Bomb away!!!

[Sanctorum]

There has been a lot of talk on this forum about the way the St Kilda mids bomb the ball into the forward line, with many sheeting the blame directly on to Brett Ratten and his assistants, accusing them of directing the players to intentionally employ this strategy as part of their designated game plan.

Now that I'm retired and have the luxury of time to indulge in watching a lot more footy than ever before, I have really enjoyed observing how all the 18 teams go about setting up their gameday strategies, including the forward structures.

Rather than being just a Saints' peculiarity, it is no surprise to see that "bombing the ball" into the forward line occurs regularly in almost every game I have watched this year.

Yes, it is fantastic to see players landing the ball on the chest of a leading forward, nothing quite like it, and the good teams manage to achieve this far more than the weaker teams. It really comes down to the quality of a team's midfield, their ability to nail their targets, and it separates the wheat from the chaff.

Teams that have the luxury of elite forwards, tall or short, such as Melbourne, Geelong and Richmond do equally well irrespective of whether or not the ball is bombed into the forward line, or passed directly by the mids.

My thesis is that there is not a single coach in the AFL that prescribes a game plan that instructs players to just "bomb away", it is a ridiculous notion.

Coaches devise game plans based on a large number of factors, not the least being the ability of players to hit their targets, which in turn depends on their skill levels. Right now St Kilda does not possess sufficient players with the requisite skill levels to achieve this.

There are of course a myriad of other factors, too many to enumerate for the purposes of this topic.

All I'm trying to say is that it quite unfair for St Kilda supporters to have a crack at Brett Ratten when the players bomb the ball into the forward line, I have no doubt that he cringes (no less than us) whenever he sees yet another "coach killer" disposal that is turned over by the opposition.

[Saintmatt]

Correct. If you have a midfield that wins the ball more often than not then a few things happen : -

1. Half backs can take off and become attacking weapons like Rioli did yesterday. Or Hill did in Q1 on Friday night
2. Forwards generally already have isolation/separation if that occurs at a centre bounce so, easier to take a contested mark one out
3. More space inside 50 which means the likes of Butler and Gresham/Higgins are able to get front and square to contests and/or - get out the back for a cheap Joe the goose

The whole game is about midfielders and the quality and depth thereof. We only regularly bomb it it long because the likes of Ross, Jones and Gresham and to a lesser extent Crouch - are all really poor kicks who are often hurried into the long bomb.

Our best ball users are Hill and Sinclair off of half back and NWM7 off a wing. If our mids had their ball using skill and decision making - King might have a chance to kick 25 in a game.

Compare that to Carlton who's mids and backs gave their forwards plenty of good ball use ... not a lot of long bombs there. It was only the BrownBaggers poor goalkicking that cost them a win.

[bigcarl]

It’s correct that forward structure is only part of the equation. We could have had Lockett and Loewe up forward against the Swans - it would have helped, but wouldn’t have gotten us the win.

Another key part of the equation is ball movement, which Ratten and the brains trust last week correctly identified as a concern and was later addressed by Steele.

You need to move the ball as quickly and directly as possible.

The key is to give forwards space in which to operate, which isn’t easy to do these days with four on the bench and defences flooding back.

Move it quickly and accurately and take the game on.

If you are smashed around the contests elsewhere and can’t get the ball - like against Essendon and Sydney - you haven’t a chance of scoring.

I do think though, that over-reliance on King as a route to goal is still a key concern.

It’s ok to kick to a contest if he is one-out and there’s a crumber nearby. That is a percentage play.

But to still go to him when he is swamped by three opponents is not a percentage play. We need to spot up other options.

I hear a lot of talk from the club about unpredictability of how we move the ball. Well, to kick it to King every time is anything but unpredictable.

[Saintmike65]

It’s correct that forward structure is only part of the equation. We could have had Lockett and Loewe up forward against the Swans - it would have helped, but wouldn’t have gotten us the win.

Another key part of the equation is ball movement, which Ratten and the brains trust last week correctly identified as a concern and was later addressed by Steele.

You need to move the ball as quickly and directly as possible.

The key is to give forwards space in which to operate, which isn’t easy to do these days with four on the bench and defences flooding back.

Move it quickly and accurately and take the game on.

If you are smashed around the contests elsewhere and can’t get the ball - like against Essendon and Sydney - you haven’t a chance of scoring.

I do think though, that over-reliance on King as a route to goal is still a key concern.

It’s ok to kick to a contest if he is one-out and there’s a crumber nearby. That is a percentage play.

But to still go to him when he is swamped by three opponents is not a percentage play. We need to spot up other options.

I hear a lot of talk from the club about unpredictability of how we move the ball. Well, to kick it to King every time is anything but unpredictable.

It’s no coincidence that we played with more dare on Friday night, as that is exactly how they trained on Tuesday afternoon..quick ball movement with ‘wheel and go’ was the edict.
It would be nice to have more elite kicks in the team, rather than rely so heavily on Hill, Sinclair and NWM.

[Saintmatt]

It’s correct that forward structure is only part of the equation. We could have had Lockett and Loewe up forward against the Swans - it would have helped, but wouldn’t have gotten us the win.

Another key part of the equation is ball movement, which Ratten and the brains trust last week correctly identified as a concern and was later addressed by Steele.

You need to move the ball as quickly and directly as possible.

The key is to give forwards space in which to operate, which isn’t easy to do these days with four on the bench and defences flooding back.

Move it quickly and accurately and take the game on.

If you are smashed around the contests elsewhere and can’t get the ball - like against Essendon and Sydney - you haven’t a chance of scoring.

I do think though, that over-reliance on King as a route to goal is still a key concern.

It’s ok to kick to a contest if he is one-out and there’s a crumber nearby. That is a percentage play.

But to still go to him when he is swamped by three opponents is not a percentage play. We need to spot up other options.

I hear a lot of talk from the club about unpredictability of how we move the ball. Well, to kick it to King every time is anything but unpredictable.

It’s no coincidence that we played with more dare on Friday night, as that is exactly how they trained on Tuesday afternoon..quick ball movement with ‘wheel and go’ was the edict.
It would be nice to have more elite kicks in the team, rather than rely so heavily on Hill, Sinclair and NWM.

Exactly. And that's precisely why we play the way we play. We're governed by the kicking limitations of our on ball unit.

[Ghost Like]

Excellent observations - a game plan or lack there of is exposed when a player's concentration waivers or their fitness is impacted & their skill levels isolated.

The biggest coach killer, in my opinion, is when players get lazy or short cut hard work / hard running.

You notice players being caught in no man's land, impacting nothing. Players opting not to do the unrewarded running to create space by drawing opponents - multiple leads. When this is not done the only remaining option is to "Bomb away!!!"

I agree, I'd be amazed if that were the instruction. It would still ultimately fail if we had both Kings and both decided not to lead or could not lead because team mates failed to create space for them.

[bigcarl]

It’s correct that forward structure is only part of the equation. We could have had Lockett and Loewe up forward against the Swans - it would have helped, but wouldn’t have gotten us the win.

Another key part of the equation is ball movement, which Ratten and the brains trust last week correctly identified as a concern and was later addressed by Steele.

You need to move the ball as quickly and directly as possible.

The key is to give forwards space in which to operate, which isn’t easy to do these days with four on the bench and defences flooding back.

Move it quickly and accurately and take the game on.

If you are smashed around the contests elsewhere and can’t get the ball - like against Essendon and Sydney - you haven’t a chance of scoring.

I do think though, that over-reliance on King as a route to goal is still a key concern.

It’s ok to kick to a contest if he is one-out and there’s a crumber nearby. That is a percentage play.

But to still go to him when he is swamped by three opponents is not a percentage play. We need to spot up other options.

I hear a lot of talk from the club about unpredictability of how we move the ball. Well, to kick it to King every time is anything but unpredictable.

It’s no coincidence that we played with more dare on Friday night, as that is exactly how they trained on Tuesday afternoon..quick ball movement with ‘wheel and go’ was the edict.
It would be nice to have more elite kicks in the team, rather than rely so heavily on Hill, Sinclair and NWM.

Exactly. And that's precisely why we play the way we play. We're governed by the kicking limitations of our on ball unit.

Good kicks to position are worth their weight in gold. The ball travels farther, quicker by foot than it ever does by hand.

In general they are outside players. The in-and-unders often don’t have time to steady, so you have to cut the some slack. In general.

I’m very excited by NWM’s progress. Next step is for him to become as reliable kick a for goal as he is to position.

Not sure he’s broken his duck yet, or if he has I must have missed it.

[Trev from the Bush]

Welcome to the profession of full-time footy watcher Sanctorum. There are worse ways to fill the day and few better to broaden your perspective on life.

[Sanctorum]

Good kicks to position are worth their weight in gold. The ball travels farther, quicker by foot than it ever does by hand.

I’m very excited by NWM’s progress. Next step is for him to become as reliable kick a for goal as he is to position.

Yes bc, NWM is showing great composure for a 1st seasoner and Marcus Windhager is also showing a lot of potential, another off-season in the gym and he's going to be a fearsome big unit in the clinches - they're the future of this team, best draftees for years. It's all about the quality of the midfielders which has been the club's Achilles heel for years. Jack Steele is the only mid anywhere near elite standard and that' simply really inadequate if the team is going to contend against the best outfits in the comp.

Expect the club will be working right now on bringing in an experienced mid - Tim Taranto, a Sandringham product, would be perfect and even Karl Amon based on last night's game against Freo will be a worthy addition.

In terms of the game plan against the Blues, having Max king as a decoy, drawing their best defenders and thereby giving space to Ryder/Marshall/Membrey to be the targets in the forward zone worked really well.

[Impatient Sainter]

Agree with the OP we simply dont have the class in the midfield to not bomb it at times. The other side to the discussion is at times
when good kicking players are delivering the ball into the F50 we were still not leading up at the ball. Its no surprise that Membrey's output improved significantly last week, as he mostly worked inside the arc leading up to the ball.

As a lot have been screaming for, we desperately need to draft or recruit more genuine quality midfielders at seasons end!

[Teflon]

Good kicks to position are worth their weight in gold. The ball travels farther, quicker by foot than it ever does by hand.

I’m very excited by NWM’s progress. Next step is for him to become as reliable kick a for goal as he is to position.

Yes bc, NWM is showing great composure for a 1st seasoner and Marcus Windhager is also showing a lot of potential, another off-season in the gym and he's going to be a fearsome big unit in the clinches - they're the future of this team, best draftees for years. It's all about the quality of the midfielders which has been the club's Achilles heel for years. Jack Steele is the only mid anywhere near elite standard and that' simply really inadequate if the team is going to contend against the best outfits in the comp.

Expect the club will be working right now on bringing in an experienced mid - Tim Taranto, a Sandringham product, would be perfect and even Karl Amon based on last night's game against Freo will be a worthy addition.

In terms of the game plan against the Blues, having Max king as a decoy, drawing their best defenders and thereby giving space to Ryder/Marshall/Membrey to be the targets in the forward zone worked really well.

This contradicts your OP but the answer is in the middle
Ofcourse you need kicks to be able to execute going inside 50
But it’s not all you need
You need a game plan a structure that creates space inside 50 and then you need a forward set up drilled to lead to that space
How many times have you seen our forwards contest around goal square or lead to the same space???
Game plan ????
Friday night they created some of that space and that helped but we still bombed - we had 1 mark inside forward 50 at 3qtr time to Blues 8
I’ve also read on BF and elsewhere from those who observed training that we have actually practiced bombing the deep into 50 in a chaos style (perhaps emulating Tigers) in the hope of pressure/crumbers goaling
Do I believe that only 3 players in our current side can hit a lead up forward on the chest?
No I don’t and so I won’t hide behind “it’s all lack of players with skill”
IMO we don’t train this style
We haven’t taught our forwards to lead/play this way
And we haven’t demanded our mids lower their eyes
We play chaos ball and I think we choose to
I also think it’s low % and not repeatable as Riewoldt says - it relies on luck and some occasional individual brilliance which won’t stand up under finals pressure
It’s why I was keen to see Sharman get more than 1 game after a dismal team performance- I was hoping Ratts and team were heading down this multi pronged, leading forward path ….think they’ve now gone back to what they know now and the proof will be in the pudding over time

[nobhead]

Good kicks to position are worth their weight in gold. The ball travels farther, quicker by foot than it ever does by hand.

I’m very excited by NWM’s progress. Next step is for him to become as reliable kick a for goal as he is to position.

Yes bc, NWM is showing great composure for a 1st seasoner and Marcus Windhager is also showing a lot of potential, another off-season in the gym and he's going to be a fearsome big unit in the clinches - they're the future of this team, best draftees for years. It's all about the quality of the midfielders which has been the club's Achilles heel for years. Jack Steele is the only mid anywhere near elite standard and that' simply really inadequate if the team is going to contend against the best outfits in the comp.

Expect the club will be working right now on bringing in an experienced mid - Tim Taranto, a Sandringham product, would be perfect and even Karl Amon based on last night's game against Freo will be a worthy addition.

In terms of the game plan against the Blues, having Max king as a decoy, drawing their best defenders and thereby giving space to Ryder/Marshall/Membrey to be the targets in the forward zone worked really well.

Have seen quite a few games where king stands there waving his arms signalling to his teamates to kick it long.also the forwards standing stationary as well not offering any leads or making space for each other to lead into.someone has to take responsability for that ,ie the coaches.

[shanegrambeau]

I think it is about getting the odds in your favour.

I mean numbers.

2 on ones, 3 on 2s etc.,

Of course they can't control the bounce of the ball.

So even a bomb might work more often if the odds are good more of the time.

But you need a switch...because if the other team goes from zone to match-up odds or vice-versa, there needs to be a plan B

[Teflon]

Good kicks to position are worth their weight in gold. The ball travels farther, quicker by foot than it ever does by hand.

I’m very excited by NWM’s progress. Next step is for him to become as reliable kick a for goal as he is to position.

Yes bc, NWM is showing great composure for a 1st seasoner and Marcus Windhager is also showing a lot of potential, another off-season in the gym and he's going to be a fearsome big unit in the clinches - they're the future of this team, best draftees for years. It's all about the quality of the midfielders which has been the club's Achilles heel for years. Jack Steele is the only mid anywhere near elite standard and that' simply really inadequate if the team is going to contend against the best outfits in the comp.

Expect the club will be working right now on bringing in an experienced mid - Tim Taranto, a Sandringham product, would be perfect and even Karl Amon based on last night's game against Freo will be a worthy addition.

In terms of the game plan against the Blues, having Max king as a decoy, drawing their best defenders and thereby giving space to Ryder/Marshall/Membrey to be the targets in the forward zone worked really well.

Have seen quite a few games where king stands there waving his arms signalling to his teamates to kick it long.also the forwards standing stationary as well not offering any leads or making space for each other to lead into.someone has to take responsability for that ,ie the coaches.

I agree
It’s definitely not ingrained in the players
You watch Buddy/Swans week before it was every time they went forwards players lowered the eyes, looked for the leading option (and not always Buddy to the sane spot!)
I’ve no doubt we don’t practice that
We’ve also been poor (bottom 4 AFL transition from D50) all year - it’s not been corrected…why??
That worries me re game plan/coaching
As good as Sincs etc off HB has been great I’d prefer when Clark is back that he goes back, get Sincs into the middle more and FFS have Hill off a wing/HFF bringing the ball into 50 that’s where we need his damaging foot skills
It’s just a shame Billings plays so safe and doesn’t hit up those inside 50 kicks ….
It’s why I’m also praying Connolly makes it- has attacking foot skills abd a nice side step ….could be really good off HB for some time

[SaintPav]

Aren’t both Sinclair and Hill weapons off HB? The opposition tag Hill which frees up Sinclair.

Play differently with Sinclair being able to take contested marks and having an insides game as well as being to set up play.

Voss suggested that it was not a good idea to tag both.

[Teflon]

Aren’t both Sinclair and Hill weapons off HB? The opposition tag Hill which frees up Sinclair.

Play differently with Sinclair being able to take contested marks and having an insides game as well as being to set up play.

Voss suggested that it was not a good idea to tag both.

I think Hill at times is lost down back and turns it over sometimes when he’s not on the run
Think his at his most dangerous on wing/HFF into 50
Can’t see them moving them both but I loved what Sincs brought to our midfield against Pies…it’s a polish we don’t have in there ..
But yes you lose run of HB
It means short term midfield struggles for decent ball use by foot

[saintsRrising]

Bomb Away, or King Away?

The problem we have had in way too many games was the insane focus on King when there were often better options available elsewhere.
This was made even worse as King often does not lead much.

This made defence simple for the opposition. Just number around him, including a player in front. With the numbers one player would try and make body contact to put King off, and the other opponents could then crumb or mark.

In the match we have just played against the Blues it was starkly different for most of the game, and in particular in the first quarter the Blues defenders were often badly caught out as they were still massing around King who we went out of our way to ignore and King also seemed to playing the decoy role to open up our forward line.

King was often on his bike more against the Blues to head up to the wing or even HB to be a target.


Now was this difference all due to the players? I doubt it. I think both coaches and players got too excited by King's 10 minute goal burst early in the year that they thought it could become the norm, and not just for 10 minutes in one quarter, but whole quarters.


By being too King centric, we became too predictable and moreso as in doing so we were often bombing at King, rather than passing it too him.



All teams will bomb, as sometimes it is the only option. But doing it too often will mainly end badly for the team doing the bombing.

[Life Long Saint]

In all honesty, how many of our midfielders would you be confident of consistently hitting a leading target?
Hill and Sinclair are two that spring to mind, but they are rarely delivering the ball inside 50. Anyone else? Maybe Billings.
Too often, the ball goes over the head of a leading player. With Rooey, it used to be delivered at his ankles.
Crouch, Jones, Gresh, and Ross aren't Harvey, Dal Santo, Goddard, and Winmar.

We need to get a lot better by foot going inside 50 to be a genuine top 4 threat.

[Teflon]

In all honesty, how many of our midfielders would you be confident of consistently hitting a leading target?
Hill and Sinclair are two that spring to mind, but they are rarely delivering the ball inside 50. Anyone else? Maybe Billings.
Too often, the ball goes over the head of a leading player. With Rooey, it used to be delivered at his ankles.
Crouch, Jones, Gresh, and Ross aren't Harvey, Dal Santo, Goddard, and Winmar.

We need to get a lot better by foot going inside 50 to be a genuine top 4 threat.

Totally agree but how many sides midfields have 4 Brad Hills in them?
I think we also need to train this and I’m not sure based on our poor leading patterns forward set up we do
I’m certain Steele, Gresham , Crouch even Jones! Can hit a 15-20m kick to a forward leading into space if they know what’s regularly expected
That’s Riewoldts point - what we do now is not consistent it can’t be it’s all chaos ball/bomb/huge King pack mark/bring ball to ground stuff
Reality is our best forward is unstoppable on the lead with a jump at the ball - virtually impossible to spoil
So we don’t demand he leads and bomb it on his head
Dumb. That can’t be just “all players are dumb” this has to be game plan induced also
That’s my main gripe with Ratten - fix it! Or fix the coaching staff around you so they fix it !!
3 years already ..,,tick tock…

[shanegrambeau]

Don't forget that a bomb to a F50 contest can result in a free kick - in the forward's favour. And if that free goes the other way, which of course it can, the bomber and his mates are probably still reasonably far enough behind the ball to set up a defence.