Stats are a garbage argument

[Sanctorum]

Mark Twain famously observed: “There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics”

[Scollop]

The weather in Melbourne is perfect for staying indoors and wasting your day on Saintsational

[CURLY]

Let’s try this…

Why is this on your mind Curly?

Daicos had 3 contested possessions in the first 5 minutes. Not one was he in a contested situation. The way these stats are measured are just not a true indication of a player.

OMG, I speak Curly

Unfortunately to many run to stats and use them as there only justification as to a players performance.

And who is this 'too many' that CURLY speaks of?

None other than a former AFL coach. Sorry...long post but bare with me please.

Unfortunately...my Mrs is a Collingwood supporter. She couldn't go to the game yesterday afternoon and so we watched the replay today.

So...I got my pad out and wrote down every contested disposal for Nick Daicos in that first 20 minutes and how he got them. I ignored any hb receives or marks etc.

1. Stoppage deep in Richmond's forward line. Ball thrown in from boundary goes to ground. At least 4-5 Richmond players around (virtually within inches). Nick picks up and quickly handballs.

2. Naicos follows up because his hb missed it's target. A Richmond player picked up the ball and was trying to kick. Naicos smothers...collects another contested ground ball and gives off a hball before being tackled by 2 Richmond players.

3. High ball kicked to the wing. D Cameron in marking contest. Naicos front and ctre collects footy. 2 Richmond players just miss intercepting his hball.

Again a contested possession.

4. Forward of wing but not at CHF, 4 Collingwood players vs 2 Richmond. Ground ball to be won. The Collingwood players shepherd Naicos to give him enough time to pick up and kick it forward. Again the heat is there within inches.

5. Pies kick goal number 3. Ball in the ctre. There's a secondary ball up and it's another genuine contested ball win. Naicos gets a kick while getting tackled.

AGAIN a ground ball in dispute and we're not talking about a player loose in the normal meaning of the word 'loose'. Its a stoppage ffs!!

6. Ball up in the ctre after a Collingwood goal to Will Hoskin-Elliot. It's Naicos versus 3 Richmond players to win the ground ball after the ruck tap. Naicos bench presses one of the Richmond players (no. 7) to give himself enough time to win the ball. It's considered a ground ball get because the footy AGAIN is in dispute. There's genuine heat from 3 Richmond blokes - no.7 and the ruckman no. 32 and he's got Prestia (no. 3) about to tackle him. He gets a disposal with a handball

With 5 minutes to go in the first quarter one of the 'expert comments' guys on Foxfooty said Naicos had 11 touches (mostly contested) and 5 of these were ground ball gets.

Only an absolutely one eyed St Kilda fan...or a really 'special' type would say that Daicos got his contested ground ball gets while being "loose" and no one within "10 metres of him".

CURLY thinks he knows more than Nathan Buckley about Aussie rules.

Hilarious post. Daicos shepherded by 3 players allowing him to pick up the ball. Equals contested.

Exactly my point cheers.

[Scollop]

He wasn't free. He wasn't 10m in the clear. Once a slight block was put on... the Tigers players were within inches of firstly stopping him from getting it and then smothering or intercepting it

[Scollop]

There is no point sharp enough to penetrate through some people's thick head

[CURLY]

He wasn't free. He wasn't 10m in the clear. Once a slight block was put on... the Tigers players were within inches of firstly stopping him from getting it and then smothering or intercepting it

Inches oh please.

Anyway the term contested possession infers there is a contest. A loose ball with no body contact is not contested.

[Scollop]

I refuse to interact with you anymore. You're incorrigible

[Scollop]

Here's an idea from CURLY for the AFL rules committee

CURLY wants to change the definition of a contested possession to be ONLY those that an opposition player has their hands on the ball at the same time.

You've got to prize it out of their grasp or wrestle them or ...poke them in the eyes the way Moe used to do to Curly in the Three Stooges

[CURLY]

I refuse to interact with you anymore. You're incorrigible

Look I understand what your saying your agreeing with what Premier data or who ever else has created the matrix.

It just doesn’t stack up to the eye test of what actually takes place.

[CURLY]

Here's an idea from CURLY for the AFL rules committee

CURLY wants to change the definition of a contested possession to be ONLY those that an opposition player has their hands on the ball at the same time.

You've got to prize it out of their grasp or wrestle them or ...poke them in the eyes the way Moe used to do to Curly in the Three Stooges

Unfortunately like many I judge a contested possession as being just that a possession won in a contest.

Sorry if that doesn’t sit well with you Fantasy Football players.

[Big Max]

Stats have a place, but they don't always tell the full story.

I am a SuperCoach player, and can advise there are good SuperCoach players and bad Supercoach players.

There are many champions of the game who accumulate relatively modest statistics, and plenty of modest players who often accumulate lots of SuperCoach statists.

The first year I played SuperCoach, I drafted a team of excellent players but unfortunately they didn't all accumulate Ratings as I expected. Now days I recruit those players who are known point scorers. In other words, it's not the eye-test, it's the spreadsheet choice.

So I suppose I can agree with Curly to a certain extent.

[Scollop]

Forward of wing but not at CHF, 4 Collingwood players vs 2 Richmond. Ground ball to be won. The Collingwood players shepherd Naicos to give him enough time to pick up and kick it forward. Again the heat is there within inches.

CURLY wants to use this above to strengthen his case. A case that was built on a fabrication mind you

I was simply giving an honest assessment of the incident for this one possession

I didn't paint it as a heroic contested ball win or a brilliant ground ball get.

It's my perception that without his team mates there... he might of struggled to win and then also struggled to get a clear disposal.

HOWEVER...Good ol CURL's has totally ignored every other contested possession and every other detail in my post to him. The fokker will never concede

[CURLY]

Forward of wing but not at CHF, 4 Collingwood players vs 2 Richmond. Ground ball to be won. The Collingwood players shepherd Naicos to give him enough time to pick up and kick it forward. Again the heat is there within inches.

CURLY wants to use this above to strengthen his case. A case that was built on a fabrication mind you

I was simply giving an honest assessment of the incident for this one possession

I didn't paint it as a heroic contested ball won or a brilliant ground ball get.

It's my perception that without his team mates there he might if struggled to win and then also struggled to get a clear disposal off...

HOWEVER...Good ol CURL's has totally ignored every other contested possession and every other detail in my post to him. The fokker will never concede

Again no contest. Keep scratching and inches all four

Just ask yourself who would you say is the better contested player Dangerfield JHF Viney Libba or Naicos

[Scollop]

Thanks for the information Big Max. I've never played it or any other similar game ...but I might consider it in future

Supercoach has no bearing on specific incidents in a real game which occurred yesterday.

I also agree with the general statement that stats don't tell the full story. I have stated that in many posts over the years

[D.B.Cooper]

Forward of wing but not at CHF, 4 Collingwood players vs 2 Richmond. Ground ball to be won. The Collingwood players shepherd Naicos to give him enough time to pick up and kick it forward. Again the heat is there within inches.

CURLY wants to use this above to strengthen his case. A case that was built on a fabrication mind you

I was simply giving an honest assessment of the incident for this one possession

I didn't paint it as a heroic contested ball win or a brilliant ground ball get.

It's my perception that without his team mates there... he might of struggled to win and then also struggled to get a clear disposal.

HOWEVER...Good ol CURL's has totally ignored every other contested possession and every other detail in my post to him. The fokker will never concede

One piece of advice Scollop…

Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Mark Twain

[Scollop]

Forward of wing but not at CHF, 4 Collingwood players vs 2 Richmond. Ground ball to be won. The Collingwood players shepherd Naicos to give him enough time to pick up and kick it forward. Again the heat is there within inches.

CURLY wants to use this above to strengthen his case. A case that was built on a fabrication mind you

I was simply giving an honest assessment of the incident for this one possession

I didn't paint it as a heroic contested ball win or a brilliant ground ball get.

It's my perception that without his team mates there... he might of struggled to win and then also struggled to get a clear disposal.

HOWEVER...Good ol CURL's has totally ignored every other contested possession and every other detail in my post to him. The fokker will never concede

One piece of advice Scollop…

Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Mark Twain

It's exactly what I was thinking once he replied to my really long post. It's tiresome at times

The info was basically to highlight how ridiculous his comments were regarding Daicos.

Sure... Daicos is a young guy who got a lot of uncontested footy in his first 18 months or so...but he's not doing that now...and he certainly didn't do that for his first 3 possessions yesterday

I challenge anyone to watch the first 10 minutes of Coll vs Rich. If you could be arsed

[B.M]

We should sack our 300k data analyst

Ross should stop quoting stats

Going into huddles with 3 boards (2 with stats) and data print outs to confirm his message

If you think possessions are meaningless, efficiency is meaningless, metres gained is meaningless, time in possession, time in front half, stoppage clearances and importantly conversion stats are not important
But a fans completely clueless eye test is

You are either mad, or should be getting paid 1M in clubland

Truth is
Most fans know FA about footy at that level, we like to pretend we do, but really we don’t.

It’s like those supporters bagging the fk out of Essendon players, most of the fat loud mouths couldn’t get a kick off an electric fence.

[CURLY]

Forward of wing but not at CHF, 4 Collingwood players vs 2 Richmond. Ground ball to be won. The Collingwood players shepherd Naicos to give him enough time to pick up and kick it forward. Again the heat is there within inches.

CURLY wants to use this above to strengthen his case. A case that was built on a fabrication mind you

I was simply giving an honest assessment of the incident for this one possession

I didn't paint it as a heroic contested ball win or a brilliant ground ball get.

It's my perception that without his team mates there... he might of struggled to win and then also struggled to get a clear disposal.

HOWEVER...Good ol CURL's has totally ignored every other contested possession and every other detail in my post to him. The fokker will never concede

One piece of advice Scollop…

Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Mark Twain

It's exactly what I was thinking once he replied to my really long post. It's tiresome at times

The info was basically to highlight how ridiculous his comments were regarding Daicos.

Sure... Daicos is a young guy who got a lot of uncontested footy in his first 18 months or so...but he's not doing that now...and he certainly didn't do that for his first 3 possessions yesterday

I challenge anyone to watch the first 10 minutes of Coll vs Rich. If you could be arsed

Again I will repeat the measure of a contested possession is not a true indication of the act. If a player can be Shepard and grab a loose ball does it compare to grabbing a ball with a player cannoning into you?

The same with tackles rattling off tackle numbers are garbage without context.

[CURLY]

We should sack our 300k data analyst

Ross should stop quoting stats

Going into huddles with 3 boards (2 with stats) and data print outs to confirm his message

If you think possessions are meaningless, efficiency is meaningless, metres gained is meaningless, time in possession, time in front half, stoppage clearances and importantly conversion stats are not important
But a fans completely clueless eye test is

You are either mad, or should be getting paid 1M in clubland

Truth is
Most fans know FA about footy at that level, we like to pretend we do, but really we don’t.

It’s like those supporters bagging the fk out of Essendon players, most of the fat loud mouths couldn’t get a kick off an electric fence.

Not saying all stats don’t matter. Not saying they aren’t used.

I’m just saying stats in isolation don’t tell the correct story.

[B.M]

Looking at the game Curly

There was 1 stat that stood out (besides converting) that saw us control the game

[CURLY]

Looking at the game Curly

There was 1 stat that stood out (besides converting) that saw us control the game

I thought our handball receive was better.

You?

[B.M]

Uncontested marks

We out worked them on the outside

[CURLY]

Uncontested marks

We out worked them on the outside

Uncontested marks see that is a stat that can be measured and is done so correctly.

[D.B.Cooper]

Here is the article that formed Curly's opinion on contested possession stats.

Great work Whispering Ted.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-19/ ... /104113954

[CURLY]

Here is the article that formed Curly's opinion on contested possession stats.

Great work Whispering Ted.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-19/ ... /104113954

My concern is how there measured.

Think Lenny Hayes Joel Selwood