King unbalances the team?

[Scollop]

Who would you take out of these 2 players?

They've both been tried in other positions, but they are both essentially KP forwards

Career games player A: 48
Career games player B: 115

Career averages.
A....................B.
6.1 Kicks 12.0
3.0 Handballs 2.7
9.1 Disposals 14.7
3.6 Marks 5.5
1.0 Goals 0.7
0.4 Behinds 0.6
1.4 Tackles 1.6
0.3 Hitouts 0.2
1.7 Inside 50s 3.2
0.3 Goal Assists 0.5
0.4 Frees For 0.5
0.4 Frees Against 0.7
4.2 Contested Possessions 4.1
4.9 Uncontested Possessions 9.0
6.2 Eff, Disposals 10.2
68.1% Disp. Eff. % 69.4%
1.7 Clangers 2.7
0.8 Cont. Marks 0.6
1.2 Marks I50 0.7
0.4 Clearances 0.3
0.7 Rebound 50s 2.8
2.2 One Percenters 2.2

Player A is Cooper Sharman

[B.M]

I would take player B

[takeaway]

Who would you take out of these 2 players?

They've both been tried in other positions, but they are both essentially KP forwards

Career games player A: 48
Career games player B: 115

Career averages.
A....................B.
6.1 Kicks 12.0
3.0 Handballs 2.7
9.1 Disposals 14.7
3.6 Marks 5.5
1.0 Goals 0.7
0.4 Behinds 0.6
1.4 Tackles 1.6
0.3 Hitouts 0.2
1.7 Inside 50s 3.2
0.3 Goal Assists 0.5
0.4 Frees For 0.5
0.4 Frees Against 0.7
4.2 Contested Possessions 4.1
4.9 Uncontested Possessions 9.0
6.2 Eff, Disposals 10.2
68.1% Disp. Eff. % 69.4%
1.7 Clangers 2.7
0.8 Cont. Marks 0.6
1.2 Marks I50 0.7
0.4 Clearances 0.3
0.7 Rebound 50s 2.8
2.2 One Percenters 2.2

Player A is Cooper Sharman

Cooper's going well, but taking all into consideration, including time actually spent forward and versatility, I'd take B. Another Jack for the team as well.

[SaintWiki]

Well I believe our coaching staff will find a way to fit Max back into the team and that armchair coaches that think they know better are a bit of a joke and the Hun is no better. Anyway time will tell.

[Scollop]

I would take player B

What if his salary is 3 x that of Sharman?

What if player B right now would require a first round pick to prize out of the Suns? Or at least an early 2nd round pick plus extras

[B.M]

I thought we were just comparing them straight up

Not taking their contract into account

There is a reason for that contract and trade requirements

[St Dave]

Who would you take out of these 2 players?

They've both been tried in other positions, but they are both essentially KP forwards

Career games player A: 48
Career games player B: 115

Career averages.
A....................B.
6.1 Kicks 12.0
3.0 Handballs 2.7
9.1 Disposals 14.7
3.6 Marks 5.5
1.0 Goals 0.7
0.4 Behinds 0.6
1.4 Tackles 1.6
0.3 Hitouts 0.2
1.7 Inside 50s 3.2
0.3 Goal Assists 0.5
0.4 Frees For 0.5
0.4 Frees Against 0.7
4.2 Contested Possessions 4.1
4.9 Uncontested Possessions 9.0
6.2 Eff, Disposals 10.2
68.1% Disp. Eff. % 69.4%
1.7 Clangers 2.7
0.8 Cont. Marks 0.6
1.2 Marks I50 0.7
0.4 Clearances 0.3
0.7 Rebound 50s 2.8
2.2 One Percenters 2.2

Player A is Cooper Sharman

Ha, I made the same comparison over in the Battle thread but looking here I didn't realise why it was so familiar.

If you are school yard drafting you take Lukosius, but given both have the stats of probably your third tall forward, you wouldn't pay anything for Jack given we already have Cooper at home

[Sanctorum]

Jack Lukosius has 2 years left on his contract and even if he were to leave the Suns, as pick 2 in 2018 draft he will cost a small fortune to transfer to another club.

Cooper Sharman is still miles behind Lukosius in experience at the top level, I wonder how the comparison between the two would look after Lukosius played 48 games?

[seano1]

Watching bulldogs young Darcy roughly same size ….helps out in the ruck and in the forward line and younger than King and looks like he wants to play ….our guy looks like he’s happy with his lot and bit of a Tomic ….has the skill but doesn’t show it . As others have said our mids don’t help but it’s hard for them if he doesn’t move around next to our other forwards….separate move around and lead

[Vortex]

Watching bulldogs young Darcy roughly same size ….helps out in the ruck and in the forward line and younger than King and looks like he wants to play ….our guy looks like he’s happy with his lot and bit of a Tomic….has the skill but doesn’t show it . As others have said our mids don’t help but it’s hard for them if he doesn’t move around next to our other forwards….separate move around and lead

Naming him Winx and giving him the number 12 was a mistake IMO, should have been made to earn it.

[desertsaint]

given one has played well less than half the other, yet is already a better kick for goal, scores 42% more goals, is better at contested possessions, takes more marks inside fifty, and makes far less clangers - as a KP forward i'd take him - only going to get better once he hits that fifty game mark.
the other one i may trial as a tall defender cause he's not a goal kicker.

[Scollop]

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/pet ... 5k5e6.html

[Scollop]

Looking back on our drafting over the last 10 years, it's a cluster f*ck of huge mistakes

The biggest mistake was obviously taking McCartin over Petracca....But what that ALSO did was created a conundrum that affected our draft picks in subsequent years afterwards.

That monumental error had a snowball effect, because we continued to overlook Key Position talent over the next few years, because they believed McCartin was the right choice.

In 2015, we gave away our pick number 6 for Jake Carlisle. This was the year that both Harry McKay and Charlie Curnow were available. We could have had one of these blokes if Trout and Cho hadn't have already selected their 'ripper' Full Forward.

Jake Carlisle was a very good player and definitely worth the pick, but why recruit someone to give you 5-6 years of good footy when you can get a gun 18 year old that will give you 12-14 years of good footy. Cho and list management obviously thought our premiership window was close

Same thing again in 2017. We had the chance to draft Aaron Naughton, but we were still dreaming (and hoping) that Paddy would become a star and one day be AFL match fit.

And then...in 2018 when they realised the McCartin experiment had failed they chose Max King over Connor Rozee.

[Sanctorum]

Haha, I didn't read your post before starting a separate thread on this very subject Scollop, but tell me, do you think Max is going to make it as a key forward, and if not, would you redesignate his role as either 2nd ruck or key defender, which is what I've proposed (believing the club won't trade him away), or get rid of him??

[samoht]

Max King can still become an important player for us, maybe a ripper defender?

Our forward line is functioning better now, with more goals, a better spread and more forward pressure being applied.

Our conversion rate has improved ... we beat Carlton with a couple of more shots at goal (than them) coming from fewer F50 entries.

How can King improve our team further ... if something ain't broke, our forward line in this instance, do you start tinkering with it?
Can he slot into a key defensive role?
If only Richo was still here ... the great lateral thinker and developer of players.

P.S.
King probably deserves a return to the forward line, if only to test the chicken or the egg theory (if it's our better forward connection rather than a reorganised forward line that has improved our scoring with King missing) ... and to put it to bed.

But, we should also be training him for a key defensive role ... why not?

[magnifisaint]

If Battle leaves play him at CHB.

[Scollop]

Haha, I didn't read your post before starting a separate thread on this very subject Scollop, but tell me, do you think Max is going to make it as a key forward, and if not, would you redesignate his role as either 2nd ruck or key defender, which is what I've proposed (believing the club won't trade him away), or get rid of him??

I think he can become a star Full Forward. It's pretty simple. He has the talent, but to me he looks exhausted at the end of every first quarter. Both mentally and physically.

It's not that hard. If you look at when Christian Petracca's career took off it was when he became fit enough to play as a pure mid.

Max needs to improve on one thing. Get physically stronger and get aerobically fitter...ooops that's 2 things isn't it?

He looks like someone with a fair bit of self doubt at times. That's something that is probably harder to change but, I really believe that if he focuses on fitness, everything else will fall into place

[samoht]

No doubt, a 30% physically fitter and stronger King would be formidable, especially if he started wearing non-slip gloves.

But, our forward line needs to be multi-faceted.

With Henry, Phillipou and Wilson, we'll be kicking 3-5 more running goals per match, from what will be a relatively new source. More goals from general play!

Even Lockett had his lean days (and plenty of them) ... we need to encourage a bigger spread of goals.

So, King (even a fitter and more formidale version) will need to be a part of and not a focus of this new forward line.

[St Dave]

Max King can still become an important player for us, maybe a ripper defender?

Our forward line is functioning better now, with more goals, a better spread and more forward pressure being applied.

Our conversion rate has improved ... we beat Carlton with a couple of more shots at goal (than them) coming from fewer F50 entries.

How can King improve our team further ... if something ain't broke, our forward line in this instance, do you start tinkering with it?
Can he slot into a key defensive role?
If only Richo was still here ... the great lateral thinker and developer of players.

P.S.
King probably deserves a return to the forward line, if only to test the chicken or the egg theory (if it's our better forward connection rather than a reorganised forward line that has improved our scoring with King missing) ... and to put it to bed.

But, we should also be training him for a key defensive role ... why not?

I posted the data in the King for Petracca thread but our ball movement up the field has changed a lot over the last 7ish weeks and I think the team would be even better with King in there. There had been a lot more moving defences around to find little pockets of space for short lead/marks and King drawing the extra attention he does would only help create that space. We have to stick with it when he comes back though, not fall back in to the bomb it long habit we have when he is in the team

[Scollop]

A bigger spread of goals requires us to have better contested ball numbers and better centre clearances and higher opportunities to score

We're bottom 4 in the league for inside 50's per game. The top teams provide more opportunities to score and therefore have higher scores on average. So that points the finger mostly at the midfield.

We have room for improvement on our inside 50's numbers, but obviously we also need to be more efficient once we get it in there.

St Kilda is also bottom six as far as conversion from our inside 50's. We're bottom 6 for goals per inside 50 and bottom six for all scores per inside 50 including rushed behinds. That's where connection with the mids and players delivering into the forward line come into it.

Our accuracy isn't good (that's goals as a percentage of shots to score) We're bottom 7 in the league for accuracy, but that's a stat that we can live with if we increase our opportunities to score. Bulldogs, Brisbane and Port are worse than us and they're playing finals

[samoht]

Our conversion rate ... our scoring per forward 50 entry is a good indicator of forward efficiency, and it's improved ...it has climbed markedly... over the last few weeks.

This is a welcome, new trend (and it seems to coincide with King missing ... maybe our approach changing?).

If we improve our midfield, including our contested ball winning, next year, that will also mean more F50 entries for us and less for the opposition leading to a greater spread of goals, possibly (as you say) ... and then our improved conversion rate which we're now seeing (and therefore improved forward efficiency) will take care of the rest.

We did win more contested ball than Carlton ... which was a surprise. But we ended up with less F50 entries.

[St Dave]

A bigger spread of goals requires us to have better contested ball numbers and better centre clearances and higher opportunities to score

We're bottom 4 in the league for inside 50's per game. The top teams provide more opportunities to score and therefore have higher scores on average. So that points the finger mostly at the midfield.

We have room for improvement on our inside 50's numbers, but obviously we also need to be more efficient once we get it in there.

St Kilda is also bottom six as far as conversion from our inside 50's. We're bottom 6 for goals per inside 50 and bottom six for all scores per inside 50 including rushed behinds. That's where connection with the mids and players delivering into the forward line come into it.

Our accuracy isn't good (that's goals as a percentage of shots to score) We're bottom 7 in the league for accuracy, but that's a stat that we can live with if we increase our opportunities to score. Bulldogs, Brisbane and Port are worse than us and they're playing finals

If you are on the wheeloratings team stats page getting those figures, check them out with the last 5 weeks filter, those inside 50 efficiency stats improve considerably. Time will tell if we keep playing that way though

[B.M]

King will play forward next year

Guaranteed

[Sanctorum]

Haha, I didn't read your post before starting a separate thread on this very subject Scollop, but tell me, do you think Max is going to make it as a key forward, and if not, would you redesignate his role as either 2nd ruck or key defender, which is what I've proposed (believing the club won't trade him away), or get rid of him??

I think he can become a star Full Forward. It's pretty simple. He has the talent, but to me he looks exhausted at the end of every first quarter. Both mentally and physically.

It's not that hard. If you look at when Christian Petracca's career took off it was when he became fit enough to play as a pure mid.

Max needs to improve on one thing. Get physically stronger and get aerobically fitter...ooops that's 2 things isn't it?

He looks like someone with a fair bit of self doubt at times. That's something that is probably harder to change but, I really believe that if he focuses on fitness, everything else will fall into place

I hope you're right. Getting aerobically fitter is relatively simple, just get miles into the legs over summer, pushing to the limits of exhaustion as I used to do when I was a distance runner.

But physically stronger is not as easy as it might appear, neither of the brothers appear to have muscular bodies, they're beanpoles. Max is listed as 100 kg, Ben 98 but Joe Daniher (201 cm) is 96 kg yet appears to be more muscular.

I would have thought that on the basis of those figures the Kings have reached their optimum weight/size - maybe it's the way they slouch around bent over with dropped shoulders that makes it look like they can develop physically stronger bodies, who knows?

As for the mental side of his personality, if he ceases to be top dog in attack and plays second ruck or in defence there will be far less focus on him by the cameras and by getting more involved as a follower he should get a lot more touches which will build his confidence as a player.

One thing's for certain, the club should not continue to utilise his services in the same way in 2025 that they have in the past 5 years. The winning streak in the last 7 rounds has proved that the forward line functions so much better without King!

[B.M]

StK won games without Tony Lockett
And
Lost games with Tony Lockett

Should we have left him out?

We have made finals twice in the last 5 years

King was in the side

He is an asset - had a poor run with injuries - has a huge scope for improvement

Could be a 60-80 goal player fully fit