..at the risk of positivity ..

[Sanctorum]

I was chatting with a couple of Lions supporters after golf this morning, they said they would offer a first round pick, plus gift-wrapped Hipwood and Daniher in the deal to get hold of Max King.

I'm sure if you ask suporters from pretty well all other teams they would love to have King in their team.

He's not a messiah, doesn't need to be, just stay on his current course to become elite in a year or two....

And Vort, apart from the other 4 key forwards I presented stats for, thought I'd take a look at club champion Nick Riewoldt, and found the following:

85 games, 151 goals, 103 behinds

Which compares to Max King's 71 games, 140 goals, 113 behinds

Still think King's not up there with the best?????

[The Fireman]

I was chatting with a couple of Lions supporters after golf this morning, they said they would offer a first round pick, plus gift-wrapped Hipwood and Daniher in the deal to get hold of Max King.

I'm sure if you ask suporters from pretty well all other teams they would love to have King in their team.

He's not a messiah, doesn't need to be, just stay on his current course to become elite in a year or two....

And Vort, apart from the other 4 key forwards I presented stats for, thought I'd take a look at club champion Nick Riewoldt, and found the following:

85 games, 151 goals, 103 behinds

Which compares to Max King's 71 games, 140 goals, 113 behinds

Still think King's not up there with the best?????

he posts for reactions like yours.

[B.M]

I agree Max should be a not negotiable

But Nick was a CHF with a Coleman Medallist in front of him at that age (and he played a bit of CHB in his second season

Measuring Nick in goals alone is not a reasonable comparison

In his 4th season 22yo Nick was. Dual B&F winner AFLPA MVP

He took a league record 256 marks in his 4th year

[Sanctorum]

I agree Max should be a not negotiable

But Nick was a CHF with a Coleman Medallist in front of him at that age (and he played a bit of CHB in his second season

Measuring Nick in goals alone is not a reasonable comparison

In his 4th season 22yo Nick was. Dual B&F winner AFLPA MVP

He took a league record 256 marks in his 4th year

Good point, different types of players, Nick had exceptional endurance, always led well and fierce in his attack on the ball.

it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Max will reach a similar level, perhaps his shoulder reconstructions continue to cause him some anxiety.

[spert]

Oh FFS, King is worth 10 Caminitis who is not even a VFL quality footballer at this point in time.

Glad the Club doesn't listen to hairbrain suggestions.

Caminiti is 3 years behind King in age and development. If they were both 20yo and I was wanting to build a premiership team I would select Caminiti every day of the week. Solely because he is aggressive, he gives second efforts, he chases and tackles and lifts his team mates around him with his enthusiasm. Caminiti has also shown he is pretty resilient and has the frame to fill out into a big strong unit, which is showing now with his rucking. King is always going to be a string bean and as a result will always be injury prone.

King has never looked like he enjoys playing the game its just something he does because he is good at it. Every week it looks like a chore to him and something he would rather not be doing. I dont know if he has always played so sulky but his body language and attitude needs a major shake up IMO. He is a good player but I doubt very much he is ever going to reach the levels his potential shows.

I think what we are seeing now, is as good as you will get with Max. He's a skilled tall athletic player, but no superstar.

[B.M]

Incorrect

His best footy will be at 27/28yo

With 3 or 4 uninterrupted years of footy

[freely]

They're saying his twin will be AA. Surely that's indicative of his potential. And unfortunately a clear demo of how rubbish we are at developing players compared to practically any other team.

[Nick DalSanto Claus]

Haven't decades of trading stuff ups and watching players leave our club to become premiership players elsewhere taught us a lesson?

The successful clubs rarely, if ever, trade out their best players. Max King should have the, "Look, but don't touch," label stuck to him.

In any event, Max is in discussions with the club to secure him beyond 2026. That should be a strong indication that he is considered to be part the foundations for our next premiership. And thank goodness for that!

[Otiman]

Max has previously held most of the bargaining power in his contract deals in the past. Don't think that will be the case for his next contract.

[Nick DalSanto Claus]

I'm firmly in the positivity camp. I believe we have one of the most promising 23 and under groups in the competition.

In addition, we have a number of seasoned veterans who are important to the development of this group. Yes, we need an elite FA in addition to another one equivalent to a Steele, Crouch or Henry type.

If we add one more draft like 2023, I believe our rebuild will be largely complete.

We are closer than many think. I know it's hard to believe that given our current position, but consider the external factors.

We've had an unbelievably poor draw. We've covered more kilometres than the Leyland Brothers, and had a number of short turnarounds.

Throw in a long injury list early on, and a number of close losses and there you have it. 15the on the ladder, with a 4-8 record.

On the plus side, the flow of injuries has subsided, and we hardly play away from home for the last 11 games.

As for the style of game we are playing, I'm the first to admit it ain't pretty, but I have faith that these are the "growing pains" associated with RTB teaching the list an effective and sustainable game style. Teaching defensive style first is a standard method of developing individual players and teams.

I remember similar criticisms of RTB in 2007, when he took over a fabulously talented team and took it down to 9the place. The results, the foundations of which were laid in 2007, were seen in 2008-11.

Some will accuse me of drinking RTB's Kool-Aide, however I believe he's the man to set the base for long-term success.

He has Boris as a natural successor, a man who is already respected and well known to the list. I would be very surprised if RTB coaches beyond 2026. Boris is the perfect man to carry out such a succession plan.

The admin. of the club appears stable and capable. We have a long-overdue focus on football from the board, with minimal interference of a Simon Lethlean type. Dalrymple, Delina and Sarkidjian have been important acquisitions to the staff.

So at that point, M'Lud, the defense rests. In RTB I trust. Patience grasshoppers. Remember, Collingwood and Melbourne went down to 17th just two years before their most recent premierships. Stay calm, and don't panic!

[Scollop]

Good post NDS Claus, but just need to correct a couple of things re Collingwood and Melbourne. They both won flags 2 years after dropping to the bottom of the ladder (not "the year before")...but both showed they could compete at the pointy end.

Collingwood changed coach after they "went down to 17th". In 2021 when Buckley and Collingwood parted ways, they were essentially the same line up that played in a Grand Final a few years before that. We all know that they were a kick away (or a free kick away some would argue) from winning the 2018 flag.

The year was 2021 when Robert Harvey became caretaker coach of Collingwood and they finished 17th. In 2022 under a new coach they finished 4th on the ladder.

Both Collingwood and Melbourne had played in prelims just 2 or 3 years prio to winning their recent premierships. That also tells you that their lists were experienced and capable of September action.

With Melbourne, they got to a prelim in 2018 with their young stars Petracca and Oliver. In 2019 they plummeted in form. In 2020 they finished 9th and Goodwin hung on to his job with the Demons brains trust employing Choco Williams to provide the support and the finishing touches that they needed.

Everything clicked and the Demons power and talent was unleashed a year after Choco arrived. We got to witness a history making GF in Perth in 2021....Oh, forgot to add....the Demons had 5 All Australians in the year they won it.

[Vortex]

Good post NDS Claus, but just need to correct a couple of things re Collingwood and Melbourne. They both won flags 2 years after dropping to the bottom of the ladder (not "the year before")...but both showed they could compete at the pointy end.

Collingwood changed coach after they "went down to 17th". In 2021 when Buckley and Collingwood parted ways, they were essentially the same line up that played in a Grand Final a few years before that. We all know that they were a kick away (or a free kick away some would argue) from winning the 2018 flag.

The year was 2021 when Robert Harvey became caretaker coach of Collingwood and they finished 17th. In 2022 under a new coach they finished 4th on the ladder.

Both Collingwood and Melbourne had played in prelims just 2 or 3 years prio to winning their recent premierships. That also tells you that their lists were experienced and capable of September action.

With Melbourne, they got to a prelim in 2018 with their young stars Petracca and Oliver. In 2019 they plummeted in form. In 2020 they finished 9th and Goodwin hung on to his job with the Demons brains trust employing Choco Williams to provide the support and the finishing touches that they needed.

Everything clicked and the Demons power and talent was unleashed a year after Choco arrived. We got to witness a history making GF in Perth in 2021....Oh, forgot to add....the Demons had 5 All Australians in the year they won it.

Drmons are proof Covid Cups aren't as valuable as full strength Cups.

[Scollop]

Rubbish. The Bulldogs and Melbourne Grand Final in 2021 was one of the best games of football I've ever seen.

I remember their former captain Nathan Jones missing out on getting a game. Melbourne have wasted their window of opportunity and wasted the last few years with the talent they had on their list.

The culture issues reported in the papers and a couple of other things unravelled their season last year again. At one point they'd won 10 in a row.

They need a clean out at the top. Goodwin and half the football department need to go.

[Vortex]

Rubbish. The Bulldogs and Melbourne Grand Final in 2021 was one of the best games of football I've ever seen.

I remember their former captain Nathan Jones missing out on getting a game. Melbourne have wasted their window of opportunity and wasted the last few years with the talent they had on their list.

The culture issues reported in the papers and a couple of other things unravelled their season last year. At one point they'd won 10 in a row.

They just aren't....the comp was significantly compromised...look at how the Dogs were significantly disadvantaged in grand final week...very uneven build ups ...and thst was just grand final week.

[Scollop]

That could be a reason to say the Dogs lost, but you could look at Grand finals played at the MCG in the last 40 years and say that 'one team was disadvantaged' on about a dozen occasions

Every flag that's been won at the G isn't a fair and even contest with both sides having an equal build up

[Nick DalSanto Claus]

Good post NDS Claus, but just need to correct a couple of things re Collingwood and Melbourne. They both won flags 2 years after dropping to the bottom of the ladder (not "the year before")...but both showed they could compete at the pointy end.

Collingwood changed coach after they "went down to 17th". In 2021 when Buckley and Collingwood parted ways, they were essentially the same line up that played in a Grand Final a few years before that. We all know that they were a kick away (or a free kick away some would argue) from winning the 2018 flag.

The year was 2021 when Robert Harvey became caretaker coach of Collingwood and they finished 17th. In 2022 under a new coach they finished 4th on the ladder.

Both Collingwood and Melbourne had played in prelims just 2 or 3 years prio to winning their recent premierships. That also tells you that their lists were experienced and capable of September action.

With Melbourne, they got to a prelim in 2018 with their young stars Petracca and Oliver. In 2019 they plummeted in form. In 2020 they finished 9th and Goodwin hung on to his job with the Demons brains trust employing Choco Williams to provide the support and the finishing touches that they needed.

Everything clicked and the Demons power and talent was unleashed a year after Choco arrived. We got to witness a history making GF in Perth in 2021....Oh, forgot to add....the Demons had 5 All Australians in the year they won it.

Thanks for the correction, Scollop. I knew I'd made that error, but didn't get back to editing it before stumps last night.

The point about the Dees having 5 AA is valid. We have 2 atm, with Marshall on the verge. If Nas keeps going the way he is he'll join them soon.

Hopefully, a couple of others will step up. Darcy Wilson is the obvious suspect at this stage, while still a fair way off.

Keep the faith, sainters. We have for the past 6 decades. RTB 1.0 came so close last time. RTB 3.0 is our best chance to salute again.

[Nick DalSanto Claus]

I wonder if and how Alan Richardson is viewed at Melbourne? It seems the Dees won a premiership in spite of him and Goodwin being in charge, rather than because of them.

Perhaps another testament to the strength of their list. Did Goodwin, do like Alan Joyce when he was at Hawthorn in 1988 and 1991?

[spert]

I wonder if and how Alan Richardson is viewed at Melbourne? It seems the Dees won a premiership in spite of him and Goodwin being in charge, rather than because of them.

Perhaps another testament to the strength of their list. Did Goodwin, do like Alan Joyce when he was at Hawthorn in 1988 and 1991?

I seem to remember we went after Richo due to his high reputation as a player development coach, maybe not so much as a game-day coach. Port really wanted to hold on to him, but we were persistent, and I think Harvs was keen on the top job at that time too. I suspect Richo probably worked with a lot of those Demons premiership players in personal development. I contrast, I don't think Lyon is a player development type of coach.