Role players in 2023

[skeptic]

Am interested to get people’s thoughts on this.

I get it if you’re a lockdown defender for a small forward with the view of squeezing then shut with little touches and no goals.
It also makes sense as a key defender that’s more about spoiling and getting to contests, not necessarily taking grabs or moving up the ground.

Beyond that… I don’t think there’s a role for a player in modern footy whose major contribution is defensive efforts.

The Billy Longer ruckman, just competitive in the middle, then block for the midfielders, pressure acts etc
Complete waste of a spot. Need to be able to present a target for players coming out of defensive:going forward, need to be able to drop back into defence and either take grabs or spoil.

A midfielder that takes up a spot, plays 90% on ground and gets 12 touches whilst hoping to keep a prolific opposition mid to just 20-25 touches… waste of freaking time.
Part of the package needs to be that you get 17+ possessions yourself and hurt the opposition the other way.

One notes that the criticism of Seb Ross completely dried up in 2022… do you know what also vanished from his game? The defensive role that saw him not get a possession or even be sighted near the contest for a 1/4 and a half and have 15-17 touches a match.
Also gone was the sitting on the opposite wing to the play and ‘holding his position’ nonsense that so often was used in his defence.
In 2022, Seb maintained the same level of defensive pressure, accountability and leadership whilst getting more and more footy and using it in a more damaging way consistently.

Also out IMO is the pressure small forward whose output is more often than not measured by defensive pressure and work rate rather than goals.
If you’re a small forward in the team… and yes it’s the hardest position in the modern… your primary job is to either kick goals or directly set them up.

For a decade now we’ve seen a huge investment in defensive forwards that don’t do this…
Newnes, Weller, Lonie, Kent… pbly others I can’t remember.

Modern times we have Butler… his best season was 2020, the year he played as a forward pocket that regularly hit the scoreboard.
In 2022, I’ve read praise here with some consistency that he is the hardest working forward pocket we’ve had with sometime. Well IMO, he’s expected to do that stuff anyway but without more consistently hitting the board it counts for very little.

Role player has become this weird code word for player that we want to keep playing because we like them/the effort but they’re really not effective.

For me personally… this is my biggest anxiety with RTB. In his last run with us, role players were a key feature in his game plan because he was very big on having guys in the team that knew where to stand/run etc
Whilst I get that… IMO he really overvalued the impact of that because more often than not, it was his champions and match winners that did the things that won us games. Not to say that there weren’t good efforts here and there…

But the McQualters, Eddys, Dempsters (of his time not after), Gardiners (post 09) didn’t do the job and IMO hindered us longer term because they prevented development for the Armitages/Steven/Lynch/McEvoys etc

Now that’s an 09-10 lens I’m looking through and I don’t want to critics RTB for something he hasn’t done yet… but hope against hope that we don’t see this on 2023.

[Vortex]

One of the greatest criticisms of Ross during his tenure as coach of Freo was his emphasis on fitness and conditioning resulting in player burnout and fatigue which led to injury, hence his over reliance on "role" players. Interestingly our injury rate this off season his on the verge of becoming a concern of Ross's coaching style.

My view is a coach has to be forced into "role" players being deployed if you are short on talent and fortunately this is where Ross's coaching style is perceived as getting the highly touted "best" out of a list. This is what we are talking about when we are thinking about Ross's strengths. And this is where my cynicism, (anxiety if you like) kicks in; you can only squeeze so much out of a poor list, throw in a few injuries with a list that is already very light-on for backup and all of a sudden it doesn't matter who the coach is.

Clearly I haven't been intoxicated so much by Ross 3.0 returning, I love the guy and how he goes about it but I think his greatest challenge is well outside of his control as it is for all coaches, and that is the clubs ability to recruit the critical mass of talent, clearly the club is hoping the current list of kids will turn into flag types but the reality is "hope" is all they have, such a long way to go to find out who makes the grade, and hopefully it's the right critical mass of stars coming of age all roughly around the same time. I'd feel a whole lot more confident if the club came out and admitted it's problem over the past 150 years for having the reputation for making the messiah the scapegoat when rough waters approach, I would give ross a 7-10 year contract and tell the coteries to go suck eggs and put certain phone numbers on the banned list. That wont happen, as soon as the wins aren't coming Ross will be scapegoated, the next performance review of Ross will be held by ole Foxy and Ryan over in Monaco on the yacht.

Hopefully the injury to our forwards isn't changing the game plan, hopefully we don't go down the path of an over reliance on role players and ride out the storm by adopting the approach that it doesn't matter how many injuries we get, our game plan stays the same until we can procure the right talent for the game plan.

It will be hard though to not fall back into that defensive mindset though because hell knows the whole football world will hold Rossy to account on his promise to be more attacking but he will be under immense pressure to win games, or not lose games by big margins as well as under immense pressure to get the team into finals this year.

[cwrcyn]

I think in Ross's previous stint, the role players were played because they had the endurance and discipline to carry out his instructions. There were players who were more talented, but couldn't measure up to the running and discipline demands.

[Vortex]

I think in Ross's previous stint, the role players were played because they had the endurance and discipline to carry out his instructions. There were players who were more talented, but couldn't measure up to the running and discipline demands.

If they didn't measure up did they still get a game? who specifically?

We know who the role players were during RLs last stint with us, can you name them for Freo, specifically in his final 4 years at their club?

[shanegrambeau]

Difference between;

a) player of limited general talent at AFL level, but has one really good thing - role player. (Steve Baker, Clint Jones, the fella that followed RTB to Freo)

b) a player of average or above all round talent at AFL level, but thanks to team dynamics is told to do (x,y,z) - plays a role (Jason Blake, Josh Battle, Mason Wood)

[D.B.Cooper]

Difference between;

a) player of limited general talent at AFL level, but has one really good thing - role player. (Steve Baker, Clint Jones, the fella that followed RTB to Freo)

b) a player of average or above all round talent at AFL level, but thanks to team dynamics is told to do (x,y,z) - plays a role (Jason Blake, Josh Battle, Mason Wood)

I see where you are coming from Shane but cannot agree.

Jones 149 AFL games - top 5 in a B&F
Baker 203 AFL + B&F
Dawson 149 AFL game and twice player of the finals series for his club

These 3 would have walked into any AFL team during their time at the Saints.
They played (mainly defensive) roles at St Kilda but may well have had a lot more strings to their bow if in a lower side at the time.

I'd call a "limited role player" a Robert Eddy (30 matches) who a appeared to be a defensive forward who barely got the ball.

[wally]

I think a lot of this is dependant on the cattle available at your disposal. If you have a team full of stars you can play how you want and dictate terms, we have never had that even at our best we’re short some a & b graders some role players become a vital part of the team with a job to do.

[B.M]

Aren’t all players role player

Nick Riewoldt play a role!

There are some roles more important than others, yes, but everyone has a role to play

[skeptic]

Aren’t all players role player

Nick Riewoldt play a role!

There are some roles more important than others, yes, but everyone has a role to play

I think the context was pretty clear

Do you think Riewoldt was a forward that just offered defensive pressure?

[B.M]

Reiwoldt’s role was to be the main target in attack

[Vortex]

Role players are players with skill limitations but have courage and determination as their main strengths and are happy to sacrifice their game for the team.

[Saintmike65]

Role players are players with skill limitations but have courage and determination as their main strengths and are happy to sacrifice their game for the team.

Your description of a role player is perfect…Baker, Dawson & Clint Jones were all rightly identified by the boss as players with limited skill set but high concentration & team first mentality.
I doubt whether Ross will have many role players this season, if any but if he does, Stocker maybe a good fit as a run with type!

[skeptic]

Reiwoldt’s role was to be the main target in attack

So in context…

Do you think Nick Riewoldt belongs in this conversation or have you just latched onto a particular point about exact phrasing and are off on a complete tangent

[Vortex]

Role players are players with skill limitations but have courage and determination as their main strengths and are happy to sacrifice their game for the team.

Your description of a role player is perfect…Baker, Dawson & Clint Jones were all rightly identified by the boss as players with limited skill set but high concentration & team first mentality.
I doubt whether Ross will have many role players this season, if any but if he does, Stocker maybe a good fit as a run with type!

Stevie had a very important skill that flag teams need at least some of and that is a player who is a little bit crazy and takes great delight in physically intimidating and hurting the opposition. Rossy was psycho as a player too so he loves the Stevie types. Stevie was terribly underrated outside the club and just made it to GF1 in 2010 but was cooked the following week. Was my favourite player in that team.

Can Stocker become Stevie but with elite L&R foot skills, time will tell, he's claiming to love the physicality so let's see if talk is cheap.

[skeptic]

Role players are players with skill limitations but have courage and determination as their main strengths and are happy to sacrifice their game for the team.

Your description of a role player is perfect…Baker, Dawson & Clint Jones were all rightly identified by the boss as players with limited skill set but high concentration & team first mentality.
I doubt whether Ross will have many role players this season, if any but if he does, Stocker maybe a good fit as a run with type!

Stevie had a very important skill that flag teams need at least some of and that is a player who is a little bit crazy and takes great delight in physically intimidating and hurting the opposition. Rossy was psycho as a player too so he loves the Stevie types. Stevie was terribly underrated outside the club and just made it to GF1 in 2010 but was cooked the following week. Was my favourite player in that team.

Mine too. Also a real good club man I thought. Had a good balance between being a fun character at the club to being quite a hard worker too

[B.M]

No

I think the term role player is incorrectly used

Every player is a role player

Fringe player - or even outlining their role would be more accurate

[skeptic]

No

I think the term role player is incorrectly used

Every player is a role player

Fringe player - or even outlining their role would be more accurate

I outlined the term in the context of ruck, defender, mid and forward. Maybe read it again as the term was used as a descriptor rather than a title.

The existential reflection seems a bit over the top IMO

[shanegrambeau]

I’m pretty sure it was this interview.
Stevie Baker tells Mike, he is a role player , in so many words. He tells of his talents being wide (he was not a stopper, he was a mid, a runner etc., ) but he says he had a hard conversation with one of his coaches, and they told him in black and white , he ain’t good enough to do anything but ‘do that thing’, and the inference is clearly, to be a pest, a major major pest, whilst doing the menial nuts and bolts jobs on the back line. (linker) I admit that I didn’t see Bakes in the years up to ‘09.

[saynta]

I’m pretty sure it was this interview.
Stevie Baker tells Mike, he is a role player , in so many words. He tells of his talents being wide (he was not a stopper, he was a mid, a runner etc., ) but he says he had a hard conversation with one of his coaches, and they told him in black and white , he ain’t good enough to do anything but ‘do that thing’, and the inference is clearly, to be a pest, a major major pest, whilst doing the menial nuts and bolts jobs on the back line. (linker) I admit that I didn’t see Bakes in the years up to ‘09.

Thanks mate, worth watching.

Very enjoyable

[Impatient Sainter]

Its a simple equation, all teams need to have their best players available for the majority of the year to be competitive. Coaching is irrevelant if you have got your best 8-10 players sitting in the stands. It then becomes a period of developing the younger players and limiting the damage.

Hopefully what RTB & his coaching & fitness team bring is an ability to get their best team on the park most weeks. Its then I am sure we will see the benefits of the new game plan.

[nostalgicsaint]

The idea that RTB pushes the list extremely hard from a fitness point of view which leads to a higher injury rate but gets the best out of the side is an interesting one.

1) does this not work well for a list which supposedly lacks stars but has good depth like ours?

2) pretty sure we had a great injury run in 2009