldt or Montagna would be favourite) and surely he jf he won the b&f would you have to agree that he was our best!!
On the b&f, yeah, of course if he wins it'll speak well of him- but I've argued with other on this before, I don't really rate club b&f's as a player rating system beyond the winner... they're much too tilted towards the guys who play the most games (not that this isn't valuable in and of itself) either in visible roles (Roo, Ball), or in coaches roles (i.e. Baker). I expect Montagna to finish behind (funnily enough) Nick Reiwoldt, Sam Fisher, and Nick Dal Santo. I certainly don't think that if someone else were to sneak in front of Joey that it'd cheapen what has to have been the best improvement (IMO of course) from anyone on the Saints list including Fisher.
"Everything comes to he who hustles while he waits"
- Henry Ford
- Henry Ford
- Joffa Burns
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 7081
- Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 5:48pm
- Has thanked: 1871 times
- Been thanked: 1570 times
- Oh When the Saints
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 5621
- Joined: Wed 29 Mar 2006 4:25pm
- Location: QLD
- Contact:
When I said that Joey should have made it ahead of Dal, I wasn't saying that Dal Santo had a poor year ... he has been very good for us.
I just think Montagna has performed better than Dal Santo ... I disagree that Dal "does more" with the ball ... Joey would lead in I/50's and leads in running bounces, and that sort of run and carry, and forward delivery, is important for us.
Anyway, Dal won't get in ... Rooey and Chips will.
I just think Montagna has performed better than Dal Santo ... I disagree that Dal "does more" with the ball ... Joey would lead in I/50's and leads in running bounces, and that sort of run and carry, and forward delivery, is important for us.
Anyway, Dal won't get in ... Rooey and Chips will.
They should only play AFL games now when it's raining. Slow games of footy are so much better to watch.
- Spinner
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 8502
- Joined: Sat 02 Dec 2006 3:40pm
- Location: Victoria
- Has thanked: 185 times
- Been thanked: 133 times
Oh When the Saints wrote:When I said that Joey should have made it ahead of Dal, I wasn't saying that Dal Santo had a poor year ... he has been very good for us.
I just think Montagna has performed better than Dal Santo ... I disagree that Dal "does more" with the ball ... Joey would lead in I/50's and leads in running bounces, and that sort of run and carry, and forward delivery, is important for us.
Anyway, Dal won't get in ... Rooey and Chips will.
Whatever dude.
I dont know what game you watch....BUT Whenever Dal gets a possesssion it ALWAYS gets to a teammate.
You really need to cut this crap of solely using numbers like "running bounces" in your arguements because they make them sound really cheap.
- Oh When the Saints
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 5621
- Joined: Wed 29 Mar 2006 4:25pm
- Location: QLD
- Contact:
Montagna is a beautiful kick ... have look at his delivery to Riewoldt and Gehrig against Fremantle.
On the other hand, watch Dal Santo panic and turn it over against the Eagles ... very uncharacteristic, but he gave it up a couple of times.
Using evidence is a valid indicator of performance ... it's better to back your argument up with a stat like running bounces ... proves that your own observations are correct.
On the other hand, watch Dal Santo panic and turn it over against the Eagles ... very uncharacteristic, but he gave it up a couple of times.
Using evidence is a valid indicator of performance ... it's better to back your argument up with a stat like running bounces ... proves that your own observations are correct.
They should only play AFL games now when it's raining. Slow games of footy are so much better to watch.
-
- SS Life Member
- Posts: 3465
- Joined: Fri 29 Oct 2004 1:01pm
- Has thanked: 91 times
- Been thanked: 162 times
Dal Santo had 30 less disposals than Montagna. He also had 31 less clangers. He averaged half as many clangers per game. So don't try and pretend that Joey was more effective. The stats just don't support that.Oh When the Saints wrote:Montagna is a beautiful kick ... have look at his delivery to Riewoldt and Gehrig against Fremantle.
On the other hand, watch Dal Santo panic and turn it over against the Eagles ... very uncharacteristic, but he gave it up a couple of times.
- Oh When the Saints
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 5621
- Joined: Wed 29 Mar 2006 4:25pm
- Location: QLD
- Contact:
Dal Santo also had a lot less kicks per game and many more handballs ... pretty hard to make clangers by hand, but a lot easier to make mistakes when you are kicking under pressure.
From the matches I have watched, I see no evidence that Montagna's skill level or disposal efficiency has prevented him from being a worthy AA nominee ahead of Dal Santo in 2007 ...
From the matches I have watched, I see no evidence that Montagna's skill level or disposal efficiency has prevented him from being a worthy AA nominee ahead of Dal Santo in 2007 ...
They should only play AFL games now when it's raining. Slow games of footy are so much better to watch.
-
- Club Player
- Posts: 235
- Joined: Wed 21 Dec 2005 5:26pm
- Location: Cave underneath Bay 17 Moorabbin
-
- SS Life Member
- Posts: 3465
- Joined: Fri 29 Oct 2004 1:01pm
- Has thanked: 91 times
- Been thanked: 162 times
Dal's kick-to-handball ratio was 3:2. He was hardly handball happy. He also won a lot more of his possessions in contested situations than Joey did. So if anyone was 'under pressure', it was Dal. And he had about an 82% kicking efficiency, which was among the best in the league. As Bam said, Joey's was a lot closer to 70%. If you do the math, they had about the same number of effective kicks, and Joey had twice as many clangers.Oh When the Saints wrote:Dal Santo also had a lot less kicks per game and many more handballs ... pretty hard to make clangers by hand, but a lot easier to make mistakes when you are kicking under pressure.
Joey's had a tremendous season, but if he wants to be AA, he's going to have to work on his delivery. There are guys who have won more ball and used it better than Joey has. The AA selectors aren't going to go for somebody who's among the leaders in the clanger count.From the matches I have watched, I see no evidence that Montagna's skill level or disposal efficiency has prevented him from being a worthy AA nominee ahead of Dal Santo in 2007 ...
- The_Dud
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 13781
- Joined: Sun 27 May 2007 9:53pm
- Location: Bendigo
- Has thanked: 1313 times
- Been thanked: 2051 times
Dal is easily the best kick under pressure in our team, probably best kick overall
he wins much more contested football that montagna, i can barely remember montagna winning any contested football, he was more a reciever of the clearence, where he could then run and bounce it towards our forward line
i still rate Dals year better than montagnas
but by Dals standards, his year was ok, and by Montagnas standards, his year was excellent
he wins much more contested football that montagna, i can barely remember montagna winning any contested football, he was more a reciever of the clearence, where he could then run and bounce it towards our forward line
i still rate Dals year better than montagnas
but by Dals standards, his year was ok, and by Montagnas standards, his year was excellent
All posters are equal, but some posters are more equal than others.
-
- SS Life Member
- Posts: 2523
- Joined: Mon 27 Jun 2005 1:27pm
- Location: Abiding
- Has thanked: 171 times
- Been thanked: 375 times
- BAM! (shhhh)
- SS Hall of Fame
- Posts: 2134
- Joined: Thu 24 May 2007 5:23pm
- Location: The little voice inside your head
I was unclear, I apologise. I was referring to kicking efficiency, not disposal efficiency.Oh When the Saints wrote:Dal Santo also had a lot less kicks per game and many more handballs ... pretty hard to make clangers by hand, but a lot easier to make mistakes when you are kicking under pressure.
From the matches I have watched, I see no evidence that Montagna's skill level or disposal efficiency has prevented him from being a worthy AA nominee ahead of Dal Santo in 2007 ...
Checked the footy record from R22 last night. League average k eff. (for mids) is 73.7... Joey's k eff is 73.9, Dal's is 82.2. Joey averages 3 more kicks a game. Dal wins about 10% more of his ball in contested situations, and generally there is a dropoff in k eff relating to contested possession.
I'd go out on a limb and bet that his kicking efficiency will be turn out to be top 10 among AFL mids when the numbers come out for those of us who don't subscribe to champion data.
Obviously, I'm missing a rounds worth of data in those #s, but Dal's kicked at that level for years, so I'd be surprised if there was massive change.
In the light of compromise, let me say that when an argument for who has had a better year is built so heavily on numbers it leans to what numbers you value. While obviously I'm comfortable that my argument is supported, if you rate running bounces more highly than kicking efficiency and contested posession %, I am willing to concede you'd pick a faster & (possibly) more exciting AA team than I would... even if I bet mine would cream yours on the scoreboard:)
"Everything comes to he who hustles while he waits"
- Henry Ford
- Henry Ford