Stats are a garbage argument

[Yorkeys]

Here's a real time example.
Show a mathematician from Kazakhstan the current ladder and ask who appears best side.
Well it seems Sydney. Clearly.
But we know it's not Sydney.
Stats can mislead.

[Josh Battle]

Here is the article that formed Curly's opinion on contested possession stats.

Great work Whispering Ted.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-19/ ... /104113954

My concern is how there measured.

Think Lenny Hayes Joel Selwood

If you're not someone of note who votes on prestigious awards....Why would you be 'concerned'

Are you voting on the Leigh Matthews Medal this year?

Are you on the panel to nominate the All Australians?

I'm sure you could use that abc report to good use even if you are a nobody.

If you value hard ball gets a lot more than other so called 'contested possessions', then obviously you'd scrutinise that abc article very closely.

Did you?

I suggest even if you are not voting for prestigious AFL awards, that the information in that report is a treasure trove of information for you.

May even be worth sending your thoughts to the AFL commission and the coaches association for their consideration

[CURLY]

Would people rate Zac Merret in the Top 47 players in the AFL?

[The_Dud]

Here is the article that formed Curly's opinion on contested possession stats.

Great work Whispering Ted.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-19/ ... /104113954

Whoops

[CURLY]

Here is the article that formed Curly's opinion on contested possession stats.

Great work Whispering Ted.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-19/ ... /104113954

Whoops

Given Ive never read that article and no big deal if I had.

I will ask again is Zac Merret in the best 47 players in the League///

[D.B.Cooper]

Here is the article that formed Curly's opinion on contested possession stats.

Great work Whispering Ted.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-19/ ... /104113954

Whoops

Given Ive never read that article and no big deal if I had.

I will ask again is Zac Merret in the best 47 players in the League///

Well clearly ' Whispering TED Curly ' has formed an opinion based on todays Herald Sun article.
If you read the article, you'll clearly see what Whispering Curls thinks about Zac and the top 47.

See good old Curly only values possessions as a key indicator of a players worth.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/ ... ame%20each.

AFL 2024: The 47 players rated ‘elite’ this season by Champion Data

Champion Data has crunched the numbers to find the AFL’s elite players. Some names are obvious but others have surprised, but only one club in the league was snubbed. See the full list.

Josh Barnes
Josh Barnes
follow
@Josh__Barnes
7 min read
July 31, 2024 - 6:00AM
News Sport Network
4 comments

There is nothing to count for Essendon fans, while Sydney sits pretty on top of the ladder and on top of the list of “elite” players in the AFL this season.

To find who have been the best of the best by the numbers, Champion Data crunched the numbers to provide the top players in each position.

To qualify as “elite” on this list, a player had to be in the top 10 per cent in his position, per player ratings points, with 47 players qualifying.

Player ratings points is a system designed to measure impact on games, with Marcus Bontempelli at the top of the tree this year.

Sadly for the Bombers, they are the only club without a single player rated elite, meaning skipper Zach Merrett has missed the cut, while Collingwood and Fremantle have provided just one name each.

At the other end, Sydney leads all comers with five names.

Some picks are obvious – such as Bontempelli, Charlie Curnow and Nick Daicos.

But others surprised, with Justin McInerney, Matt Rowell and Alex Neal-Bullen making the cut.

[CURLY]

Here is the article that formed Curly's opinion on contested possession stats.

Great work Whispering Ted.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-19/ ... /104113954

Whoops

Given Ive never read that article and no big deal if I had.

I will ask again is Zac Merret in the best 47 players in the League///

Well clearly ' Whispering TED Curly ' has formed an opinion based on todays Herald Sun article.
If you read the article, you'll clearly see what Whispering Curls thinks about Zac and the top 47.

See good old Curly only values possessions as a key indicator of a players worth.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/ ... ame%20each.

AFL 2024: The 47 players rated ‘elite’ this season by Champion Data

Champion Data has crunched the numbers to find the AFL’s elite players. Some names are obvious but others have surprised, but only one club in the league was snubbed. See the full list.

Josh Barnes
Josh Barnes
follow
@Josh__Barnes
7 min read
July 31, 2024 - 6:00AM
News Sport Network
4 comments

There is nothing to count for Essendon fans, while Sydney sits pretty on top of the ladder and on top of the list of “elite” players in the AFL this season.

To find who have been the best of the best by the numbers, Champion Data crunched the numbers to provide the top players in each position.

To qualify as “elite” on this list, a player had to be in the top 10 per cent in his position, per player ratings points, with 47 players qualifying.

Player ratings points is a system designed to measure impact on games, with Marcus Bontempelli at the top of the tree this year.

Sadly for the Bombers, they are the only club without a single player rated elite, meaning skipper Zach Merrett has missed the cut, while Collingwood and Fremantle have provided just one name each.

At the other end, Sydney leads all comers with five names.

Some picks are obvious – such as Bontempelli, Charlie Curnow and Nick Daicos.

But others surprised, with Justin McInerney, Matt Rowell and Alex Neal-Bullen making the cut.

Well you see Buzzard this was raised on MIDWEEK TACKLE and they were surprised Zac Merret didn't make it. Odd that there stats matrix has him out yet to the eye of basically all he is ELITE.

[D.B.Cooper]

Here is the article that formed Curly's opinion on contested possession stats.

Great work Whispering Ted.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-19/ ... /104113954

Whoops

Given Ive never read that article and no big deal if I had.

I will ask again is Zac Merret in the best 47 players in the League///

Well clearly ' Whispering TED Curly ' has formed an opinion based on todays Herald Sun article.
If you read the article, you'll clearly see what Whispering Curls thinks about Zac and the top 47.

See good old Curly only values possessions as a key indicator of a players worth.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/ ... ame%20each.

AFL 2024: The 47 players rated ‘elite’ this season by Champion Data

Champion Data has crunched the numbers to find the AFL’s elite players. Some names are obvious but others have surprised, but only one club in the league was snubbed. See the full list.

Josh Barnes
Josh Barnes
follow
@Josh__Barnes
7 min read
July 31, 2024 - 6:00AM
News Sport Network
4 comments

There is nothing to count for Essendon fans, while Sydney sits pretty on top of the ladder and on top of the list of “elite” players in the AFL this season.

To find who have been the best of the best by the numbers, Champion Data crunched the numbers to provide the top players in each position.

To qualify as “elite” on this list, a player had to be in the top 10 per cent in his position, per player ratings points, with 47 players qualifying.

Player ratings points is a system designed to measure impact on games, with Marcus Bontempelli at the top of the tree this year.

Sadly for the Bombers, they are the only club without a single player rated elite, meaning skipper Zach Merrett has missed the cut, while Collingwood and Fremantle have provided just one name each.

At the other end, Sydney leads all comers with five names.

Some picks are obvious – such as Bontempelli, Charlie Curnow and Nick Daicos.

But others surprised, with Justin McInerney, Matt Rowell and Alex Neal-Bullen making the cut.

Well you see Buzzard this was raised on MIDWEEK TACKLE and they were surprised Zac Merret didn't make it. Odd that there stats matrix has him out yet to the eye of basically all he is ELITE.

Not sure what MIDWEEK TACKLE is, but if its media I'm not surprised it is how you formed an opinion.

Go back to using possessions as your guide to a players value Curly, that works best for you.

[CURLY]

Here is the article that formed Curly's opinion on contested possession stats.

Great work Whispering Ted.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-19/ ... /104113954

Whoops

Given Ive never read that article and no big deal if I had.

I will ask again is Zac Merret in the best 47 players in the League///

Well clearly ' Whispering TED Curly ' has formed an opinion based on todays Herald Sun article.
If you read the article, you'll clearly see what Whispering Curls thinks about Zac and the top 47.

See good old Curly only values possessions as a key indicator of a players worth.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/ ... ame%20each.

AFL 2024: The 47 players rated ‘elite’ this season by Champion Data

Champion Data has crunched the numbers to find the AFL’s elite players. Some names are obvious but others have surprised, but only one club in the league was snubbed. See the full list.

Josh Barnes
Josh Barnes
follow
@Josh__Barnes
7 min read
July 31, 2024 - 6:00AM
News Sport Network
4 comments

There is nothing to count for Essendon fans, while Sydney sits pretty on top of the ladder and on top of the list of “elite” players in the AFL this season.

To find who have been the best of the best by the numbers, Champion Data crunched the numbers to provide the top players in each position.

To qualify as “elite” on this list, a player had to be in the top 10 per cent in his position, per player ratings points, with 47 players qualifying.

Player ratings points is a system designed to measure impact on games, with Marcus Bontempelli at the top of the tree this year.

Sadly for the Bombers, they are the only club without a single player rated elite, meaning skipper Zach Merrett has missed the cut, while Collingwood and Fremantle have provided just one name each.

At the other end, Sydney leads all comers with five names.

Some picks are obvious – such as Bontempelli, Charlie Curnow and Nick Daicos.

But others surprised, with Justin McInerney, Matt Rowell and Alex Neal-Bullen making the cut.

Well you see Buzzard this was raised on MIDWEEK TACKLE and they were surprised Zac Merret didn't make it. Odd that there stats matrix has him out yet to the eye of basically all he is ELITE.

Not sure what MIDWEEK TACKLE is, but if its media I'm not surprised it is how you formed an opinion.

Go back to using possessions as your guide to a players value Curly, that works best for you.

Buzzard did I say I agreed? I asked the question you can chose to have an opinion or not. As usual though you go to the I will try and be humerous and bag the poster. Go drink your warm milk and go back to bed.

[CURLY]

Here is the article that formed Curly's opinion on contested possession stats.

Great work Whispering Ted.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-19/ ... /104113954

Whoops

Given Ive never read that article and no big deal if I had.

I will ask again is Zac Merret in the best 47 players in the League///

Well clearly ' Whispering TED Curly ' has formed an opinion based on todays Herald Sun article.
If you read the article, you'll clearly see what Whispering Curls thinks about Zac and the top 47.

See good old Curly only values possessions as a key indicator of a players worth.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/ ... ame%20each.

AFL 2024: The 47 players rated ‘elite’ this season by Champion Data

Champion Data has crunched the numbers to find the AFL’s elite players. Some names are obvious but others have surprised, but only one club in the league was snubbed. See the full list.

Josh Barnes
Josh Barnes
follow
@Josh__Barnes
7 min read
July 31, 2024 - 6:00AM
News Sport Network
4 comments

There is nothing to count for Essendon fans, while Sydney sits pretty on top of the ladder and on top of the list of “elite” players in the AFL this season.

To find who have been the best of the best by the numbers, Champion Data crunched the numbers to provide the top players in each position.

To qualify as “elite” on this list, a player had to be in the top 10 per cent in his position, per player ratings points, with 47 players qualifying.

Player ratings points is a system designed to measure impact on games, with Marcus Bontempelli at the top of the tree this year.

Sadly for the Bombers, they are the only club without a single player rated elite, meaning skipper Zach Merrett has missed the cut, while Collingwood and Fremantle have provided just one name each.

At the other end, Sydney leads all comers with five names.

Some picks are obvious – such as Bontempelli, Charlie Curnow and Nick Daicos.

But others surprised, with Justin McInerney, Matt Rowell and Alex Neal-Bullen making the cut.

Well you see Buzzard this was raised on MIDWEEK TACKLE and they were surprised Zac Merret didn't make it. Odd that there stats matrix has him out yet to the eye of basically all he is ELITE.

Not sure what MIDWEEK TACKLE is, but if its media I'm not surprised it is how you formed an opinion.

Go back to using possessions as your guide to a players value Curly, that works best for you.

Buzzard did I say I agreed? I asked the question you can chose to have an opinion or not. As usual though you go to the I will try and be humerous and bag the poster. Go drink your warm milk and go back to bed.

[St Dave]

Here's a real time example.
Show a mathematician from Kazakhstan the current ladder and ask who appears best side.
Well it seems Sydney. Clearly.
But we know it's not Sydney.
Stats can mislead.

Interesting thought experiment, but depending on the question and how much data you give them you might be surprised. Kind of gets to the heart of Curly issue, because one stat in isolation can be interesting, but the context around it is almost just as important.

Best side all year? If the season ended now that is clearly Sydney (game and a half up and clearly best percentage).

Give them the form ladder too and ask who is the best over the last month? Maybe they say Brisbane.

Or if you give them who has played who over the last few weeks and maybe they say the Bulldogs given they have beaten 3 top 6 teams in a row.

[Scollop]

Kind of gets to the heart of Curly issue, because one stat in isolation can be interesting, but the context around it is almost just as important.

Bingo!!!!

CURLY started this thread because of a thought bubble triggered when watching Coll vs Rich and the first quarter stats rattled off by Nathan Buckley regarding Nick Daicos.

CURLY was arguing that Daicos's contested possessions were out of the normal bounds and understanding. He claimed Daicos was credited with contested numbers even when he got the ball (these are his words) "10 metres out in the clear".

That was a lie based on the prejudice he had for this player because of a handful of games where he developed this notion about this player who was still in his first or second year of football.

CURLY's preconceived ideas regarding this players worth won't change even when someone presents facts and evidence to him. He refuses to budge.

I gave details of 6 contested possessions for N Daicos and because there was 1 questionable one (in his mind)...he reckons that proved his original post.

I tried to give my honest assessment of each of those contests and that's what they truly were.CURLY has created a fantasy in his own mind that Daicos won all his footy when there's a loose footy and 'he's in the clear by 10m' ... That's not biased... it's dumb

With 5 minutes to go in the first quarter one of the 'expert comments' guys on Foxfooty said Naicos had 11 touches (mostly contested) and 5 of these were ground ball gets.

1. Stoppage deep in Richmond's forward line. Ball thrown in from boundary goes to ground. At least 4-5 Richmond players around (virtually within inches). Nick picks up and quickly handballs.

2. Naicos follows up because his hb missed it's target. A Richmond player picked up the ball and was trying to kick. Naicos smothers...collects another contested ground ball and gives off a hball before being tackled by 2 Richmond players.

3. High ball kicked to the wing. D Cameron in marking contest. Naicos front and ctre collects footy. 2 Richmond players just miss intercepting his hball.

Again a contested possession.

4. Forward of wing but not at CHF, 4 Collingwood players vs 2 Richmond. Ground ball to be won. The Collingwood players shepherd Naicos to give him enough time to pick up and kick it forward. Again the heat is there within inches.

5. Pies kick goal number 3. Ball in the ctre. There's a secondary ball up and it's another genuine contested ball win. Naicos gets a kick while getting tackled.

AGAIN a ground ball in dispute and we're not talking about a player loose in the normal meaning of the word 'loose'. Its a stoppage ffs!!

6. Ball up in the ctre after a Collingwood goal to Will Hoskin-Elliot. It's Naicos versus 3 Richmond players to win the ground ball after the ruck tap. Naicos bench presses one of the Richmond players (no. 7) to give himself enough time to win the ball. It's considered a ground ball get because the footy AGAIN is in dispute. There's genuine heat from 3 Richmond blokes - no.7 and the ruckman no. 32 and he's got Prestia (no. 3) about to tackle him. He gets a disposal with a handball

[CURLY]

Kind of gets to the heart of Curly issue, because one stat in isolation can be interesting, but the context around it is almost just as important.

CURLY started this thread because of a thought bubble triggered when watching Coll vs Rich and the first quarter stats rattled off by Nathan Buckley regarding Nick Daicos.

CURLY was arguing that Daicos's contested possessions were out of the normal bounds and understanding. He claimed Daicos was credited with contested numbers even when he got the ball (these are his words) "10 metres out in the clear".

That was a lie based on the prejudice he had for this player because of a handful of games where he developed this notion about this player who was still in his first or second year of football.

CURLY's preconceived ideas regarding this players worth won't change even when someone presents facts and evidence to him. He refuses to budge.

I gave details of 6 contested possessions for N Daicos and because there was 1 questionable one (in his mind)...he reckons that proved his original post.

I tried to give my honest assessment of each of those contests and that's what they truly were.CURLY has created a fantasy in his own mind that Daicos won all his footy when there's a loose footy and 'he's in the clear by 10m' ... That's not biased... it's dumb

You used an example of a contested possession when Buckley was sheparded by team mates allowing him access to a clear ball. The notion that a lose ball is now a contested possesion is farsical and doesn't give a true indication of the players game.

[Scollop]

What the f*** is it that you don't understand... you're ignoring 5 clean classy contested possessions and focussing in one questionable one?

It wasn't a shepard in the true sense where someone is clear. They were jostling and putting the Richmond players off balance. I described it that way..but others might have described it differently...what does it matter

You're whole original point about Daicos was a fabrication.

The fact that Naicos has the skill to do a one grab pick up and execute a disposal (while opposition is tackling him or inches from winning the ball themselves) is part of the beauty of our game. When are you going to accept that... when he's All Australian 3 times and wins a Brownlow?

[CURLY]

What the f*** is it that you don't understand... you're ignoring 5 clean classy contested possessions and focussing in one questionable one?

It wasn't a shepard in the true sense where someone is clear. They were jostling and putting the Richmond players off balance. I described it that way..but others might have described it differently...what does it matter

You're whole original point about Daicos was a fabrication.

The fact that Naicos has the skill to do a one grab pick up and execute a disposal (while opposition is tackling him or inches from winning the ball themselves) is part of the beauty of our game. When are you going to accept that... when he's All Australian 3 times and wins a Brownlow?

The front and center the ball his handball is almost smothered. Is that contested is it? What don't you understand about this.

Stop also bringing Daicos up also as this applies to all players.

[Scollop]

I know you're challenged but seriously FO mate

Each time he earns a contested possession he is winning a contested ball. Do you fkn know what that word means? It means the opposition has an equal chance of winning it!!

Each contested possession is won where the opposition is next to him. In some cases they have a better chance of getting it, but he is faster, moves into positions to guard the ball or puts them off balance or uses his strength to shake off tacklers.

[CURLY]

I know you're challenged but seriously FO mate

Each time he earns a contested possession he is winning a contested ball. Do you fkn know what that word means? It means the opposition has an equal chance of winning it!!

Each contested possession is won where the opposition is next to him. In some cases they have a better chance of getting it, but he is faster, moves into positions to guard the ball or puts them off balance or uses his strength to shake off tacklers.

Now listen to me again. The term contested should actually mean the ball is contested. You know putting your body in a position to take possession while getting contact. Thats a contested possession. Go back watch StKilda v Essendon 14 to go in the 3rd watch Hunter Clark win a contested possession and give it off.
I don't give a toss what the matrix is as its wrong.

[Scollop]

I know you're challenged but seriously FO mate

Each time he earns a contested possession he is winning a contested ball. Do you fkn know what that word means? It means the opposition has an equal chance of winning it!!

Each contested possession is won where the opposition is next to him. In some cases they have a better chance of getting it, but he is faster, moves into positions to guard the ball or puts them off balance or uses his strength to shake off tacklers.

Now listen to me again. The term contested should actually mean the ball is contested. You know putting your body in a position to take possession while getting contact. Thats a contested possession. Go back watch StKilda v Essendon 14 to go in the 3rd watch Hunter Clark win a contested possession and give it off.
I don't give a toss what the matrix is as its wrong.

Interesting

If I said to you go back and watch Nick Daicos in that first quarter against Richmond.... would you do it??

I bet you a million bucks you'd rather try and keep arguing your point rather than rewatch that first quarter

[CURLY]

I know you're challenged but seriously FO mate

Each time he earns a contested possession he is winning a contested ball. Do you fkn know what that word means? It means the opposition has an equal chance of winning it!!

Each contested possession is won where the opposition is next to him. In some cases they have a better chance of getting it, but he is faster, moves into positions to guard the ball or puts them off balance or uses his strength to shake off tacklers.

Now listen to me again. The term contested should actually mean the ball is contested. You know putting your body in a position to take possession while getting contact. Thats a contested possession. Go back watch StKilda v Essendon 14 to go in the 3rd watch Hunter Clark win a contested possession and give it off.
I don't give a toss what the matrix is as its wrong.

Interesting

If I said to you go back and watch Nick Daicos in that first quarter against Richmond.... would you do it??

I bet you a million bucks you'd rather try and keep arguing your point rather than rewatch that first quarter

I don't need to I watched it. I have posted countless times that without body contact a contested possession isn't that.

[St Dave]

I know you're challenged but seriously FO mate

Each time he earns a contested possession he is winning a contested ball. Do you fkn know what that word means? It means the opposition has an equal chance of winning it!!

Each contested possession is won where the opposition is next to him. In some cases they have a better chance of getting it, but he is faster, moves into positions to guard the ball or puts them off balance or uses his strength to shake off tacklers.

Now listen to me again. The term contested should actually mean the ball is contested. You know putting your body in a position to take possession while getting contact. Thats a contested possession. Go back watch StKilda v Essendon 14 to go in the 3rd watch Hunter Clark win a contested possession and give it off.
I don't give a toss what the matrix is as its wrong.

You should read that abc article that was posted. Very interesting exploring how contested position is defined. Just because you don't like the definition doesn't make it wrong, you just want a different more specific stat

[Scollop]

I love Hunter Clark as much as any Saint supporter

I know he's a beast at the contest... but the simple fact is that you do things differently as players and you win contested footy differently. Clark doesn't have the speed of Daicos

The other thing to note. Most of us have been really praiseworthy of Hunter recently and a lot of us have given him votes for best on ground...

I didn't see many coaches voting for him. And that's another thing. Why would you think Nick Daicos is just about leading every coaches award?

Do you think it's because they value his loose ball gets and his handball receives? Do you think a dick like yourself knows more than the AFL coaches?

[CURLY]

I know you're challenged but seriously FO mate

Each time he earns a contested possession he is winning a contested ball. Do you fkn know what that word means? It means the opposition has an equal chance of winning it!!

Each contested possession is won where the opposition is next to him. In some cases they have a better chance of getting it, but he is faster, moves into positions to guard the ball or puts them off balance or uses his strength to shake off tacklers.

Now listen to me again. The term contested should actually mean the ball is contested. You know putting your body in a position to take possession while getting contact. Thats a contested possession. Go back watch StKilda v Essendon 14 to go in the 3rd watch Hunter Clark win a contested possession and give it off.
I don't give a toss what the matrix is as its wrong.

You should read that abc article that was posted. Very interesting exploring how contested position is defined. Just because you don't like the definition doesn't make it wrong, you just want a different more specific stat

I'm saying that if someone said to you that 2 players both had 32 touches and 20 contested and one was Dangerfield the other was Brad Hill what goes through your mind.

[Scollop]

Hahahaha

Brad Hill is going to get 20 contested possessions

You heard it here first in fantasyland

[CURLY]

I love Hunter Clark as much as any Saint supporter

I know he's a beast at the contest... but the simple fact is that you do things differently as players and you win contested footy differently. Clark doesn't have the speed of Daicos

The other thing to note. Most of us have been really praiseworthy of Hunter recently and a lot of us have given him votes for best on ground...

I didn't see many coaches voting for him. And that's another thing. Why would you think Nick Daicos is just about leading every coaches award?

Do you think it's because they value his loose ball gets and his handball receives? Do you think a dick like yourself knows more than the AFL coaches?

WTF are you going on about. This isn't about how good Hunter is. That bit of play just stood out as a contested possession

[CURLY]

Hahahaha

Brad Hill is going to get 20 contested possessions

You heard it here first in fantasyland

Well with the definition of a contested possession he can and he doesn't have to make contact with another player.