But Dan, the Geelong teams you mentioned were all at or near the top of the ladder in those years. In 1989 particularly they were only knocked off by an all-time great side ... Hawthorn 88-89. And '92 and '94 West Coast were fabulous sides as well.
Here in 2007, it's R22, and we don't yet know if we will play finals this year ... and if we do, it's only just. That is not indicative of '4 elites and 8 guns' IMO.
How many elites do the Saints have???
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Im just pointing out, even very good teams have off years.
did the melbourne players disappear in the odd years? what happened to the great geelong side in the between years?
IMO 06 we underperformed due to injury and bad luck by having critical injuries at key times, also the 06 draw was harder than the 07 draw.
concievably if lenny wasn't injuried we would ahve done even better in the back 10, and if we didn't get 5 injuries IN GAME (plus we had 2 underdone players which we were running up for the next week) we would have finished at least 6th.
and it is likely we would have been competitive against freo leading to another prelim MISSING maguire, hamill, lenny, powell amongst others.
in 07, we have played significantly differently to 06, or as some one argue implemented the coaches plans less effectively in 07 than 06. In addition we have had significant injuries, and bad lack.
The players are still there, they haven't lost their ability, it is up to the coach to extract the players ability and get them to operate in a synergistic fashion.
Leigh Matthews Brions are incorporating a lot of late draft picks with less talent than st kilda has at its disposal and are playing synergistically. Of course they get blown out of the water as the youngsters don't hold it (like North a couple of years ago when harris, wells, etc were new to the team) but look to be on the rise.
St Kilda has the core of players, and the 'outer' players have talent, we've seen it, it is up to the players and the coaching staff to get them to operate.
you may have a different opinion and fair call, but IMHO we have a top 4 list without a doubt, and when we do 'click' as we did for 2 1/2 quarters twice against the no.1 side WCE we showed what we can do, as we did against concievably the no.2 side sydney.
It is up to the coach to improve discipline, improve the execution of skills and decisioni making etc.
Goddard and gram are a case in example of a player that improved dramaticin 06, and you could argue than montagna improved dramatically in 07.
we have the list, I have no doubt, keeping it together this contract negotiation period is an imperitive.
did the melbourne players disappear in the odd years? what happened to the great geelong side in the between years?
IMO 06 we underperformed due to injury and bad luck by having critical injuries at key times, also the 06 draw was harder than the 07 draw.
concievably if lenny wasn't injuried we would ahve done even better in the back 10, and if we didn't get 5 injuries IN GAME (plus we had 2 underdone players which we were running up for the next week) we would have finished at least 6th.
and it is likely we would have been competitive against freo leading to another prelim MISSING maguire, hamill, lenny, powell amongst others.
in 07, we have played significantly differently to 06, or as some one argue implemented the coaches plans less effectively in 07 than 06. In addition we have had significant injuries, and bad lack.
The players are still there, they haven't lost their ability, it is up to the coach to extract the players ability and get them to operate in a synergistic fashion.
Leigh Matthews Brions are incorporating a lot of late draft picks with less talent than st kilda has at its disposal and are playing synergistically. Of course they get blown out of the water as the youngsters don't hold it (like North a couple of years ago when harris, wells, etc were new to the team) but look to be on the rise.
St Kilda has the core of players, and the 'outer' players have talent, we've seen it, it is up to the players and the coaching staff to get them to operate.
you may have a different opinion and fair call, but IMHO we have a top 4 list without a doubt, and when we do 'click' as we did for 2 1/2 quarters twice against the no.1 side WCE we showed what we can do, as we did against concievably the no.2 side sydney.
It is up to the coach to improve discipline, improve the execution of skills and decisioni making etc.
Goddard and gram are a case in example of a player that improved dramaticin 06, and you could argue than montagna improved dramatically in 07.
we have the list, I have no doubt, keeping it together this contract negotiation period is an imperitive.
Bewaire krime, da krimson bolt is comeing to yure nayborhood to smach krime
SHUT UP KRIME!
SHUT UP KRIME!
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rodgerfox
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People associate having 'elite' footballers with success, and people associate high draft picks with 'elite' players.
I don't entirely agree with it.
Having players who are playing elite football is what you need.
Some people look elite because of the people around them. Some people appear 'elite' as they carry out a particular job very, very well.
How often do you see a star player move clubs only to be middle of the road at his new club?
Are they actually elite? Or are they very good at playing a role? Did they have other stars taking the opposition heat off them each week?
Was Kane Johnson elite at Adelaide? Some say yes. He's certainly not now, and never has been since he arrived at Punt Road.
Headland? Akermanis?
Some guys are freaks. These are guys who will be elite no matter where they play. However, there aren't 30 of these guys in the AFL.
I reckon there's probably only 9 or 10.
Scarlett, Max, Simon Black, Kirk, R Harvey, J Brown, Judd, Buckley and Cousins are really the only ones I can think of.
These are guys who consistently perform at the elite level (ie. much better than everyone else).
They do it against good opponents, bad opponents, when their team is getting beaten, when their team is winning, when their team is suffering injuries and they have to carry the load, when they have to play different roles, and in varying conditions. In big games too.
To me, that's what elite is.
Players who are capable of 'playing elite football' is very different I think. There's plenty of these guys around. Dal Santo can play elite footy, but isn't to me (yet) an elite player. He gets beaten too often at this stage. Roo can play elite footy, but until he kicks straight consistently he just can't be called elite for mine.
When he does kick straight however, he will be the best around by a fair way - he's that good.
Fraser Gehrig certainly is capable of playing elite footy.
Some players may be elite, but haven't really had the chance to prove it - ie. McLeod dominating whilst Goodwin, Edwards and Riccuito aren't in the same team with him. He may do it, but we haven't seen it yet.
Darren Glass without his midfield dominating every week may be another, Dean Cox ditto.
What is more important than having elite players (which you may get with high draft picks), is having your players playing elite footy. You simply can't get a list full of elite players - there simply aren't enough of them around and if you do get them - the salary cap dictates that you can't keep them.
So, the coaches job is to get each player on the list playing elite footy - regardless of what number in the draft they were taken at.
I think that most players in the AFL, are capable of playing elite footy at some tage during their career. Not all, but most. The coaches job of building a list is getting the large majority of them 'clicking' at the same time. Getting everyone playing elite footy together.
This is why such a big deal is made about players ages, and the age brackets of premiership clubs. Players often play their best footy between 23-26. If you build a list with a core of players at this age, the odds of them playing their elite footy at the same time is much better.
Expecting guys in their 30s or in their teens to be playing elite footy isn't realistic.
The danger in chasing 'elite' players - whther it be via the draft or via a trade, is that you don't often know whether they are infact an elite player or simply a player who is playing elite football. And then the question is, is it a guarantee that he will play elite footy at our club?
That's my two cents on the topic.
I don't entirely agree with it.
Having players who are playing elite football is what you need.
Some people look elite because of the people around them. Some people appear 'elite' as they carry out a particular job very, very well.
How often do you see a star player move clubs only to be middle of the road at his new club?
Are they actually elite? Or are they very good at playing a role? Did they have other stars taking the opposition heat off them each week?
Was Kane Johnson elite at Adelaide? Some say yes. He's certainly not now, and never has been since he arrived at Punt Road.
Headland? Akermanis?
Some guys are freaks. These are guys who will be elite no matter where they play. However, there aren't 30 of these guys in the AFL.
I reckon there's probably only 9 or 10.
Scarlett, Max, Simon Black, Kirk, R Harvey, J Brown, Judd, Buckley and Cousins are really the only ones I can think of.
These are guys who consistently perform at the elite level (ie. much better than everyone else).
They do it against good opponents, bad opponents, when their team is getting beaten, when their team is winning, when their team is suffering injuries and they have to carry the load, when they have to play different roles, and in varying conditions. In big games too.
To me, that's what elite is.
Players who are capable of 'playing elite football' is very different I think. There's plenty of these guys around. Dal Santo can play elite footy, but isn't to me (yet) an elite player. He gets beaten too often at this stage. Roo can play elite footy, but until he kicks straight consistently he just can't be called elite for mine.
When he does kick straight however, he will be the best around by a fair way - he's that good.
Fraser Gehrig certainly is capable of playing elite footy.
Some players may be elite, but haven't really had the chance to prove it - ie. McLeod dominating whilst Goodwin, Edwards and Riccuito aren't in the same team with him. He may do it, but we haven't seen it yet.
Darren Glass without his midfield dominating every week may be another, Dean Cox ditto.
What is more important than having elite players (which you may get with high draft picks), is having your players playing elite footy. You simply can't get a list full of elite players - there simply aren't enough of them around and if you do get them - the salary cap dictates that you can't keep them.
So, the coaches job is to get each player on the list playing elite footy - regardless of what number in the draft they were taken at.
I think that most players in the AFL, are capable of playing elite footy at some tage during their career. Not all, but most. The coaches job of building a list is getting the large majority of them 'clicking' at the same time. Getting everyone playing elite footy together.
This is why such a big deal is made about players ages, and the age brackets of premiership clubs. Players often play their best footy between 23-26. If you build a list with a core of players at this age, the odds of them playing their elite footy at the same time is much better.
Expecting guys in their 30s or in their teens to be playing elite footy isn't realistic.
The danger in chasing 'elite' players - whther it be via the draft or via a trade, is that you don't often know whether they are infact an elite player or simply a player who is playing elite football. And then the question is, is it a guarantee that he will play elite footy at our club?
That's my two cents on the topic.
Who is Max. Surely not our Max. As good as he is and was he was never elite. Also Kirk i doubt has never been elite. And surely as you get older and lose some of your skills, pace etc you are no longer elite. Eg Harvs, Buckley and Black. Cox is an elite player. Best ruckman in the comp by a mile. Same as Glass. Best FB by a fair way.rodgerfox wrote:People associate having 'elite' footballers with success, and people associate high draft picks with 'elite' players.
I don't entirely agree with it.
Having players who are playing elite football is what you need.
Some people look elite because of the people around them. Some people appear 'elite' as they carry out a particular job very, very well.
How often do you see a star player move clubs only to be middle of the road at his new club?
Are they actually elite? Or are they very good at playing a role? Did they have other stars taking the opposition heat off them each week?
Was Kane Johnson elite at Adelaide? Some say yes. He's certainly not now, and never has been since he arrived at Punt Road.
Headland? Akermanis?
Some guys are freaks. These are guys who will be elite no matter where they play. However, there aren't 30 of these guys in the AFL.
I reckon there's probably only 9 or 10.
Scarlett, Max, Simon Black, Kirk, R Harvey, J Brown, Judd, Buckley and Cousins are really the only ones I can think of.
These are guys who consistently perform at the elite level (ie. much better than everyone else).
They do it against good opponents, bad opponents, when their team is getting beaten, when their team is winning, when their team is suffering injuries and they have to carry the load, when they have to play different roles, and in varying conditions. In big games too.
To me, that's what elite is.
Players who are capable of 'playing elite football' is very different I think. There's plenty of these guys around. Dal Santo can play elite footy, but isn't to me (yet) an elite player. He gets beaten too often at this stage. Roo can play elite footy, but until he kicks straight consistently he just can't be called elite for mine.
When he does kick straight however, he will be the best around by a fair way - he's that good.
Fraser Gehrig certainly is capable of playing elite footy.
Some players may be elite, but haven't really had the chance to prove it - ie. McLeod dominating whilst Goodwin, Edwards and Riccuito aren't in the same team with him. He may do it, but we haven't seen it yet.
Darren Glass without his midfield dominating every week may be another, Dean Cox ditto.
What is more important than having elite players (which you may get with high draft picks), is having your players playing elite footy. You simply can't get a list full of elite players - there simply aren't enough of them around and if you do get them - the salary cap dictates that you can't keep them.
So, the coaches job is to get each player on the list playing elite footy - regardless of what number in the draft they were taken at.
I think that most players in the AFL, are capable of playing elite footy. Not all, but most.
The danger in chasing 'elite' players - whther it be via the draft or via a trade, is that you don't often know whether they are infact an elite player or simply a player who is playing elite football. And then the question is, is it a guarantee that he will play elite footy at our club?
That's my two cents on the topic.
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rodgerfox
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Yep, our Max.plugger66 wrote: Who is Max. Surely not our Max. As good as he is and was he was never elite. Also Kirk i doubt has never been elite. And surely as you get older and lose some of your skills, pace etc you are no longer elite. Eg Harvs, Buckley and Black. Cox is an elite player. Best ruckman in the comp by a mile. Same as Glass. Best FB by a fair way.
Even this year, when at about 6% fitness, he has not been beaten.
He has beaten his men consistently over the years in finals, in good Saints teams, in terrible Saints teams, on big FFs, on small forwards and at any ground.
Max is elite. Still is.
I've only seen him badly beaten 3 times. Once he was concussed in the first quarter and didn't remember the rest of the game - lucky for him as Lloyd kicked 8.
Against Neitz the week after Daniher and Nietz visited Geischen to complain about his treatment. Neitz kicked 4 in the first quarter - all from free kicks. He finished with 7.
And against Scott Welsh at Docklands last year. He kicked 7. In fairness to Max, the delivery was the best I've ever seen in an AFL footy match.
Harvey is still elite in my eyes.
As for Glass, Cox etc., as I said they may be 'elite players' as opposed to players who are capable of 'playing elite footy', but I'm yet to see Glass hold a quality opponent goalless without Kerr, Judd, Cousins, Braun etc. dominating in the middle.
He may do it, but we won't know until we see it.
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GRAMophone
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I don't know that many would agree but do you think more credit should be given for the durability of a player in terms of just how often they're available for selection? Thinking of say Sammy, Max maybe even Lenny - we all admire their courage and kamikaze exploits but on balance we need them on the field not on the bench. I think Dal gets brownie points just for his lack of injuries. Or is it just luck?
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Based on what? West Coast allowed the fewest inside fifties of any team last year, and Glass had more goals kicked on him than Hudghton, Rutten or Scarlett by a fair bit. Hudghton, meanwhile, played on a defence than allowed more I50s than any of those other teams. He had 23 goals kicked on him for the entire year - ten of them by David Neitz, at least five of those from outside fifty. Max hasn't had a chance to have the same kind of impact this year, neither has Rutten. Scarlett has been excellent.plugger66 wrote:Same as Glass. Best FB by a fair way.
Glass may be the best FB in the comp. I don't think he is, but if he is, it certainly isn't by a fair way.