Yes he would. Self awareness being one of the key traits of good leadership would hopefully indicate this is a good thing.
Will Keeler be the real deal??
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Re: Will Keeler be the real deal??
Disclaimer: posts are my views and shouldn't be taken as fact, even if I am in fact right.
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Re: Will Keeler be the real deal??
Wouldn't be too hard to work that out, I'd question the quality though.
Only four players had 50 games under Lyon in 2012 and went on to be anything decent.
Steven Geary McEvoy and Armitage.
I guess you are good enough or you aren't.
Armo bashed himself around.
Geary captained the club
Steven fell off the perch
McEvoy went to Hawthorn and did ok for himself.
Seb Ross was in his first year.
Not many others survived or stayed.
I'm guessing there are quite a few players who improved when we started losing more games than it takes to make finals.
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Re: Will Keeler be the real deal??
Coaches don’t control the environment- players do
Players can’t be controlled’ they decide themselves if they want to commit to the standards and get the best out of themselves
They may be influenced by other players, ie/Steven Baker and Stephen Milne were best mates with Lenny Hayes who I think had the greatest impact on their careers - both could have been anything or nothing. Both had amazing careers.
The old adage
Do you want to know how successful you will be - introduce me to your best mates
Players can’t be controlled’ they decide themselves if they want to commit to the standards and get the best out of themselves
They may be influenced by other players, ie/Steven Baker and Stephen Milne were best mates with Lenny Hayes who I think had the greatest impact on their careers - both could have been anything or nothing. Both had amazing careers.
The old adage
Do you want to know how successful you will be - introduce me to your best mates
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Re: Will Keeler be the real deal??
Id say from 2002 till 2012, two coaches controlled the environment at St.Kilda.B.M wrote: ↑Fri 19 Jan 2024 11:22pm Coaches don’t control the environment- players do
Players can’t be controlled’ they decide themselves if they want to commit to the standards and get the best out of themselves
They may be influenced by other players, ie/Steven Baker and Stephen Milne were best mates with Lenny Hayes who I think had the greatest impact on their careers - both could have been anything or nothing. Both had amazing careers.
The old adage
Do you want to know how successful you will be - introduce me to your best mates
Ross coined it the end of an era because he had a number of players GWS came after hard and he intended to trade a few of them.
Then the players started controlling the environment. It was a huge success. Lots of club legends were made.
No flags though and no finals till we traded in a bunch of old fellas and rejects.
Re: Will Keeler be the real deal??
The FACT is that, when Brett came across from Hawthorn by Richardson’s invitation and due to their relationship, Brett was dismayed by the lack of a development programme at St Kilda AND called it out
When Brett succeeded Richardson he turbo charged junior development also challenging our younger brigade to push aside the experienced players who were occupying Senior spots
He was assisted by Gallagher whose input included that there was an age demographic deficiency between the few senior players we had of substance and our youth, hence going to the State Leagues for the players we recruited
It was recognised as a short term fix awaiting our youth developing AFL ready bodies
Wilkie remains The rest including Young, Parker, the guy now at Essendon and others I forget have all moved on
The age demographic we sought, being more mature in age were also expected to lead standards - on field and off
A Coach is only as good as his List
St Kilda, with the retirement and losses of players from what was a very competitive side which played in Grand Finals fell away and fell away very quickly including for very specific reasons
Look at the Lists year on year and you will see the reason for the decay - and the start of the recovery to what we have now
Mind you there is still plenty to be done including with the List because there is too much in the fingers crossed category including Keeler and others (they are only kids after all and not First Round Draft Pick kids)
And Ryder was an AFL super star across his career including at St Kilda
It is a pity we did not get him years before we did
IF Keeler gets near Ryder we will be chuffed because he will be competition elite
When Brett succeeded Richardson he turbo charged junior development also challenging our younger brigade to push aside the experienced players who were occupying Senior spots
He was assisted by Gallagher whose input included that there was an age demographic deficiency between the few senior players we had of substance and our youth, hence going to the State Leagues for the players we recruited
It was recognised as a short term fix awaiting our youth developing AFL ready bodies
Wilkie remains The rest including Young, Parker, the guy now at Essendon and others I forget have all moved on
The age demographic we sought, being more mature in age were also expected to lead standards - on field and off
A Coach is only as good as his List
St Kilda, with the retirement and losses of players from what was a very competitive side which played in Grand Finals fell away and fell away very quickly including for very specific reasons
Look at the Lists year on year and you will see the reason for the decay - and the start of the recovery to what we have now
Mind you there is still plenty to be done including with the List because there is too much in the fingers crossed category including Keeler and others (they are only kids after all and not First Round Draft Pick kids)
And Ryder was an AFL super star across his career including at St Kilda
It is a pity we did not get him years before we did
IF Keeler gets near Ryder we will be chuffed because he will be competition elite
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Re: Will Keeler be the real deal??
I hope so but he didn't look too good in the televised VFL matches I saw.
As ex-president Peter Summers said:
“If we are going to be a contender, we may as well plan to win the bloody thing.”
St Kilda - At least we have a Crest!
“If we are going to be a contender, we may as well plan to win the bloody thing.”
St Kilda - At least we have a Crest!
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Re: Will Keeler be the real deal??
What an oversimplification of the complex dynamics of elite sports, especially regarding the roles of coaches, leadership, and team environment.B.M wrote: ↑Fri 19 Jan 2024 11:22pm Coaches don’t control the environment- players do
Players can’t be controlled’ they decide themselves if they want to commit to the standards and get the best out of themselves
They may be influenced by other players, ie/Steven Baker and Stephen Milne were best mates with Lenny Hayes who I think had the greatest impact on their careers - both could have been anything or nothing. Both had amazing careers.
The old adage
Do you want to know how successful you will be - introduce me to your best mates
Coaches in AFL are crucial in creating the game plan and instilling the team's values and style of play. As Paul Hamilton, Assistant Coach at Adelaide Football Club, notes, a coach's philosophy is a systematic plan providing guidance and consistency, ensuring that everyone in the team works towards a common goal. Coaches in AFL have a significant impact on player enjoyment, development, retention, and recruitment, as well as in maintaining a positive environment and developing club culture. This is essential in influencing players' commitment to the team's standards and goals.
Leadership within AFL teams goes beyond just the captain or senior players. It involves setting standards for training, games, and off-field behavior, which significantly influences teammates' behavior and performance. For example, Craig McRae's philosophy at Collingwood focused on acting like winners at all times, demonstrating how a coach's vision and values can shape a team's mindset and culture.
The environment within an AFL club is a significant determinant of its success. David Parkin, an experienced AFL coach, emphasizes that the 'system' or philosophy a coach develops should include clear guidelines for consistency, trust, cooperation, understanding, and expectation. This aligns with the broader team environment and culture, which influences players' attitudes and commitment.
While players are influenced by their peers, this influence is more effective within a structured environment with clear goals and values, usually established by the coaching staff and team leaders. However, individual responsibility is also crucial. Players need to be motivated and committed to achieving the desired outcomes..
Disclaimer: posts are my views and shouldn't be taken as fact, even if I am in fact right.
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Re: Will Keeler be the real deal??
No
It’s a simplification that one believes a coach can ‘control’ things
He can set expectations
He can implement a game plan
He can manage assistants
But ultimately performance and adherence is up to the player’s attitude and ability
This notion that players are disciples of a coach and they will be molded in their image is very naive
It’s a simplification that one believes a coach can ‘control’ things
He can set expectations
He can implement a game plan
He can manage assistants
But ultimately performance and adherence is up to the player’s attitude and ability
This notion that players are disciples of a coach and they will be molded in their image is very naive
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Re: Will Keeler be the real deal??
I think that's one perspective. Billings and Gresham would have another.B.M wrote: ↑Sat 20 Jan 2024 10:27am No
It’s a simplification that one believes a coach can ‘control’ things
He can set expectations
He can implement a game plan
He can manage assistants
But ultimately performance and adherence is up to the player’s attitude and ability
This notion that players are disciples of a coach and they will be molded in their image is very naive
I still reckon Ball didn't enjoy his medallion all that much after the pain killers and cortisol wore off.
There was never er any chance of him going broke had he won the flag with St.Kilda. Roo has done ok for himself and he would probably like that medallion more.
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Re: Will Keeler be the real deal??
I guess Ross set the rules for the environment and Ball told him to stick it in his trumpet. Fortius Quo Fidelius.
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Re: Will Keeler be the real deal??
I think we want to believe in a coaches impact
1/ because we want to believe in
2/ we want someone to blame if things go wrong
3/ and if they are replaced we can believe again!
Question
Do you think Ross is a good coach?
1/ because we want to believe in
2/ we want someone to blame if things go wrong
3/ and if they are replaced we can believe again!
Question
Do you think Ross is a good coach?
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Re: Will Keeler be the real deal??
Or because...
1/ they are a clear leadership role
2/ they at the very least influence the environment
3/ some clubs have consistent and sustained results and other don't.
Disclaimer: posts are my views and shouldn't be taken as fact, even if I am in fact right.
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Re: Will Keeler be the real deal??
Do you think any other coach could have improved the list he lost 2 grand finals with, or was all because Ball and Armo didn't play?
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Re: Will Keeler be the real deal??
And Lovett not playing, he plays in 2010 and we are premiers.
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Re: Will Keeler be the real deal??
I agree with BM.
Lovett is the perfect example of player and attitude.
All Lyon had to do was convince him to turn a new page, now that he'd come into a new environment ... but he couldn't.
Alan Jackovich is probably another good example ... he could have been anything - even thought of alongside Lockett, Dunstall.
He wasted his unbelievable talent.
His brother. Glen, was dedicated, hard-working, and got the most out of himself. The complete opposite of Alan, who was even more talented.
Steele, Sinclair, Wilkie ... they'd be champs under any coach. All credit to them. Nas, Owens, Windhager have great leaders and role models playing alongside them, regardless of coach.
Lovett is the perfect example of player and attitude.
All Lyon had to do was convince him to turn a new page, now that he'd come into a new environment ... but he couldn't.
Alan Jackovich is probably another good example ... he could have been anything - even thought of alongside Lockett, Dunstall.
He wasted his unbelievable talent.
His brother. Glen, was dedicated, hard-working, and got the most out of himself. The complete opposite of Alan, who was even more talented.
Steele, Sinclair, Wilkie ... they'd be champs under any coach. All credit to them. Nas, Owens, Windhager have great leaders and role models playing alongside them, regardless of coach.
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Re: Will Keeler be the real deal??
There are players who would get 1% improvement out of a good coach, and there are players who would get 50% improvement out of a good coach.
Some players might get a 1-10% reduction depending on the coaching style.
The numbers game that footy is, if you can get a net improvement from your team the coach is doing well.
Some players might get a 1-10% reduction depending on the coaching style.
The numbers game that footy is, if you can get a net improvement from your team the coach is doing well.
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Re: Will Keeler be the real deal??
In fairness to Lyon… we only had him for like 6 weeks before he was sacked.
I don’t know how much that was/is on him.
Would be interested to see what others think but I always had the impression that the players led sacking on that one rather than the admin
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Re: Will Keeler be the real deal??
But the point is Lovett only has himself to blame. It's all on him.
Tremendous ability gone to waste.
At least Essendon managed to get something out of him - enough to make us interested in him.
Tremendous ability gone to waste.
At least Essendon managed to get something out of him - enough to make us interested in him.
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Re: Will Keeler be the real deal??
The creep was a serial offender...a woman basher. Leopards never change their spots. The druggies are still laughing at us. We were sold a pup.
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Re: Will Keeler be the real deal??
No question to any of that.saynta wrote: ↑Sun 21 Jan 2024 2:02pmThe creep was a serial offender...a woman basher. Leopards never change their spots. The druggies are still laughing at us. We were sold a pup.
What I’m wondering though… from what I remember at the time, it happened at a house party and it was a friend of a player… Gram maybe?
Given premiership prospects and the cost to get him… I always thought that perhaps the club might have suspended him and brought him back late in the season but instead he was swiftly sacked.
Not saying that was wrong… but I’ve always wondered if the players made a stand to sack him or else. Doesn’t matter but I’ve always wondered if that was the case
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Re: Will Keeler be the real deal??
I remember that the players were really pissed off with him.
So you could be right.
So you could be right.
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Re: Will Keeler be the real deal??
For every Lovett that got a start there are 50 who didn't but managed to play football without the scrutiny that comes with AFL football.
My dad grew up in the days VFL clubs were local clubs and some very violent and predatory men, who became legends of the game would probably, would be in jail. The could just get away with it.
Dare I say, there are few stories from Moorabbin in the 60's and 70's that curl your toes.
I won't be repeating them but I have four older sisters who could testify to the chauvinism and sexuality predation within the club
How Lyon could be responsible for Lovett is laughable. Lovett wasnt the only bloke in that squad constantly pushing boundaries.
My dad grew up in the days VFL clubs were local clubs and some very violent and predatory men, who became legends of the game would probably, would be in jail. The could just get away with it.
Dare I say, there are few stories from Moorabbin in the 60's and 70's that curl your toes.
I won't be repeating them but I have four older sisters who could testify to the chauvinism and sexuality predation within the club
How Lyon could be responsible for Lovett is laughable. Lovett wasnt the only bloke in that squad constantly pushing boundaries.