What has changed structure wise?

[D.B.Cooper]

Effort and confidence are obviously major issues.

On top of this & very simplistically the two major differences I see now are.

Defense turn overs
We had been creating turnovers at half back & Sinclair & Hill had been driving the ball forward. This gave Max more opportunity and allowed Higgins, Gresh etc to run forward of the ball.

Wingers running power
The wingers in DMac and Wood are both very good two way runners and we’re pushing back deep in defense to assist plus kick an odd goal.

With DMac and Wood out and teams putting time into Sinclair and Hill we seem to have lost a lot of rebound.

Of course this is the tip of the iceberg as but it is noticeable and the forwards seem increasingly frustrated.

[spert]

We had a winning team where the chemistry was mostly working, then changed it, plus had injuries. Bringing in Jones, Higgins, Billings and Butler, and dropping Wood and Sharman changed the structure. Owens was doing reasonably well before injury, then we lose DMac. Paddy seems to have gone off the boil sin the ruck since he was suspended, though wouldn't have had much impact against the Swans.

[Teflon]

Let’s be honest though
We are now hitting good sides in form - the level has been raised
We are under pressure sides see Sinclair and clamp down on him and we have nothing else
Ball movement from D50 to F50 has been poor for 3 years not fixed
Forwards dont or not training to lead up the footy
It’s “bomb it to Max …he’ll create contest and Dan/Higgins can get out the back to goal”
Problem is opponents are on to it
We have no system , no plan B and some extremely poorly skilled mids getting games

[SaintPav]

Effort and confidence are obviously major issues.

On top of this & very simplistically the two major differences I see now are.

Defense turn overs
We had been creating turnovers at half back & Sinclair & Hill had been driving the ball forward. This gave Max more opportunity and allowed Higgins, Gresh etc to run forward of the ball.

Wingers running power
The wingers in DMac and Wood are both very good two way runners and we’re pushing back deep in defense to assist plus kick an odd goal.

With DMac and Wood out and teams putting time into Sinclair and Hill we seem to have lost a lot of rebound.

Of course this is the tip of the iceberg as but it is noticeable and the forwards seem increasingly frustrated.

In just a few weeks we have lost all sense of confidence and skill. Playing without any enthusiasm.

Why?

What’s the game plan? I doubt it’s just bomb it to King.

Need to at least break even with contested ball before we even start talking about game plans.

[repta]

Very interesting the loss of DMc has had on the team. Has been outstanding this year in a non fuss, get it done way.
His aggression and presents around the ball leading up into the wing has been a big loss.
If I was asked a few weeks a go I wouldnt have thought it would have been as bigger issue as it seems to have had.

There is major issues with the team structure at the moment. The saints dont seem to have a spine that can hold their own. In the last few weeks they seem to go in circles and never driving the ball forawrd. Over use (too many handballs) has become an issue. Maybe other teams have worked out the saints game plan. The Saints have become an eternally slow moving team.

[Vortex]

Currently don't have any forwards bringing a defensive mindset once the ball hits the deck. Kingy throws his toys out of the cot when it doesn't go his way. Sharman doesn't have any defensive attributes plus other deficiencies. The smalls aren't contributing anything, desperately need Higgins back in form and bringing defence and a team focus.. Ball runs out of F50 way too easily.

Midfield is short of talent and form.

Teams have worked our backline out, cover our interceptors and Syncs was tagged and so if there aren't other runners the ball spends too much time in D50.

[shanegrambeau]

Watching Geelong and Richmond this weekend - both of whom might have made short work of the SCG Saints, I can’t help noticing how many turn overs and errors they made, and yet they were playing a pressure high stakes game.

So I conclude that our misses and lack of system etc., is a product of not being strong enough, just overwhelmed.

So what does that call for?

Back to basics I would say
Percentage tennis. Base line. Vanilla football. Now that might not suit more flamboyant players. And may lead to a stale vibe settling in- which might lead to a Buckley-at-Collingwood or a Lyon-at-Freo type scenario. Which is not inspiring.

The other option is to go down the route of North and Essendon, just play balls out, with less emphasis on accountability and cohesion and rely on magic bursts of offensive play.

And now Ratts contract is sitting above everything.
And we know that momentum just rolls on. as processes are followed, targets met and boxes ticked. So I expect he’ll be resigned , and it will have to be accountable and boring model that needs to be followed.
We looked undisciplined because we tried to be fancy and didn’t man up.

The other option is drudgery, but I feel that it is the only option.

[samoht]

We can now leverage off our poor performances and pay Ratten unders or what he's really worth - what all coaches are really worth, quite frankly.

I think Hill's run and carry was missed ... and McKenzie and Wood's workrates shouldn't be underestimated.

In games where Hill is covered and doesn't provide the run we need - and especially if Gresham is also having an average day, we get bogged down.
We can't generate enough chains of play to kick a decent score.

[cps]

Effort and confidence are obviously major issues.

On top of this & very simplistically the two major differences I see now are.

Defense turn overs
We had been creating turnovers at half back & Sinclair & Hill had been driving the ball forward. This gave Max more opportunity and allowed Higgins, Gresh etc to run forward of the ball.

Wingers running power
The wingers in DMac and Wood are both very good two way runners and we’re pushing back deep in defense to assist plus kick an odd goal.

With DMac and Wood out and teams putting time into Sinclair and Hill we seem to have lost a lot of rebound.

Of course this is the tip of the iceberg as but it is noticeable and the forwards seem increasingly frustrated.

Good observation, we definitely seemed unable to move the ball with any speed on Saturday. The slow movement allowed Sydney's defence to set up ahead of the ball which just made things harder.

[skeptic]

IMO the challenge is style.

Good St.Kilda footy sees players get the ball, move it fast, take on the contest, back themselves to beat their man, kick to leading forwards.
Bad St.Kilda footy sees the player get the ball, move it around, chip here and there, eventually run out of options, kick the ball long, indiscriminately towards a pack and see it rebound. Players stop leading and running.

We’ve played bad St.Kilda footy with a degree of regularity since the AR years and we always look terrible doing it. We don’t have the speed, skills and decision making to make it work.

The question that is intriguing to me is that how/why does it happen?

Is it a damaged psyche amongst players that resort to it under pressure?
If so, culprits need to singled out and dropped and the leadership group/senior players and Ratten need to stamp it out when it’s happening.

Or is it somehow part of the game plan?
I lean towards this because all tough often I see Howard take the kick outs instead of Sinclair and I don’t get why? No disrespect to Howard but his move is consistently... hold the ball, hold it, hold it, kick long to a contest.

Other guys like Sinclair, sometimes do that, sometimes go short, sometimes play on and run it.

That one little bit of change to style is what kills us every time.

We look absolutely electric when we take on the play and we are barely VFL standard when we slow it down.

It’s a mystery to me why it happens

[seano1]

Ahh the value of Hill …..people keep having a go at him ……he’s a runner , not a in n under tackler type . If he’s not being tied down his value is there and also allows Sinclair some freedom to do the same along with DMac.
We are a one trick pony with our forward plan wouldn’t have taken long for the opposing coaches to work it out if most in here picked it in round 2

[samoht]

In a nutshell, we need more runners/playmakers. We need to be less frozen in stillness - and become much more fluid.
We need to break loose and run free, to generate many more chains of play.

[Vortex]

IMO the challenge is style.

Good St.Kilda footy sees players get the ball, move it fast, take on the contest, back themselves to beat their man, kick to leading forwards.
Bad St.Kilda footy sees the player get the ball, move it around, chip here and there, eventually run out of options, kick the ball long, indiscriminately towards a pack and see it rebound. Players stop leading and running.

We’ve played bad St.Kilda footy with a degree of regularity since the AR years and we always look terrible doing it. We don’t have the speed, skills and decision making to make it work.

The question that is intriguing to me is that how/why does it happen?

Is it a damaged psyche amongst players that resort to it under pressure?
If so, culprits need to singled out and dropped and the leadership group/senior players and Ratten need to stamp it out when it’s happening.

Or is it somehow part of the game plan?
I lean towards this because all tough often I see Howard take the kick outs instead of Sinclair and I don’t get why? No disrespect to Howard but his move is consistently... hold the ball, hold it, hold it, kick long to a contest.

Other guys like Sinclair, sometimes do that, sometimes go short, sometimes play on and run it.

That one little bit of change to style is what kills us every time.

We look absolutely electric when we take on the play and we are barely VFL standard when we slow it down.

It’s a mystery to me why it happens

A couple of points Skeptic, when do we stop blaming Richo for our problems, how long has it been since he left?

Secon thing regarding style, teams have worked us out, they know Syncs is one of the cherished clubs in our bag and how we like to move the ball, against the Swans they tagged him, and so without Hill in the side it was extremely easy to slow us up and plug our outlets. And without the athletic profiles of DMac and Wood, finding a way through the middle with limited runners was always going to be tough.

Sometimes it just comes down to simple stuff like that, all of our other problems are related to a lack of depth in our list.

[bigcarl]

We lack a strong, physical contested presence in the forward line. This is the key structural issue and has been for several seasons. I think we need two genuine key forwards as well as a strong ruck division.

It’s not enough to expect a resting ruckman to double as a key forward.

I could propose a number of possible solutions to this, but Ratts and Co seem obsessed with run and pace over structure.

You know, play Campbell as second ruck and have Marshall up forward for the whole match. Switch Howard forward and give Joyce a run in defence. That type of thing. There’s any number of variations.

The other problem is that, we’re being smashed around the ball and at clearances. McKenzie has been a big loss. You need players with his fanaticism and it’s hard to cover his never-say-die attitude.

I think on Saturday our guys dropped their heads and gave up the ghost after the decisions kept going against them. What was the free-kick count? Twenty-six to 12 or similar. That can seem insurmountable when you are trying to stay in a game interstate. Hard enough to combat the opposition, let alone the umpires and home crowd.

Anyhow, the season is not done yet and the club is obliged to play its best possible team while we are still technically a chance. We need Ryder, Hill and McKenzie back in (fitness permitting) ASAP.

If we do fall out of contention for the eight, then I guess it is time to pump games into kids like Owens and Windhager. That will put a few noses out of joint, but so be it.

[D.B.Cooper]

IMO the challenge is style.

Good St.Kilda footy sees players get the ball, move it fast, take on the contest, back themselves to beat their man, kick to leading forwards.
Bad St.Kilda footy sees the player get the ball, move it around, chip here and there, eventually run out of options, kick the ball long, indiscriminately towards a pack and see it rebound. Players stop leading and running.

We’ve played bad St.Kilda footy with a degree of regularity since the AR years and we always look terrible doing it. We don’t have the speed, skills and decision making to make it work.

The question that is intriguing to me is that how/why does it happen?

Is it a damaged psyche amongst players that resort to it under pressure?
If so, culprits need to singled out and dropped and the leadership group/senior players and Ratten need to stamp it out when it’s happening.

Or is it somehow part of the game plan?
I lean towards this because all tough often I see Howard take the kick outs instead of Sinclair and I don’t get why? No disrespect to Howard but his move is consistently... hold the ball, hold it, hold it, kick long to a contest.

Other guys like Sinclair, sometimes do that, sometimes go short, sometimes play on and run it.

That one little bit of change to style is what kills us every time.

We look absolutely electric when we take on the play and we are barely VFL standard when we slow it down.

It’s a mystery to me why it happens

A couple of points Skeptic, when do we stop blaming Richo for our problems, how long has it been since he left?

Secon thing regarding style, teams have worked us out, they know Syncs is one of the cherished clubs in our bag and how we like to move the ball, against the Swans they tagged him, and so without Hill in the side it was extremely easy to slow us up and plug our outlets. And without the athletic profiles of DMac and Wood, finding a way through the middle with limited runners was always going to be tough.

Sometimes it just comes down to simple stuff like that, all of our other problems are related to a lack of depth in our list.

McRae has changed the Collingwood style in one pre-season as has Voss with his defensive edge at Carlton.
Ratten has had plenty of time to implement his game style on the team.

[Vortex]

IMO the challenge is style.

Good St.Kilda footy sees players get the ball, move it fast, take on the contest, back themselves to beat their man, kick to leading forwards.
Bad St.Kilda footy sees the player get the ball, move it around, chip here and there, eventually run out of options, kick the ball long, indiscriminately towards a pack and see it rebound. Players stop leading and running.

We’ve played bad St.Kilda footy with a degree of regularity since the AR years and we always look terrible doing it. We don’t have the speed, skills and decision making to make it work.

The question that is intriguing to me is that how/why does it happen?

Is it a damaged psyche amongst players that resort to it under pressure?
If so, culprits need to singled out and dropped and the leadership group/senior players and Ratten need to stamp it out when it’s happening.

Or is it somehow part of the game plan?
I lean towards this because all tough often I see Howard take the kick outs instead of Sinclair and I don’t get why? No disrespect to Howard but his move is consistently... hold the ball, hold it, hold it, kick long to a contest.

Other guys like Sinclair, sometimes do that, sometimes go short, sometimes play on and run it.

That one little bit of change to style is what kills us every time.

We look absolutely electric when we take on the play and we are barely VFL standard when we slow it down.

It’s a mystery to me why it happens

A couple of points Skeptic, when do we stop blaming Richo for our problems, how long has it been since he left?

Secon thing regarding style, teams have worked us out, they know Syncs is one of the cherished clubs in our bag and how we like to move the ball, against the Swans they tagged him, and so without Hill in the side it was extremely easy to slow us up and plug our outlets. And without the athletic profiles of DMac and Wood, finding a way through the middle with limited runners was always going to be tough.

Sometimes it just comes down to simple stuff like that, all of our other problems are related to a lack of depth in our list.

McRae has changed the Collingwood style in one pre-season as has Voss with his defensive edge at Carlton.
Ratten has had plenty of time to implement his game style on the team.

I think the game style is pretty obvious, game plans are always pretty similar but every now and then a coach will implements something innovative that sticks but then most coaches copy it. The problem always is execution hence when we have runners out like Hill, DMac and Wood then it's pretty easy to decide to tag the only outlet from the back half in Syncs out of the game.

Aussie Rules is a really simple game but if you want to be good at it you have have good players on every line.

[Teflon]

IMO the challenge is style.

Good St.Kilda footy sees players get the ball, move it fast, take on the contest, back themselves to beat their man, kick to leading forwards.
Bad St.Kilda footy sees the player get the ball, move it around, chip here and there, eventually run out of options, kick the ball long, indiscriminately towards a pack and see it rebound. Players stop leading and running.

We’ve played bad St.Kilda footy with a degree of regularity since the AR years and we always look terrible doing it. We don’t have the speed, skills and decision making to make it work.

The question that is intriguing to me is that how/why does it happen?

Is it a damaged psyche amongst players that resort to it under pressure?
If so, culprits need to singled out and dropped and the leadership group/senior players and Ratten need to stamp it out when it’s happening.

Or is it somehow part of the game plan?
I lean towards this because all tough often I see Howard take the kick outs instead of Sinclair and I don’t get why? No disrespect to Howard but his move is consistently... hold the ball, hold it, hold it, kick long to a contest.

Other guys like Sinclair, sometimes do that, sometimes go short, sometimes play on and run it.

That one little bit of change to style is what kills us every time.

We look absolutely electric when we take on the play and we are barely VFL standard when we slow it down.

It’s a mystery to me why it happens

A couple of points Skeptic, when do we stop blaming Richo for our problems, how long has it been since he left?

Secon thing regarding style, teams have worked us out, they know Syncs is one of the cherished clubs in our bag and how we like to move the ball, against the Swans they tagged him, and so without Hill in the side it was extremely easy to slow us up and plug our outlets. And without the athletic profiles of DMac and Wood, finding a way through the middle with limited runners was always going to be tough.

Sometimes it just comes down to simple stuff like that, all of our other problems are related to a lack of depth in our list.

McRae has changed the Collingwood style in one pre-season as has Voss with his defensive edge at Carlton.
Ratten has had plenty of time to implement his game style on the team.

I think the game style is pretty obvious, game plans are always pretty similar but every now and then a coach will implements something innovative that sticks but then most coaches copy it. The problem always is execution hence when we have runners out like Hill, DMac and Wood then it's pretty easy to decide to tag the only outlet from the back half in Syncs out of the game.

Aussie Rules is a really simple game but if you want to be good at it you have have good players on every line.

Oh so the list is just Shyte all of a sudden?
Fascinating..
I see a game plan that hasn’t changed since 2020 - Lethlean now admits sides have worked it out…whose job is that? Shyte list?
I see a “bomb to forward 50” that’s been the same style for 3 years with zero solutions….Shyte list
What about the introduction of stop start footy vs previous play on /take the game on with players clearly second guessing themselves???
Aussie rules is simple
Players aren’t geniuses so good coaches make and keep it simple and have the ability to adapt game plan to their lists capability
Our coach is clearly failing to get that message across
Or under your theory ….we just started having a Shyte list last 3 weeks????