Player Development

[Sainter_Dad]

I am scratching my head at the discussions recently about Billings v Bont, the leading patterns of Max, our midfield, etc

I am thinking it is not the players issues
- Max in any other team would be tearing it up - with the right support and strategies
- Bont - if he came to us - I feel we would have robbed the sport of a great talent
- McCartin - was recruited for a reason - and that did not work, however, would Trac have come on if he we had selected him?
- Clark and Coffield - hardly tearing the game apart
- Our new recruits are doing better than I expected given our past track record
- Bytel and Byrnes - enough said
- Battle struggled until recently

We talk about recruitment - I suspect that no matter who we had recruited in the not too distant past would have ended up a GOP player - We went through a horrendous time with YOUNG player development - our main successes have been with mature aged recruits who are already battle hardened - except Sinclair and RoMa - but I suspect this was a happy accident

Here is hoping that the penny has dropped - but I rather suspect that player development at St Kilda is an afterthought - not the prime directive

[Otiman]

We are definitely better off now than we were 2-3 years ago.

Our only saving grace from that period was to pick players that had already developed in our mature aged recruits.

[Yorkeys]

We have been terribly unlucky that injuries have stuffed Clark, Paton, Higgins, Coffield, Bytel and seemingly Marshall. If they had not been cut down to shadows of what they were we would be in a much better situation. At the same time there has been a wear & tear decline in Membrey, Butler, Hill and Paddy. That's not even considering our #1 pick was worthless to us development wise.
It's some sort of curse.

[Impatient Sainter]

It has improved, but it only took the club nearly 150 years to put some resources into player development.

Billings, Clark & Coffield etc etc are good examples of how poor the club has been in turning good players into elite.

[Killa]

For starters, how many games have Billings, Clark and Coffield played this season and why?

Plus Paton is coming back from a very serious injury which cost him a season

It happens

And given Owens was available, we would have 3 kids drafted straight from under 18’s football in the side

Some of the commentary on here beggars description

[Sainter_Dad]

For starters, how many games have Billings, Clark and Coffield played this season and why?

Plus Paton is coming back from a very serious injury which cost him a season

It happens

And given Owens was available, we would have 3 kids drafted straight from under 18’s football in the side

Some of the commentary on here beggars description

I am not talking about this year - the three you have mentioned have had plenty of time to be developed - aside from last years draftees - please name a player that you can say we have honestly developed in house???

I can only name Sinclair as being an out and out champion

We have improved - but we have lost many years of development of the younger kids

[skeptic]

I tend to lean towards the poor development angle rather than the lack of talent one of for no other reason, I just don’t believe that a club can get it so consistently wrong so often… but let’s park that for now.

My impression is that our development is problematic in 2 key areas.

1. Over the last 7odd years, we’ve tended favour the approach that leans heavily on having too many fairly restricted/limited players in the team the same time. I speak of course of the FP problem.

A FP in my opinion, is meant to be in essence a midfielder with a deficiency in their game that stops them from being able to be a permanent mid.
We have with a lot of regularity had 2-3, types of this player in the team at the one time
Butler, Kent, Lonie, Hind, Parker, Higgins, Weller, Newnes… pbly others.

Typically none of them get enough ball… some due to size, others speed… and many weren’t skilled enough to consistently make the most of the limited opportunities they get.
To me, only Butler and Higgins have looked worth persevering with from the outside yet all have played close to 50 games +.

The problem with this, other than it costs games by having so many players that can’t compete…. It kind of brings me to problem 2.

2. I don’t like the way we afford opportunities to solid youngsters on the list.
IMO the formula has always been solid…. The first 20-30 games for most players, especially mids is a bit of a write off. All you’re really hoping for is that players show they have something to work with. Then they just need semi-regular experience whilst they develop physically.

Guys like Byrnes, Connolly, Highmore, Sharman, Bytel etc are never meant to be add water = instant super star players. They’re meant to be exactly what Bytel and Connolly have been - inconsistent kids that are promising.
Bytel is a kid that gets 7-8 tackles and had a few games where he hit the scoreboard and 17-28 touches.

That’s an incredible return for a guy with SFA experience. Yeah he got phased out of a number of other games too but that’s ok. Bring him in, bring him out.
Connolly almost looked top22 a year ago.

I know Bytel has been injured the last month but it really annoys me that neither has gotten a look in this year. And neither has Highmore for that matter.
And we’re having the same discussion about Sharman already seemingly out of favour though in fairness, he’s at least played a few games.

The problem here is that when some guys are so easily afforded opportunity and others come in and are dropped after one mistake…
You create this mantra where some youngsters come in with too much pressure on them to be spectacular or go back to Sandy. It’s a recipe for choking.

It should be sink or swim for everyone not firmly in the top 22 or everyone gets a chance that comes with leniency.

But when you have a guy like Jones or Clark that were clearly not at peak fitness or return but get persevered with…
But then other players are immediately dropped for not doing enough… it just doesn’t feel right. This inconsistency has been a bad smell for a while now IMO

[bangaulegend]

For starters, how many games have Billings, Clark and Coffield played this season and why?

Plus Paton is coming back from a very serious injury which cost him a season

It happens

And given Owens was available, we would have 3 kids drafted straight from under 18’s football in the side

Some of the commentary on here beggars description

I thought you pulled the pin on Saintsational

[skeptic]

For starters, how many games have Billings, Clark and Coffield played this season and why?

Plus Paton is coming back from a very serious injury which cost him a season

It happens

And given Owens was available, we would have 3 kids drafted straight from under 18’s football in the side

Some of the commentary on here beggars description

I thought you pulled the pin on Saintsational

I think we all have our moments... if he’s back then I say welcome back

[bangaulegend]

For starters, how many games have Billings, Clark and Coffield played this season and why?

Plus Paton is coming back from a very serious injury which cost him a season

It happens

And given Owens was available, we would have 3 kids drafted straight from under 18’s football in the side

Some of the commentary on here beggars description

I thought you pulled the pin on Saintsational

I think we all have our moments... if he’s back then I say welcome back

Fair call some times people say things & when confronted by criticism feel they are being persecuted imagine how Sunny Ernie must feel

[meher baba]

Bytel is a kid that gets 7-8 tackles and had a few games where he hit the scoreboard and 17-28 touches.

I assume you are talking at the VFL level, because at AFL level he averages under 4 tackles per game, has only scored 2 goals in 16 games, and has never had more than 21 touches in a game, his average being around 12.

The first 20-30 games for most players, especially mids is a bit of a write off.

Which is why you don't give all of your young players lots and lots of games if you are seriously trying to make the finals, which we appear to be. On the other hand, we have been regularly selecting NWM, Windhager and, more recently, Owens, because not only are they young and developing players, but they are also showing some really good form.

Meanwhile, Connolly is not doing anything special at Sandy and Bytel was up and down before getting injured at a time when (after Owens got injured) he might have had a good chance of getting a game. Byrnes and Sharman have been showing good form at VFL level and have been rewarded.

Highmore is desperately unlucky because our backline has been performing well and there have been few injuries, and because the club recruited a seasoned potential replacement in Lienert.

I can't see very much wrong with our selection policy this year at all. Paradoxically, if I have any criticism, it is that I think we have relied a bit too much on some of the younger players: I thought there were too many selected against Brisbane and it showed.

[Yorkeys]

Yes, disappointed Connolly has not played more seniors this year. Thought he was going to be the goods.

[Sanctorum]

I tend to lean towards the poor development angle rather than the lack of talent one of for no other reason, I just don’t believe that a club can get it so consistently wrong so often… but let’s park that for now.

My impression is that our development is problematic in 2 key areas.

1. Over the last 7odd years, we’ve tended favour the approach that leans heavily on having too many fairly restricted/limited players in the team the same time. I speak of course of the FP problem.

A FP in my opinion, is meant to be in essence a midfielder with a deficiency in their game that stops them from being able to be a permanent mid.
We have with a lot of regularity had 2-3, types of this player in the team at the one time
Butler, Kent, Lonie, Hind, Parker, Higgins, Weller, Newnes… pbly others.

Typically none of them get enough ball… some due to size, others speed… and many weren’t skilled enough to consistently make the most of the limited opportunities they get.
To me, only Butler and Higgins have looked worth persevering with from the outside yet all have played close to 50 games +.

The problem with this, other than it costs games by having so many players that can’t compete…. It kind of brings me to problem 2.

2. I don’t like the way we afford opportunities to solid youngsters on the list.
IMO the formula has always been solid…. The first 20-30 games for most players, especially mids is a bit of a write off. All you’re really hoping for is that players show they have something to work with. Then they just need semi-regular experience whilst they develop physically.

Guys like Byrnes, Connolly, Highmore, Sharman, Bytel etc are never meant to be add water = instant super star players. They’re meant to be exactly what Bytel and Connolly have been - inconsistent kids that are promising.
Bytel is a kid that gets 7-8 tackles and had a few games where he hit the scoreboard and 17-28 touches.

That’s an incredible return for a guy with SFA experience. Yeah he got phased out of a number of other games too but that’s ok. Bring him in, bring him out.
Connolly almost looked top22 a year ago.

I know Bytel has been injured the last month but it really annoys me that neither has gotten a look in this year. And neither has Highmore for that matter.
And we’re having the same discussion about Sharman already seemingly out of favour though in fairness, he’s at least played a few games.

The problem here is that when some guys are so easily afforded opportunity and others come in and are dropped after one mistake…
You create this mantra where some youngsters come in with too much pressure on them to be spectacular or go back to Sandy. It’s a recipe for choking.

It should be sink or swim for everyone not firmly in the top 22 or everyone gets a chance that comes with leniency.

But when you have a guy like Jones or Clark that were clearly not at peak fitness or return but get persevered with…
But then other players are immediately dropped for not doing enough… it just doesn’t feel right. This inconsistency has been a bad smell for a while now IMO

You paint a sordid picture skeptic, but hard to disagree with your assessments. There's not a single draftee talent that has developed into a seriously good player. Even Jade Gresham who is almost 25 and rated by some commentators as a great player is not anywhere near elite, for a start, like many of his team mates he plays mainly for himself, by himself even.

Jack Bytel, who's now 22, has been plagued by chronic injuries (even before he was drafted in 2018) is unlikely to make the grade.

Player development has been woeful in the past 10 years - sure, Jack Sinclair has become close to A grade, but he's 27 and you have to ask why does it take so many years for St Kilda players to hit their straps.

Seb Ross yet another who at 29 is arguably having his best season ever.

How to explain why a star such as Bradley Hill comes to our club and fails to emulate his performances at Hawthorn and Fremantle, is there something in the water at Moorabbin???

Why is Max King, potentially a Coleman Medallist, so one-dimensional in the way he performs as the team's key forward - is he going to achieve his potential at St Kilda? Not the way he is going, that's for sure.

This year we have all been delighted with an 8-3 and equal 4th place in the comp at the halfway mark, but it's rapidly turning into a phantom pregnancy: could well be a stillbirth after nine months.

I'm normally very positive in my thoughts and opinions about my beloved Saints but the last 2 games are taking a toll.

Nevertheless I fervently wish and hope that our players will show some spirit and spine against the Swans in Sydney on Saturday night, this is an 8 point game and a loss will make the team's prospects to play finals nigh impossible - however the selectors are persisting with an unbalanced lineup, leaving the ruck work to the out of form Rowan Marshall sounds crazy to me...but I could be wrong.

Beat Sydney, followed by Carlton, Fremantle and Footscray and I'll back off.

If not there needs to be an immediate review of where the club is going wrong because if the football department is afflicted with crippling metastasis then the sooner this is identified and remedied the better.