Jack McCrae

[Scollop]

So you don't want Macrae who you believe is too old and has dropped off the pace, yet your plan is to aim to contend in 3-4 years, when our current best players - Sinclair, Marshall, Steele, Wilkie will be older than Macrae is now, and more likely than not past their best?

Doesn't make sense. Or are you arguing to do a Hawthorn, and trade out one or two of the players mentioned while they have draft value, and get some more young players?

Good points. That's the dilemma for list management. You have to choose whether you're in development phase or not. But please...be realistic. You can't flick a switch and all of a sudden decide that you're ready to be a contender

The drafting and recruiting over the last decade has been poor and we've stuck in no man's land.

I think they just need to be patient. Unfortunately...as you say... it's not ideal for Sinclair, Marshall, Steele, Wilkie, Wood, Butler, Hill etc.

In 5 years time these guys should be peaking. Wilson, Phillipou, Nasiah W-M, King, Collard, Owens, Windhager, Shoenmaker, Garcia, Hastie and maybe Higgins, Clark, Byrnes, Stocker and Dow are still productive...plus... at least 2 very capable younger recruits coming in this year and next. Plus a couple of ready made 23-26 year old free agents hopefully.

That's perhaps 60-80% of your future premiership team isn't it? Do we invest in the future...OR... go for broke in 2025-2026 with the team we have now?

If we were bringing in a potential game breaking mid I'd be more enthusiastic, but I just don't rate the version of Jackson Mcrae that I saw playing in 2024

[B.M]

Hope Jack gets possessions for us because other cannot!

Outside of Steel - our mids average 20 - not enough

[takeaway]

So you don't want Macrae who you believe is too old and has dropped off the pace, yet your plan is to aim to contend in 3-4 years, when our current best players - Sinclair, Marshall, Steele, Wilkie will be older than Macrae is now, and more likely than not past their best?

Doesn't make sense. Or are you arguing to do a Hawthorn, and trade out one or two of the players mentioned while they have draft value, and get some more young players?

Good points. That's the dilemma for list management. You have to choose whether you're in development phase or not. But please...be realistic. You can't flick a switch and all of a sudden decide that you're ready to be a contender

The drafting and recruiting over the last decade has been poor and we've stuck in no man's land.

I think they just need to be patient. Unfortunately...as you say... it's not ideal for Sinclair, Marshall, Steele, Wilkie, Wood, Butler, Hill etc.

In 5 years time these guys should be peaking. Wilson, Phillipou, Nasiah W-M, King, Collard, Owens, Windhager, Shoenmaker, Garcia, Hastie and maybe Higgins, Clark, Byrnes, Stocker and Dow are still productive...plus... at least 2 very capable younger recruits coming in this year and next. Plus a couple of ready made 23-26 year old free agents hopefully.

That's perhaps 60-80% of your future premiership team isn't it? Do we invest in the future...OR... go for broke in 2025-2026 with the team we have now?

If we were bringing in a potential game breaking mid I'd be more enthusiastic, but I just don't rate the version of Jackson Mcrae that I saw playing in 2024

Except for teams in total rebuild (Kangas, and they haven't done it very well), all clubs are seeking improvement every year, and the majority have some hopes of maybe an injury free year, good form and making top 4. Identifying a time in a few years to "contend" I just don't think happens anymore. Too much can change and too many things uncertain.

Hence for the club the future is now and that is what they are doing. We know Steele and the other 3 plus a couple of other "seniors" are capable of playing well in a top 4 team NOW.

As far as your future "60-80%" - yes to Wilson, Phillipou, NWM, King (subject to injury), Owens and probably Higgins. Windhager & Clark likely.
Wouldn't include at this stage Collard, Shoenmaker, Garcia, Hastie - way to go yet and not proven. I don't think Byrnes, Stocker and Dow would hold their places in a top 4 team. So my future % is about 30%.

[Scollop]

As far as your future "60-80%" - yes to Wilson, Phillipou, NWM, King (subject to injury), Owens and probably Higgins. Windhager & Clark likely.
Wouldn't include at this stage Collard, Shoenmaker, Garcia, Hastie - way to go yet and not proven. I don't think Byrnes, Stocker and Dow would hold their places in a top 4 team. So my future % is about 30%.

My 60-80% was based on the likelihood of how the team looks in 4-5 years time with some possible additions ...and not just looking at the current list and the current level of performance from the 19 year olds.

I think our recruiters are very good judging by our draftees in the last 3 years. You can't realistically say that we won't get ANY good young draftees or ANY ready made free agents over the next 5 years.

I think our footy development is improving too. There's a high probability that a couple or ...ALL of Collard, Shoenmaker, Garcia or Hastie make it in the next 3-4 years

[The_Dud]

We hold all the cards in the situation. The Dogs can pay some of his wage and get a late draft pick. Don’t like it? Move on, no skin off our nose.

[SaintPav]

Like it.

F.cku you sh.tscray

[Dave McNamara]

No to Macrae!

We're not talking about a young Jack Steele at the Wogans type of scenario. Where a young bloke was being deprived of opportunity behind an established group of mid fielders.

We're talking about an old bloke being deprived of opportunity behind an established group of mid fielders. A group that he was once part of, but, now he no longer is.


Big difference.

[Dave McNamara]

As for our salary cap space, that B.M rightly points out, that we have to spend on something(one).

I'd be spending that on locking-in for the long term the likes of Nas, Owens, Windy, Henry, Higgins*, Hammer, Garcia, and B.M's man, Wilson. (Who have I forgotten?)





* Re Missy Higgins, IMO, he's our new most criminally underrated player. For anyone who disagrees, check out the stat's. Only 3 small forwards kicked more goals, and all of them played more games... and, in stronger teams than ours. Also, and maybe somewhat surprisingly, only one of those small forwards was more accuate than Missy.
https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_goal_kickers

Like I said, this bloke is criminally underrated!

[Scollop]

As for our salary cap space, that B.M rightly points out, that we have to spend on something(one).

I'd be spending that on locking-in for the long term the likes of Nas, Owens, Windy, Henry, Higgins*, Hammer, Garcia, and B.M's man, Wilson

I'd be spending $1m p.a on Nasiah and probably $800k on Owens. Lock them away for 7 years. Sincs, Marshall and Wilkie also probably deserve more.

Some people might be a bit confused Dave when you speak about Wilson. They might think you're trying to be funny by calling Darcy Wilson 'B.M's man'

He went a bit early on the kid (see link below) but I think he's on the money. Still important that Darcy is managed well and we don't work him too hard too early in his career...so that's another area I agree with B.M. We need Darcy healthy for the next 12+ years.

https://www.saintsational.net/viewtopic ... 4#p2042304

[Teflon]

With the McCrae inclusion we immediately become tougher and harder to move off the ball. Great inclusion for a couple of years.

This
Pay no attention to Trollope no idea

[Dave McNamara]

With the McCrae inclusion we immediately become tougher and harder to move off the ball. Great inclusion for a couple of years.

This
Pay no attention to Scollope no idea

Maybe. Maybe not. But even if so, not by enough for it to matter to the Dogs.



But a bigger issue. The Dogs want to offload the bloke as a (massive) salary dump.

Sure, we (reportedly) have heaps of cap space. But...
- We've shown we're willing to offer insane money to Weitering. And then to Battle. And to Merrett. And, we have actually given insane money to a bloke, who to date has not earnt it... Max King.
- We have a number of young blokes who have seen all this. And who, for their next contracts, will (almost certainly) have actually earned a hefty pay raise.
- Plus, we keep hearing that we're planning to offer big money to a FA agent gun mid who is still actually in his prime.


In other words, I'm not so sure that all this reported salary cap space isn't actually already 'accounted for'.

[Dave McNamara]

Or put another way, I'd be taking the $$$ we saved by not overpaying for Weitering or Merrett or McCrae, combined with the $$$ we didn't overpay for Battle... and make Harley Reid a 10 year Godfather offer.

Something like 1.5 million a year.

Hell, that's only about a Brad Hill and a Doogie Howard in $$$ terms. And he's younger than either of them. And better than both of them... combined.

Inflation will take care of the salary cap impost.

And Harley will take care of club merchandising, sponsorships, neutral supporter bums-on-seats, media coverage, membership numbers... and finals appearances.



Oh, and as for the draft cost, 2 future first rounders will do it (in what will be Tassie-compromised drafts).

[Teflon]

With the McCrae inclusion we immediately become tougher and harder to move off the ball. Great inclusion for a couple of years.

This
Pay no attention to Scollope no idea

Maybe. Maybe not. But even if so, not by enough for it to matter to the Dogs.



But a bigger issue. The Dogs want to offload the bloke as a (massive) salary dump.

Sure, we (reportedly) have heaps of cap space. But...
- We've shown we're willing to offer insane money to Weitering. And then to Battle. And to Merrett. And, we have actually given insane money to a bloke, who to date has not earnt it... Max King.
- We have a number of young blokes who have seen all this. And who, for their next contracts, will (almost certainly) have actually earned a hefty pay raise.
- Plus, we keep hearing that we're planning to offer big money to a FA agent gun mid who is still actually in his prime.


In other words, I'm not so sure that all this reported salary cap space isn't actually already 'accounted for'.

You’re panicking Dave calm down
We have money now - take a hit get sone experience around these kids with a 2xAA Premiership mid who is better than Crouch , wins the ball and who had a lazy 30 and kicked a goal against us this year
Front end contract
King - front end as much s possible
Draft 2 - 3 gun kids
Next year - FA target
After that - nas , Pou payday time IF they deliver

[Scollop]

How is Mcrae 'better' than Crouch?

Crouch is buggered with chronic knee issues, so in the sense of current and future football output, obviously... even the Sandringham mids are 'better' than Crouch.

If you're talking about productivity for each player and comparing their averages for a full year...we need to look at 2023 when both were best 22 for their respective teams.

Crouch's disposal numbers and clearance numbers are better than McRae's

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... 2=C&type=A

Mcrae had a relatively good game against us in 2024, but that was basically his 1 and only solid performance for the year in the seniors. Mcrae is not the damaging mid he used to be. I think you only need to look at how similar midfielders have lost form and dropped off dramatically in output (Crouch and Seb Ross and even Dan Hannebery)

One of the main reasons supporters of the Hannebery trade used as justification when St Kilda was looking to recruit him from the Swans, was that he was a former All Australian. How'd that turn out?

If you go back to 2023 when we rolled the Dogs by 50 points, he was beaten by Hunter Clark. Hunter had better numbers than Mcrae on the day (their disposals were similar - Hunter 26 and Jack got 25, but Hunter was more effective earning 91 DT points versus Mcrae only 73 DT points).

We will have Steele, Clark and Phillipou as our starting midfielders in 2025. Ably supported by Zak Jones, Windhager and Dow in the engine room. We have Stocker and Owens who are able to match it in the clinches with the biggest bull midfielders. We have Sincs, Byrnes and Henry who will be called upon around stoppages. We have Garcia and other young mids who need time in the seniors.

We need an Andrew Brayshaw or LDU type...We don't need Mcrae.



... For Sanctorum...that's me with my bone

[Long Term Injury]

I see it as a question of percentages, we offer to take on his full salary in addition to draft picks, say the dog’s first or second round. Half his salary their second or third round etc. If geelong got Bowes and a draft pick for the salary dump, we should be demanding even more given that McCrae is older and potentially on the slide. Dogs need cap space to keep their talent. If no monster offer is on the table this year, then this is an intelligent way to use our cap space, essentially buying draft picks in a strong draft. McCrae does not come at the expense of investing in the future, he becomes key to it, improving our immediate draft position.

[Scollop]

Yes. Let's hope that's the plan

[Sanctorum]

... For Sanctorum...that's me with my bone

Do my eyes deceive me? It looks suspiciously like that rather big bone is about to go up your arse Scollop!!

[B.M]

Macrae career wise (bigger sample than 1 year!)

Far better player than Brad Crouch

3 x AA = Elite

[B.M]

Crouch
Malcolm Blight Medal: 2019
Ian Stewart Medal: 2022
Silk Miller Medal: 2023
2013 AFL Rising Star: nominee


AFL premiership player (2016)
3x All-Australian (2019, 2020, 2021)
Gary Ayres Award (2021)
AFL Disposals Leader (2021)
AFL Rising Star nominee (2013)

[Dave McNamara]

You’re panicking Dave calm down
We have money now - take a hit get sone experience around these kids with a 2xAA Premiership mid who is better than Crouch , wins the ball and who had a lazy 30 and kicked a goal against us this year
Front end contract
King - front end as much s possible
Draft 2 - 3 gun kids
Next year - FA target
After that - nas , Pou payday time IF they deliver

I'm doing my deep breathing exercises.

That's better.



Ok, firstly, I don't reckon MacCrae would help very much on the field. Certainnly won't make us better than that team he can no longer get into. He's past it.
https://www.saintsational.net/viewtopic ... d#p2078220

As for McCrae possibly mentoring our up n' comers... well, doing 'the sums', if he plays, it'd be at the expense of the likes of a Garcia, or SS's born-again fave' player Ronnie Byrnes. We can't fit everyone in.



Secondly, instead of helping the Poodles with their salary dump, I'd be re-negotiating the contracts of the blokes I listed, plus the Poe. (Knew I'd forgotten someone. ) Also, B.M's other man, Hugo. As B.M has rightly discerned, the bloke is a draft steal, and is going to be a star.

And I say 're-negoiating', because I'd be using our current cap space to up those players' current contracts (so the front loading starts even earlier). That way we'll stil have the surplus to make Harley Reid that Godfather offer that I mentioned (maybe in the Zach Merrett thread? ), after the 2026 season. That's the Harley $$$ covered. Draft-wise, we pay for him with two 1st round Tassie-devalued draft picks.

Or... we do a straight swap for Max King. Player and contract. And, we do that ... now. That way, if we then felt the need, there are actually a couple of likely key forwards in this draft that we could pick up instead of a mid, given we'd have Harley.

Or... stuff it, we take the bold and ballsy nuclear option. Lets really go to town, and go all out for a flag in 2025 and/or 2026!!!

Keep Max King, and offer the Coke-Coasters our two top 10 picks for Harley Reid. They must know they're going to struggle to retain him, so it makes sense to (very significantly) mitigate their losses. That way they'd have three top ten picks, in a largely uncompromised strong mid's draft. Or, given how even the draft is touted to be, they could conceivably split those 3 picks... into four, five, or even six first round picks. That'd give their rebuild a very decent boost before Tassie wrecks the drafts. So, win/win.

Come on Grubby and Simon D! Sell that to the Cokers!

[B.M]

Hugo is going to be good - he is not yet

Players aren’t done at 30 - unless their body is cooked! they can play easily play until 34/35 at a high level these days
1. If they are good players
2. If they’re still motivated to train at an elite level
3. Body is sound


Macrae is very durable- played every game this season


Also,
The team he cannot get into - he played with 19 times this season. He is behind 2 current AA mids and Libba (elite clearance player)

As a 30yo
191cm mid with freakish ability to accumulate- he’ll be very handy
He would be behind on Steele at StK

[Teflon]

You’re panicking Dave calm down
We have money now - take a hit get sone experience around these kids with a 2xAA Premiership mid who is better than Crouch , wins the ball and who had a lazy 30 and kicked a goal against us this year
Front end contract
King - front end as much s possible
Draft 2 - 3 gun kids
Next year - FA target
After that - nas , Pou payday time IF they deliver

I'm doing my deep breathing exercises.

That's better.



Ok, firstly, I don't reckon MacCrae would help very much on the field. Certainnly won't make us better than that team he can no longer get into. He's past it.
https://www.saintsational.net/viewtopic ... d#p2078220

As for McCrae possibly mentoring our up n' comers... well, doing 'the sums', if he plays, it'd be at the expense of the likes of a Garcia, or SS's born-again fave' player Ronnie Byrnes. We can't fit everyone in.



Secondly, instead of helping the Poodles with their salary dump, I'd be re-negotiating the contracts of the blokes I listed, plus the Poe. (Knew I'd forgotten someone. ) Also, B.M's other man, Hugo. As B.M has rightly discerned, the bloke is a draft steal, and is going to be a star.

And I say 're-negoiating', because I'd be using our current cap space to up those players' current contracts (so the front loading starts even earlier). That way we'll stil have the surplus to make Harley Reid that Godfather offer that I mentioned (maybe in the Zach Merrett thread? ), after the 2026 season. That's the Harley $$$ covered. Draft-wise, we pay for him with two 1st round Tassie-devalued draft picks.

Or... we do a straight swap for Max King. Player and contract. And, we do that ... now. That way, if we then felt the need, there are actually a couple of likely key forwards in this draft that we could pick up instead of a mid, given we'd have Harley.

Or... stuff it, we take the bold and ballsy nuclear option. Lets really go to town, and go all out for a flag in 2025 and/or 2026!!!

Keep Max King, and offer the Coke-Coasters our two top 10 picks for Harley Reid. They must know they're going to struggle to retain him, so it makes sense to (very significantly) mitigate their losses. That way they'd have three top ten picks, in a largely uncompromised strong mid's draft. Or, given how even the draft is touted to be, they could conceivably split those 3 picks... into four, five, or even six first round picks. That'd give their rebuild a very decent boost before Tassie wrecks the drafts. So, win/win.

Come on Grubby and Simon D! Sell that to the Cokers!

Stop u at sentence 1 Dave it’s dumb
Everyone said same bout Crouch when he came
McRae better than Crouch is 30 ….not 74
Anyway let’s revisit this thread next year I like a laugh as much as anyone

[damienc]

Macrae career wise (bigger sample than 1 year!)

Far better player than Brad Crouch

3 x AA = Elite

Sanity is restored. Yes. He is.

[Scollop]

Who gives a fat rats clacker how many AA jackets Mcrae has? Hannebery had 3 as well

Anyway...What's the fascination with former All Australians?

I'll tell you what it is...lazy recruiting. Go and bloody watch games of footy...

Have any of you people who are cheerleading this move actually watched Mcrae playing this year?

What's required is players who are currently at the top of their game, or young players we can bring in who have upside.

I don't think anyone can honestly say that Mcrae is in the best form of his career.

[CURLY]

Who gives a fat rats clacker how many AA jackets Mcrae has? Hannebery had 3 as well

Anyway...What's the fascination with former All Australians?

I'll tell you what it is...lazy recruiting. Go and bloody watch games of footy...

Have any of you people who are cheerleading this move actually watched Mcrae playing this year?

What's required is players who are currently at the top of their game, or young players we can bring in who have upside.

I don't think anyone can honestly say that Mcrae is in the best form of his career.

Yeah reckon you’re right only you can see it.