We’re just making opposition look better than they are

[Vortex]

I fear the style in which we lost that game against the Hawks has once again exposed the vulnerabilities of our list, the crack could also get much wider and the demons of our second half of 2022 could get into the heads of the players and allow opposition clubs to exploit our clear weakness which is to wave the white flag when a team gets a run-on against us.

The pressure now comes for Lyon in the second half.

We've lost 2 last quarters in the last seven weeks. We outscored Collingwood and drew with Port in the last. Adelaide outscored us by 5 points in the last and Hawthorn exposed a weakness. Sure

Yeah and we beat the Pies by one point in the 1966 GF, if you keep regurgitating history lessons I might have find a nic name for you that sounds like "rear vision mirror".

While history lessons are important, I'm more interested in your irrational fears.
Hawthorn is not the boogey man. We don't need to know how to beat them atm, they won't be playing finals for a while. They just crashed our 2 week break but we needed it.

Thanks for your rationale, it makes complete sense, almost as much sense as an "exploration year". What is an "exploration year" btw?

And how does an "exploration year" differ to the previous 150 years? Were they all "exploration years" too?

Fifth at the bye. Surely you'd have taken that before the season started?

Absolutely, just not convinced we can avoid history repeating and not being able to go on with it in the second half. You must admit we look incredibly shaky?

We'll find out which players were only playing well in the first 4 to 6 weeks as a result of the sugar hit that came from Lyon phenomenon or weather those fringe players can deliver consistently.

I have long held the belief players who need to find artificial motivation to sustain high performance generally don't last long in the game, Dunstans purple patch in his last year with us as an example, he used anger as his motivation but clearly it was unsustainable.

And so as such we will see how many of the players who surprised us in the first month such as Byrnes who were playing for their careers will be able to deliver high performance consistently, after all these types of players now have no excuse with regards to superior coaching.

Lyon now truly has an acid test to deliver on his legend which is get the best out of players and improve them and work his legendary "system".

A fascinating half coming up in our "exploration" year.

[samuraisaint]

The club needs to come out with an attacking mindset against Sydney.
We nearly beat them up there two years ago, failing only because we didn't take our chances.
They have won their past two games but were very unconvincing in both of them.

The loss against Hawthorn will surely act as a circuit breaker - remember we are not even half way through the season yet - 12 matches to go.
A win in Sydney against the Swans for the first time since RL coached us the last time would be evidence that we have improved. It is only five days away now.

Over the past ten or twelve years we have actually got the Swans' seasons going, so we need to beware. Parker and Mills won't play, and neither will the McCartins. Our best players the last time we played them were Hannebery and Long, so we won't have them this time. Added to that, we have a long injury list still, but that won't change this year. This also means that history shouldn't matter.

[lewdogs]

I fear the style in which we lost that game against the Hawks has once again exposed the vulnerabilities of our list, the crack could also get much wider and the demons of our second half of 2022 could get into the heads of the players and allow opposition clubs to exploit our clear weakness which is to wave the white flag when a team gets a run-on against us.

The pressure now comes for Lyon in the second half.

We've lost 2 last quarters in the last seven weeks. We outscored Collingwood and drew with Port in the last. Adelaide outscored us by 5 points in the last and Hawthorn exposed a weakness. Sure

Yeah and we beat the Pies by one point in the 1966 GF, if you keep regurgitating history lessons I might have find a nic name for you that sounds like "rear vision mirror".

While history lessons are important, I'm more interested in your irrational fears.
Hawthorn is not the boogey man. We don't need to know how to beat them atm, they won't be playing finals for a while. They just crashed our 2 week break but we needed it.

Thanks for your rationale, it makes complete sense, almost as much sense as an "exploration year". What is an "exploration year" btw?

And how does an "exploration year" differ to the previous 150 years? Were they all "exploration years" too?

Fifth at the bye. Surely you'd have taken that before the season started?

Absolutely, just not convinced we can avoid history repeating and not being able to go on with it in the second half. You must admit we look incredibly shaky?

We'll find out which players were only playing well in the first 4 to 6 weeks as a result of the sugar hit that came from Lyon phenomenon or weather those fringe players can deliver consistently.

I have long held the belief players who need to find artificial motivation to sustain high performance generally don't last long in the game, Dunstans purple patch in his last year with us as an example, he used anger as his motivation but clearly it was unsustainable.

And so as such we will see how many of the players who surprised us in the first month such as Byrnes who were playing for their careers will be able to deliver high performance consistently, after all these types of players now have no excuse with regards to superior coaching.

Lyon now truly has an acid test to deliver on his legend which is get the best out of players and improve them and work his legendary "system".

A fascinating half coming up in our "exploration" year.

You really seem worked up about the exploratory year quote. I reckon Lyon's media stuff is a lot of smoke and mirrors. Every year for every club is an exploratory year, I really wouldn't get so worked up about it it's a season just like any other.

In terms of our form, yes it's bad but that's footy. I know a lot of our supporters are burnt by our fade outs over the last few years but I think the bye has come at a good time for us and hopefully some players can get form back. Steele isn't a dud, he's a two time all Australian playing poorly for whatever reason. We need our best guys getting back to their best, that's how we'll get our form back. We are well in the hunt for finals.

[BadRossco]

It’s great to be fifth at the bye game lewdogs problem is there is arguably ten or eleven better sides below us so could be very different by the end of the season.

[CQ SAINT]

I fear the style in which we lost that game against the Hawks has once again exposed the vulnerabilities of our list, the crack could also get much wider and the demons of our second half of 2022 could get into the heads of the players and allow opposition clubs to exploit our clear weakness which is to wave the white flag when a team gets a run-on against us.

The pressure now comes for Lyon in the second half.

We've lost 2 last quarters in the last seven weeks. We outscored Collingwood and drew with Port in the last. Adelaide outscored us by 5 points in the last and Hawthorn exposed a weakness. Sure

Yeah and we beat the Pies by one point in the 1966 GF, if you keep regurgitating history lessons I might have find a nic name for you that sounds like "rear vision mirror".

While history lessons are important, I'm more interested in your irrational fears.
Hawthorn is not the boogey man. We don't need to know how to beat them atm, they won't be playing finals for a while. They just crashed our 2 week break but we needed it.

Thanks for your rationale, it makes complete sense, almost as much sense as an "exploration year". What is an "exploration year" btw?

And how does an "exploration year" differ to the previous 150 years? Were they all "exploration years" too?

Fifth at the bye. Surely you'd have taken that before the season started?

There are a number of posters here who have lost their desire for hope. They want and believe in the Bulldogs fairy tale. They believe things just click to both conspire against us and also raise us up, in a moment like a poker machine. We love em. The make the bonds stronger in the end and we know they ain't going nowhere!

[Killa]

Symptomatic of these “discussions” is Essendon and their “recovery” from basket case which the media is trumpeting

On the eve of them playing North Melbourne and last week playing West Coast (Essendon playing both of these bottom 2 Clubs twice in 2023)

Apart from the bottom 2, the competition is most even so anyone can beat anyone on their day (including the impact of unavailable players week to week)

The Draw, as always, will play its part (look at the St Kilda draw last season)

As will injuries (again, look at St Kilda last season)

The game against Sydney is vital because they are below us and out of the 8

We need to consolidate this position - and then go from there

It is a matter of who beats who (and where)

The competition is cut throat

[Yorkeys]

It’s great to be fifth at the bye game lewdogs problem is there is arguably ten or eleven better sides below us so could be very different by the end of the season.

How many racehorses lead into the straight but don't go on to win. A lot. Analogy.

[lewdogs]

It’s great to be fifth at the bye game lewdogs problem is there is arguably ten or eleven better sides below us so could be very different by the end of the season.

That may or may not be the case but right now they'd all trade places with us. Freo are in great form but would love to be where we are.

The rest of the season hasn't been played yet. We may as well treat it as the unknown that it is, you may be saving some unnecessary grey hairs.

[Scollop]

If you compare Port's performance today against the Hawks to our side's effort last week vs Hawks, we are miles away from being a genuine quality side.

Against Port at our home ground we looked very ordinary after quarter time, quite disappointing in fact, were woeful against North and pathetic against the Hawks. No wonder Adelaide thumped us over there and it was fortunate we didn't play Port in Adelaide too, as we would have been thrashed by them also.

My point exactly. 12 years of football wilderness and not only are we not a contender, we’re barely even a top 8 team. We’re now in rebuild no. 3 and it’s only going to get harder with the comp expanding to 19 teams.

We’ve tried being an AFL golden child and that has failed miserably. The club needs to start breaking a few eggs.

I agree that we are into rebuild number 3.

All three have been handled poorly...and a little differently, but the main problem each time has been the senior coach overestimating where the list was at

That's why the list management and recruitment needs a competent board and footy department to STOP coaches recruiting mature players before the list is ready to challenge

I don't think Hill, Jones, Sebby and Crouch are going to be with us when we are a top 4 team again. We need to elevate some of our young guys and do it in 2024 so they become part of the new leadership

Who is going to oversee whether Ross Lyon makes the same mistakes that Richo and Ratten made?

The rot set in when we were in the middle of rebuild 2 when Richo and Lethlean decided to bring in Hannebery. That then created further pressure and they (Lethlean and the board) decided to take short cuts to success with rebuild number 3, and just went crazy with 8-10 ready made players in 2019/2020.

Ratten was set up for failure and he agreed to take the risk with Chipper Frawley and McKernan etc...

Hopefully we Do Not repeat the same mistakes again. Hopefully we create a high performance culture and we put in place good development coaches and don't try and take short cuts again

[Sanctorum]

The rot set in when we were in the middle of rebuild 2 when Richo and Lethlean decided to bring in Hannebery. That then created further pressure and they (Lethlean and the board) decided to take short cuts to success with rebuild number 3, and just went crazy with 8-10 ready made players in 2019/2020.

I beg to differ Scollop on your assertion that Hannebery was recruited on the assumption that St Kilda had a list capable of contending with the big boys in the comp.

To the contrary, my recollection is that at the time the club believed bringing Hannebery in would give the team some much needed elite leadership, and perhaps assist to bring a few other big names across because if you look at the 2019 list there was not a single A grade player on the list.

On a side note, there are only 16 players still on the list that were there in 2019!

[SydneySainter]

The rot set in when we were in the middle of rebuild 2 when Richo and Lethlean decided to bring in Hannebery. That then created further pressure and they (Lethlean and the board) decided to take short cuts to success with rebuild number 3, and just went crazy with 8-10 ready made players in 2019/2020.

I beg to differ Scollop on your assertion that Hannebery was recruited on the assumption that St Kilda had a list capable of contending with the big boys in the comp.

To the contrary, my recollection is that at the time the club believed bringing Hannebery in would give the team some much needed elite leadership, and perhaps assist to bring a few other big names across because if you look at the 2019 list there was not a single A grade player on the list.

On a side note, there are only 16 players still on the list that were there in 2019!

Good posts by both.

While I agree Sanctorum’s assessment of why Hanners was recruited (although I think leadership was a sales pitch to the fans - I don’t they actually really expected him to be much of an on or off-field leader), I also agree with Scollop in that the Hanners deal was where the rot started.

After Hanners, it was followed by Hill, Jones, Crouch and Ryder. These weren’t cheap trades. They cost significant picks.

These players have been serviceable, no doubt. But we’ve already seen their best footy and those that are left won’t get any better.

While it has made us more competitive, it still hasn’t been enough to push us into finals contention and it has arguably only stifled our future further.

[Otiman]

Hill was the only trade we payed overs for. Pick #10 and Acres. Acres on his own probably only worth a 3rd rounder.

Hannebery was for pick #39 and an exchange of pick #28 for future pick #28.

Ryder and Howard for Pick #18.

We effectively traded Jones for Bruce.

Crouch was a free agent.

[Scollop]

The rot set in when we were in the middle of rebuild 2 when Richo and Lethlean decided to bring in Hannebery. That then created further pressure and they (Lethlean and the board) decided to take short cuts to success with rebuild number 3, and just went crazy with 8-10 ready made players in 2019/2020.

I beg to differ Scollop on your assertion that Hannebery was recruited on the assumption that St Kilda had a list capable of contending with the big boys in the comp.

To the contrary, my recollection is that at the time the club believed bringing Hannebery in would give the team some much needed elite leadership, and perhaps assist to bring a few other big names across because if you look at the 2019 list there was not a single A grade player on the list.

On a side note, there are only 16 players still on the list that were there in 2019!

Have another read of my original post. That's not what I said.

I probably said too much, so sorry to confuse you. My main gripe with regard to our list and our footy department is that by the time Lethlean resigns it'll be too late for St Kilda to undo all his fuckups

[SydneySainter]

Hill was the only trade we payed overs for. Pick #10 and Acres. Acres on his own probably only worth a 3rd rounder.

Hannebery was for pick #39 and an exchange of pick #28 for future pick #28.

Ryder and Howard for Pick #18.

We effectively traded Jones for Bruce.

Crouch was a free agent.

Pick 18 was overs. Howard is a liability in defence and will unlikely improve. Ryder was very good, but he was in his twilight when we got him.

A fully fit Jones would have been a win, but he’s been a soft-tissue injury nightmare since we got him.

Point taken re: Crouch.

[Otiman]

Who's our full back if we didn't get Howard?

Ryder's influence is not to be discounted, and don't forget he won a final off his own boot.

Pick 18 is fair.

[Scollop]

After Hanners, it was followed by Hill, Jones, Crouch
...........

These players have been serviceable, no doubt. But we’ve already seen their best footy and those that are left won’t get any better.

While it has made us more competitive, it still hasn’t been enough to push us into finals contention and it has arguably only stifled our future further.

+1

I'd add Higgins to that lot. We already had Gresh, Butler and Billings. Snags was just an upgrade on Lonie and I think we still had Dean Kent on the list when Snags was recruited

[samuraisaint]

North nearly drew with Essendon tonight.
Our 30 point win against them doesn't look as bad anymore.

[Teflon]

this thread makes me want to end it all

At least wait until October, you could miss our second flag. I know Firey has already booked flights and accommodation.

It’s either that or your next upbeat post after the fact telling us all how shyte we are??
See Coopers not delisted yet…you must be bleeding…

Why is it that I can't seem to remember who this Cooper fella is you keep spruicking, has he played in any of our more recent memorable wins?

He’s in the 22 often under our magic dust sprinkling coach
Amazed you’re not up with that but suppose it doesn’t suit the narrative?

[Teflon]

The rot set in when we were in the middle of rebuild 2 when Richo and Lethlean decided to bring in Hannebery. That then created further pressure and they (Lethlean and the board) decided to take short cuts to success with rebuild number 3, and just went crazy with 8-10 ready made players in 2019/2020.

I beg to differ Scollop on your assertion that Hannebery was recruited on the assumption that St Kilda had a list capable of contending with the big boys in the comp.

To the contrary, my recollection is that at the time the club believed bringing Hannebery in would give the team some much needed elite leadership, and perhaps assist to bring a few other big names across because if you look at the 2019 list there was not a single A grade player on the list.

On a side note, there are only 16 players still on the list that were there in 2019!

Good posts by both.

While I agree Sanctorum’s assessment of why Hanners was recruited (although I think leadership was a sales pitch to the fans - I don’t they actually really expected him to be much of an on or off-field leader), I also agree with Scollop in that the Hanners deal was where the rot started.

After Hanners, it was followed by Hill, Jones, Crouch and Ryder. These weren’t cheap trades. They cost significant picks.

These players have been serviceable, no doubt. But we’ve already seen their best footy and those that are left won’t get any better.

While it has made us more competitive, it still hasn’t been enough to push us into finals contention and it has arguably only stifled our future further.

Good post
It’s why IF Lyon goes down the same top up path we are screwed
He will fail
At our core issue is lack of A grade talent - especially midfielders
We are seeing other side’s resurgence through youth
Gotta get picks and higher end better and NOT f k up selection
It’s just a travesty what screwing up the McCartin no 1 draft pick did to us long term ..
I hope this Board simply tell Lyon - finals are nice but not the measure ….develop talent and a side that can compete in 2 years is your measure

[B.M]

Lyon ain’t and won’t rebuild- he’s here for 4 years

Get used to it

He coaches for the present - the thing that means the most to him

His record and his reputation

He doesn’t coach for draft picks - he coaches for wins

[Teflon]

Lyon ain’t and won’t rebuild- he’s here for 4 years

Get used to it

He coaches for the present - the thing that means the most to him

His record and his reputation

He doesn’t coach for draft picks - he coaches for wins

Ok
He’s playing loads kids tho and you’re still treating him like 2009 Lyon
You’ve stamped his papers cause in your world once you’re in a box …you’re in a box!

[Killa]

Look at the structure of our List and why we went to the State Leagues, where only Wilkie remains

Our List is much improved

But the history says we do not have experienced, class players around whom to build a side

Hence Hannebery and Hill and Ryder and Crouch because we just did not have this caliber of class experience

Those recruitments all benefited St Kilda

There are still structural issues but we are now in a position to invest in the potential ruck and key position for players we see at Sandringham

In the lead up to this we filled a gap FOR ONE YEAR with Frawley and McKernan - as insurance because we had no insurance

At full strength, so adding the likes of Coffield, Billings et al, we have a very reasonable side

The measure of how far we can go will be injuries, maintaining and improvement in form and particularly from the developing players starting with King, Wanganeen-Milera, Owens and Windhager who are all in the early stages of their careers

We are not badly positioned

And we will continue to build - not with Number 1 Picks but by First Round Picks and selectively getting our share elsewhere

[saynta]

Lyon ain’t and won’t rebuild- he’s here for 4 years

Get used to it

He coaches for the present - the thing that means the most to him

His record and his reputation

He doesn’t coach for draft picks - he coaches for wins

Ok
He’s playing loads kids tho and you’re still treating him like 2009 Lyon
You’ve stamped his papers cause in your world once you’re in a box …you’re in a box!

RTB has played "loads of kids" because he had no choice. There was no one else fit enough to get on the park.

Necessity is the mother of invention, and RTB has invented nothing.

I for one am hoping that he has learnt from his past failings, but that's not looking good 11 weeks in.

[Killa]

It is interesting that Lyon is reported as saying that viewing from the outside he was of the opinion that injuries to key players saw St Kilda languish across the second half of 2022 and ultimately lose confidence

This is also my assessment

In 2023 we went into the season with injuries and despite the injury list we have we have welcomed some key players back, being King I would offer

Our injury list is what it is, missing 3 Top 10 Draft Picks, so class

On another matter, Howard is 199cm

He is supported in defence by Battle at 193cm and Wilkie at 191cm

Given 6x6x6, and the delivery into the forward 50 when those delivering are given space the life of a defender is fraught

You rely on pressure on the ball deliverer

At 199cm, and given sides have the height and size they have in their forward lines, absent Howard who do we have?

What we do need is support for Howard and Marshall - and that Caminiti is support for King

Plus an attacking midfielder who can impact on the scoreboard (so Owens?)

[samuraisaint]

The rot set in when we were in the middle of rebuild 2 when Richo and Lethlean decided to bring in Hannebery. That then created further pressure and they (Lethlean and the board) decided to take short cuts to success with rebuild number 3, and just went crazy with 8-10 ready made players in 2019/2020.

I beg to differ Scollop on your assertion that Hannebery was recruited on the assumption that St Kilda had a list capable of contending with the big boys in the comp.

To the contrary, my recollection is that at the time the club believed bringing Hannebery in would give the team some much needed elite leadership, and perhaps assist to bring a few other big names across because if you look at the 2019 list there was not a single A grade player on the list.

On a side note, there are only 16 players still on the list that were there in 2019!

And of those 16, there are at least 3 players (maybe more) who haven't played seniors at all this year. Interesting indeed, isn't it?