Forward Plan

[Teflon]

Just watching Cats whoever is in charge of their forwards has it right
Even commentary just noted
Hawkins leads up at the ball
Cameron fills space behind
They never lead to the same area
Compare that to our shambolic , bombing game plan
We desperately need to sack Lade (forwards coach) and McGlynn (midfield)
We won’t sack Brett cause the Board has shafted us
But our forward structure AND the transition of ball into it badly needs work
Why not play Sinclsir in the guts now? He’s our best player by a margin and adds the skills by foot into forward 50 we desperately need
Play him and Clarke through
But for gods sake get someone in NOW to rejig the forward line set up

[bangaulegend]

Just watching Cats whoever is in charge of their forwards has it right
Even commentary just noted
Hawkins leads up at the ball
Cameron fills space behind
They never lead to the same area
Compare that to our shambolic , bombing game plan
We desperately need to sack Lade (forwards coach) and McGlynn (midfield)
We won’t sack Brett cause the Board has shafted us
But our forward structure AND the transition of ball into it badly needs work
Why not play Sinclsir in the guts now? He’s our best player by a margin and adds the skills by foot into forward 50 we desperately need
Play him and Clarke through
But for gods sake get someone in NOW to rejig the forward line set up

Don't tease me like that Teflon I clicked on the post hoping we actually had one

[Teflon]

We saw something work when we tried King up higher against Blues
We became less predictable
We need to get a structured plan that allows us to mix that with a lead up open space forward line instead of congestion all forwards at top of square surrounded by 300 opponents looking for miracle overhead goals

[happy feet]

King playing higher, Paddy in the goal square = nightmare for defence

[SunnyErnie]

King should always be used as a decoy. Get him to lead up at the ball carrier so he clears space and then pass the ball to someone else closer to goal

[happy feet]

King should always be used as a decoy. Get him to lead up at the ball carrier so he clears space and then pass the ball to someone else closer to goal

I thought you said you had had enough and were leaving?

[Vortex]

You need forwards who are willing to run, once you find forwards who can run then they can find this space you speak of.

Winx isn't a runner.

[samoht]

King seems to lack the instincts of a natural forward.
He tends to stand in one spot.

I'd rather we played him around the ground as a tall, marking utility or try him in the backline even.

[Vortex]

King seems to lack the instincts of a natural forward.
He prefers to stand in one spot.

I'd rather we played him around the ground as a tall, marking utility or try him in the backline even.

Yeah he seems all at sea in the forward line. Not a silly idea to trial him somewhere else on the ground because he's had a few years at FF and it's not working for him.

[terry smith rules]

It drives me bonkers

Friday night you had

Hannan who we made look like an AA HBF

Dale who we shut down for 10 minutes and then it seemed we went “that’s too hard”

Keath who could barely walk let alone run, and we never seemed to test

Khamis who was made to look like Jake Lever

And Richards who is a GOP, but we could not get a match up on

Absolutely appalling

An ordinary defence was given the easiest test of their year

[Vortex]

It drives me bonkers

Friday night you had

Hannan who we made look like an AA HBF

Dale who we shut down for 10 minutes and then it seemed we went “that’s too hard”

Keath who could barely walk let alone run, and we never seemed to test

Khamis who was made to look like Jake Lever

And Richards who is a GOP, but we could not get a match up on

Absolutely appalling

An ordinary defence was given the easiest test of their year

Leadership is zero in the forward line, who owns it, who is the player that stands up and try to get some energy going. What we have is King who shows leadership but it's the wrong kind, it's sooky outbursts, and turning your back on an opponent who has just won the ball from you in a contest and is just trotting the ball out of our F50 with the greatest of ease. His attitude is killing our spirit in the forward line.

[Yorkeys]

In the absence of meaningful comment from Club/Coach here's another thought bubble:
King has made the coaching panel (who are obviously not too bright and have not got a decent work ethic to start with) really intellectually lazy, they have assumed he is superman and does not have to have an integrated attack system to support him. Hence no system, no support; other clubs can't believe their luck and our stupidity.
The rest of the team get worn down by all their efforts coming to nothing on the scoreboard so we have hit this wall of frustration, like what's the point, the forwards will stuff it up and King will yet again almost take a mark, but not really. And there is no other forward worthy of the description. Maybe Sharman but he doesn't get a run at it and now is inexplicably a defender (genius move that one).
And these people are allowed to keep on keeping on. They can't see/admit they have got it all wrong but at the same time no one in the Club says, ok enough, you had your chance, we really need to kick goals not develop crack pot ideas. Have to stop indulging obvious delusion that current approach/set up will score enough.

[Impatient Sainter]

Our problem is our ball movement going into the F50, which has been terrible. Consequently all our forwards are all in poor form, we are averaging 60 points per game for the past 6 games. You dont win many games kicking those scores.

Opposition teams are filling the centre channels where Sinclair, Hill etc run and attack and we havent had any alternatives. Ratten and his group of coaches have one manner of effective ball movement and when that is shut down he has no answers.So although the forwards are stagnant, so is our ball movement. We are extremely poorly coached atm and Lethlean needs to have a look at who is pulling strings on bring in some fresh eyes and ideas at seasons end.

[spert]

King is a 200cm athlete with very good football skills and agile for his size, but he is not a natural KPP, doesn't play like one and and that's where we're going wrong. Better off just putting him on a HFF, and stop using him as a key target. Membrey, Marshall or even Sharman are more natural forwards and would probably work better at FF. Campbell into the ruck.

[WellardSaint]

King seems to find it easier taking marks when he's gone to the wing and presented as a target.
It's as if defenders triple-team him at FF and give him no room, but in the open, when he's moving, his oppo can misjudge his leap and timing.
If he's Rooey 2.0, make him do what Rooey did.
Run to wings, work his oppo over, and he can be the link.
He'll lose the jitters cos he won't be worried about 'oh I have to take this mark 50 out but then I gotta score'

On the wing etc he's gonna be 'mark it, look for a target n kick'
A bit less pressure

[shanegrambeau]

Bring back Kent?

Because may I ask fellow experts here,

Butler
and
Higgins


1) Can either of them play mid - and I mean as a real full-time mid?

2) As mids and potential mids, where would you rate them in this crop ranking Int wise

Crouch
Steele
Ross
Byrnes
Bytel
Jones
Windy
Hunter

[Vortex]

King is a 200cm athlete with very good football skills and agile for his size, but he is not a natural KPP, doesn't play like one and and that's where we're going wrong. Better off just putting him on a HFF, and stop using him as a key target. Membrey, Marshall or even Sharman are more natural forwards and would probably work better at FF. Campbell into the ruck.

Bang on, for too long now we've been making excuses as to why our forward line is possibly the worst it has been in the past 30 years. We've blamed the coach, the game plan, the midfielfers, and yet for some reason King attracts no criticism for why it's such a crap forward line. He's a number 4 pick and we make excuses for him but right now he is a big part of the problem. So I agree he's not a FF.

[Teflon]

I think Impatient and Yorkeys have nailed it
It’s clearly a combination of ball movement into 50 and absolutely no genuine forwards structure/game plan once we get it there
I’ve no doubt King is being told “make contest, bring ball to ground if you can’t mark it” etc and hence the constant bombing on his head
King, according to Lloyd who coached him, played all his footy as a junior as a FF/CHF he knows how to play there…he’s not been taught at AFL level a system that maximises his strengths- run n jump at the ball
Friday night Dogs worked him over, knocked him over, a ragged him…..where is the forward line game plan to ensure he has help???
Midway through a quarter - Membrey is in defence along with Sharman ….WTF??? Kings meant to take on 3 at once??
It’s batshyte dumb crazy stuff
If Ratten can’t be sacked (cause his matey mates have rushed to sign him) LADE (who is forwards coach) has to go and while you are there FFS take McGlyn with you and tell David Rath he’s a stats guy not a football coach - he shouldn’t have so much to say….but you get the feel Brett is out of his depth
King in any other well coached top 8 side would be used and supported accordingly
Only at Saints, where if he’s not Tony Lockett in year 3 he’s gone
It’s remarkable even after we give him dreadful service, rarely kick to his advantage…he’s no 1 AFL contested marks and on track to lift his goal out out again
King IS NOT the issue he’s a skinny kid who needs genuine direction from a coaching group with real footy nous
He isn’t getting that atm

[Wayne42]

I think Impatient and Yorkeys have nailed it
It’s clearly a combination of ball movement into 50 and absolutely no genuine forwards structure/game plan once we get it there
I’ve no doubt King is being told “make contest, bring ball to ground if you can’t mark it” etc and hence the constant bombing on his head
King, according to Lloyd who coached him, played all his footy as a junior as a FF/CHF he knows how to play there…he’s not been taught at AFL level a system that maximises his strengths- run n jump at the ball
Friday night Dogs worked him over, knocked him over, a ragged him…..where is the forward line game plan to ensure he has help???
Midway through a quarter - Membrey is in defence along with Sharman ….WTF??? Kings meant to take on 3 at once??
It’s batshyte dumb crazy stuff
If Ratten can’t be sacked (cause his matey mates have rushed to sign him) LADE (who is forwards coach) has to go and while you are there FFS take McGlyn with you and tell David Rath he’s a stats guy not a football coach - he shouldn’t have so much to say….but you get the feel Brett is out of his depth
King in any other well coached top 8 side would be used and supported accordingly
Only at Saints, where if he’s not Tony Lockett in year 3 he’s gone
It’s remarkable even after we give him dreadful service, rarely kick to his advantage…he’s no 1 AFL contested marks and on track to lift his goal out out again
King IS NOT the issue he’s a skinny kid who needs genuine direction from a coaching group with real footy nous
He isn’t getting that atm

I wonder if both Kings will end up playing together after all, at the Gold Coast.
King's parents and his manager might advise him to get out of Moorabbin before his career is ruined playing wacky ball.

[The_Dud]

King seems to lack the instincts of a natural forward.
He prefers to stand in one spot.

I'd rather we played him around the ground as a tall, marking utility or try him in the backline even.

Yeah he seems all at sea in the forward line. Not a silly idea to trial him somewhere else on the ground because he's had a few years at FF and it's not working for him.

A 22 year old sitting 4th in the Coleman race

“Nup, clearly can’t play in the forward line”

Genius.

[The_Dud]

Just watching Cats whoever is in charge of their forwards has it right
Even commentary just noted
Hawkins leads up at the ball
Cameron fills space behind
They never lead to the same area
Compare that to our shambolic , bombing game plan
We desperately need to sack Lade (forwards coach) and McGlynn (midfield)
We won’t sack Brett cause the Board has shafted us
But our forward structure AND the transition of ball into it badly needs work
Why not play Sinclsir in the guts now? He’s our best player by a margin and adds the skills by foot into forward 50 we desperately need
Play him and Clarke through
But for gods sake get someone in NOW to rejig the forward line set up

A number of times on Friday we had King, Marshall and Ryder all in the same pack flying for the ball.

It’s laughable.

[Sainter_Dad]

King in any other well coached top 8 side would be used and supported accordingly
Only at Saints, where if he’s not Tony Lockett in year 3 he’s gone
It’s remarkable even after we give him dreadful service, rarely kick to his advantage…he’s no 1 AFL contested marks and on track to lift his goal out out again
King IS NOT the issue he’s a skinny kid who needs genuine direction from a coaching group with real footy nous
He isn’t getting that atm

This

How many of the great full forwards had support??
Even in the times where 10 was considered a bag, there was always a legitimate CHF supporting the main act.
Locket was the greatest FF - Loewe was no slouch at CHF
Dunstall had Dermie who was no witches hat
Longmire had Carey
Ablett (Snr) and Brownless
Lloyd and Lucas

But at St Kilda we do a skinny just over 50 game with no real support and then criticise his:
- Equal 5th on the Coleman
- Leading Contested Marks
- 2nd Marks inside 50

Oh and for those that pick up on his hunched shoulders - I knew a skinny kid at school who was 6 1/2 feet tall and he always walked with a hunch to try and 'fit in' (What's the weather like up there? etc).

Also - maybe the Game Plan is not Bombs Away - and he gets pissed at the work he is being asked to do with arm chops etc - 3 opponents - and a team of dumb @rses who see a clear alternative - ie Higgins streaming into the forward line unattended - but hey kick it over Maxy's head when he has an opponent.

We are lucky that we drafted Max - because at any other team - with even a half decent midfield and players who are smart - he would have already hit 100 goals - seriously - his footy smarts and agility should not be questioned - HE JUST NEEDS SUPPORT and HALF DECENT DELIVERY

How hard is it - play him at CHF and the resting Ruck out of the square - we are in a unique situation of having 2 rucks who are usually reliable kicks at goal!
Use his skills and aerobic ability to our advantage - coz he CAN kick them from 50

[Sainter_Dad]

On another note - the footy pundits have shown that St Kilda small forwards are side on to the ball

XOX -----> o
^
|
|
x
[Ball comes in - has to be punched to side when defenders are trying to return it from when it came]


is so much harder than:
XOX
^|
|v
|xo----->
[Ball comes in - is punched to front where there is a 1 on 1 competition with small defenders]

The way that we do it means that the opposition small defender at the FRONT of the pack get an easy clearance - on the odd occasion that the sideways thing works out - we look like a million bucks - MOST OF THE TIME WE LOOK LIKE FOOLS!!!!!

Simples

[meher baba]

All very interesting stuff but, to my eyes, far and away our main problem on Friday night was our massively outclassed midfield. The coaching staff knew it would be bad, which was why they went with all that faffing around with the ball in the backline: they were trying at all costs to avoid midfield turnovers. It was similar to how we played against Melbourne, and for the same reasons.

Our delivery into our forward line was slow and ill-directed on most occasions. Forwards can lead into space well when they are confident the ball is going to be kicked there. I don't think any of them felt confident at any time on Friday night. Higgins has many faults, but he is extremely good at running into space when the opportunity presents. But the ball needs to come into the forward 50 quicky and accurately. This wasn't happening. It's easy to blame the forwards, but they can't make silk purses out of sow's ears.

As BM said on another thread, we need more players who can hit a target reliably. Hill is definitely not one of those: his running and handballing is good, but - despite the praise the commentators heap on it - his kicking is mostly rubbish. Sinclair is of course heaps better, but he generally plays too far back to set things up inside the forward 50. NWM delivers a mixture of great kicks and rubbish ones, and Wood tends to scatter the ball around. The midfielders and wingmen with the best skills in delivering the ball into attack are Gresham, DMac, Billings and - believe it or not Ross: who is below average by AFL standards, but reasonable in comparison to his teammates. Which says everything that needs to be said about our midfield.

As i have said again and again, we don't have the cattle. If we play at our very best, we can beat anyone, but no eam can keep that up game after game.

[SunnyErnie]

King is a 200cm athlete with very good football skills and agile for his size, but he is not a natural KPP, doesn't play like one and and that's where we're going wrong. Better off just putting him on a HFF, and stop using him as a key target. Membrey, Marshall or even Sharman are more natural forwards and would probably work better at FF. Campbell into the ruck.

204cm actually