King unbalances the team?

[whiskers3614]

I thought the footy adage says that good, solid defences win finals.

Battle is in his prime, and in the right age bracket.

He's not "our 7th best player," he's elite in his position ... and ranking him behind our midfielders approaching their twilight years is simply wrong and very short-sighted.

Can't believe Battle valued below Hill, especially when Hill's trade cost is considered.
Seems a lovely fellow but not who I would have sold the farm for at that point of our list build.

[samoht]

You have to consider his age, durability and his elite status.
He's holding down an important position.

[spert]

StK won games without Tony Lockett
And
Lost games with Tony Lockett

Should we have left him out?

We have made finals twice in the last 5 years

King was in the side

He is an asset - had a poor run with injuries - has a huge scope for improvement

Could be a 60-80 goal player fully fit

lol, who needs logic I suppose!

And I’m glad we’re still hanging off ‘potential’ for our marquee player coming into his 6th season…

We aren't hanging off potential though. He kicked 52 goals in 2022 (avg 2.36 in his third year) was on track for 56 last year (avg 2.55 per game, for comparison Jessie Hogan averaged 3 per game this year) despite injuries and he was only really poor this year where he was even more impacted by injuries and still averaged 1.56 goals per game (vs our leading goal kicker Higgins who averaged 1.8 per game).

Yeah but we didn't draft him hoping for a B+ forward like Hogan, we were sold 'Winx'! A generational talent who will become the number one forward in the game, give him number 12!

Right now he would still hold that value to some clubs, so if we can cash in and get 'overs' we should at least look at it.

I used Hogan as an example because he won the Coleman by 11 goals this year. If a B+ forward is what it takes to do that, you must still be grading on an 80s/90s benchmark.

He was 12 goals off the Coleman in 2022 which was his last full year. That is also the most goals kicked by a Saints player since Milne in 2012.

Don't just sook about 'but we were sold a 3+ goal a game forward, but this guy only kicked 2.36 goals per game as a 22 year old and has been injured since so we should get rid', actually propose a solution. Do you have a real idea to replace a 2.5+ goal a game forward? Because our next prospect is Cooper Sharman (who is the same age as King) and he only kicked 14 goals in his last 9 games while King was out (avg 1.55), so we lose a goal a game on average?

I'm pretty sure I've been fairly consistent with this take - an elite midfiled makes ok forward/back lines look great.

Hit this draft with 4 or 5 first round picks (multiple top 10) and draft the best mids available, depending how everything turns out draft mids again next year. Once a dominant midfield is established you bring in some big bodies through trading / free agency to finish off the forward and back lines and make your run for a flag. Hogan cost GWS a late third round pick.

Melbourne, Bulldogs and Collingwood all won premierships recently without a dominant key forward. Even Geelong did it way back with Podsiadly and Mooney leading the goalkicking.

Tom Boyd- Bulldogs?

Are you talking about elite power forward Tom Boyd who kicked 13 goals in 2016?

Yes, and one their most effective players in their premiership- big forward.

[St Dave]

I thought the footy adage says that good, solid defences win finals.

Battle is in his prime, and in the right age bracket.

He's not "our 7th best player," he's elite in his position ... and ranking him behind our midfielders and other players approaching their twilight years is simply wrong and very short-sighted.

“Attack wins you games, defence wins you titles” is a Sir Alex Ferguson quote and there is a similar one about winning rings in the NFL or NBA. It might be something to do with defence generally being considered more structured and efficient. It would be interesting to see analysis on this.

Unfortunately it is a saying not a rule, especially in leagues with a finals series where one bad game (or bad bounce) can send you out.

I do hope we keep Battle, I just hope it doesn't cost us the ability to retain Nas or Pou or others in the future.

[samoht]

Of course.
Hopefully, he does the right thing by his St Kilda family, too.

[The_Dud]

StK won games without Tony Lockett
And
Lost games with Tony Lockett

Should we have left him out?

We have made finals twice in the last 5 years

King was in the side

He is an asset - had a poor run with injuries - has a huge scope for improvement

Could be a 60-80 goal player fully fit

lol, who needs logic I suppose!

And I’m glad we’re still hanging off ‘potential’ for our marquee player coming into his 6th season…

We aren't hanging off potential though. He kicked 52 goals in 2022 (avg 2.36 in his third year) was on track for 56 last year (avg 2.55 per game, for comparison Jessie Hogan averaged 3 per game this year) despite injuries and he was only really poor this year where he was even more impacted by injuries and still averaged 1.56 goals per game (vs our leading goal kicker Higgins who averaged 1.8 per game).

Yeah but we didn't draft him hoping for a B+ forward like Hogan, we were sold 'Winx'! A generational talent who will become the number one forward in the game, give him number 12!

Right now he would still hold that value to some clubs, so if we can cash in and get 'overs' we should at least look at it.

I used Hogan as an example because he won the Coleman by 11 goals this year. If a B+ forward is what it takes to do that, you must still be grading on an 80s/90s benchmark.

He was 12 goals off the Coleman in 2022 which was his last full year. That is also the most goals kicked by a Saints player since Milne in 2012.

Don't just sook about 'but we were sold a 3+ goal a game forward, but this guy only kicked 2.36 goals per game as a 22 year old and has been injured since so we should get rid', actually propose a solution. Do you have a real idea to replace a 2.5+ goal a game forward? Because our next prospect is Cooper Sharman (who is the same age as King) and he only kicked 14 goals in his last 9 games while King was out (avg 1.55), so we lose a goal a game on average?

I'm pretty sure I've been fairly consistent with this take - an elite midfiled makes ok forward/back lines look great.

Hit this draft with 4 or 5 first round picks (multiple top 10) and draft the best mids available, depending how everything turns out draft mids again next year. Once a dominant midfield is established you bring in some big bodies through trading / free agency to finish off the forward and back lines and make your run for a flag. Hogan cost GWS a late third round pick.

Melbourne, Bulldogs and Collingwood all won premierships recently without a dominant key forward. Even Geelong did it way back with Podsiadly and Mooney leading the goalkicking.

Tom Boyd- Bulldogs?

Are you talking about elite power forward Tom Boyd who kicked 13 goals in 2016?

Yes, and one their most effective players in their premiership- big forward.

That's the point, you don't need an elite power forward to win a premiership, role/good players can get the job done with an elite midfield.

[The_Dud]

Dud

I do like to use facts when giving an opinion

The dogs were beaten by us in finals

They had a great midfield- we had a great midfield (like most top 4 teams!)

We had Nick Reiwoldt
They did not

And we lost 2 GFs with Riewoldt...

You said the Dogs couldn't score in 08/09 - they were literally the highest scoring team across those years.

We beat them by a kick in 2009 PF, in 2010 when they had 80 goal Barry Hall they scored less across the year and we beat them by more in the PF.

How about I list team in the past 25 years that won a premiership without elite big forwards, and you do the same for mids?

2006 - West Coast (Lynch)
2007 - Geelong (Mooney, Ablett)
2009 - Geelong (Mooney, Hawkins)
2010 - Collingwood (Cloke, Dawes)
2011 - Geelong (Hawkins, Podsiadly)
2012 - Sydney (Reid, Goodes - not sure you'd class him as a forward, tho he is elite)
2016 - Bulldogs (Boyd, Cordy - lol)
2021 - Melbourne (Brown, MacDonald)
2023 - Collingwood (Mihocek)

The point is, you DO NOT need an elite big forward, you DO need an elite midfield.

IF trading King gives us a better chance of getting that elite midfield, it must be looked at.

[B.M]

Mooney was AA in 2007 and kicked 70 goals
Hawkins was almost BOG in the 2011 GF and will be a HOFer
Cloke was a gun Power Forward
Other teams had very serviceable to good key forwards
Mihochek, Brown, McDonald were all excellent in their premiership years

But you missed a few others over the last 25 years
1999 Carey, Longmire
2000 Lloyd, Lucas
2001-2003 Lynch, Brown
2004 Tredrea
2005 Barry Hall, O’Loughlin
2008 Franklin, Roughead
2013-2015 Roughead, Hale
2017 Reiwoldt
2019-20 Reiwoldt Lynch
2022 Hawkins Cameron

We can all be selective

[The_Dud]

Mooney was AA in 2007 and kicked 70 goals
Hawkins was almost BOG in the 2011 GF and will be a HOFer
Cloke was a gun Power Forward
Other teams had very serviceable to good key forwards
Mihochek, Brown, McDonald were all excellent in their premiership years

But you missed a few others over the last 25 years
1999 Carey, Longmire
2000 Lloyd, Lucas
2001-2003 Lynch, Brown
2004 Tredrea
2005 Barry Hall, O’Loughlin
2008 Franklin, Roughead
2013-2015 Roughead, Hale
2017 Reiwoldt
2019-20 Reiwoldt Lynch
2022 Hawkins Cameron

We can all be selective

What the hell are you talking about?! I was selecting the teams who won without elite big forwards... so I was obviously being selective!

Not sure if you're just trolling at this point...

Mooney an elite power forward? Yeah you're definitely trolling!

I'll wait on your list of non-elite midfields...

[samoht]

Players/forwards who can impact games win finals and grand finals (or at least help their teams do it), and they come in all shapes and sizes ... Rioli for Hawthorn, Bartlett for Richmond.

Steve Johnson for Geelong.

Shanahan couldn't keep up with Darren Jarman. He would have preferred a power forward.

[B.M]

Cam Mooney

221 games 297 goals
3× AFL Premiership: 1999, 2007, 2009
All-Australian team: 2007
2× Geelong leading goalkicker: 2007, 2009

Yep
Fair career

[The_Dud]

Cam Mooney

221 games 297 goals
3× AFL Premiership: 1999, 2007, 2009
All-Australian team: 2007
2× Geelong leading goalkicker: 2007, 2009

Yep
Fair career

So you're agreeing with me then. Get an above average player, stick him infront of an elite midfield (in Geelong's case, prob one of the best in the AFL era) and you get production.

They don't need to be elite.

And what were Mooney's stats in the 1999 flag again?

[B.M]

He was 19yo

Played less than 20 games

In the day where bench players played bench and only came on if necessary.