Time to call Clarkson Saints!!!

[SunnyErnie]

He'll get his extension whether we like it or not.

Not if GT comes in and overthrows the whole board which is what I am hoping for!!!

[Teflon]

I really like Ratten - you can’t help but like him
But he just doesn’t have that edge is my honest view to command consistent performance
Ratten talks about “effort” I read (and I dislike him!) somewhere recently where Scott at Cats as a coach said he hates other coaches talking about “effort” all the time because that ought to be a given - not an ask
It’s why I never rated Grant Thomas - it was all attack footy with emotion eg “play fir jumper” or “give great effort”
Great coaches don’t ask for effort - that’s expected
What they do is put in place systems and a structured game plan that holds up u der finals pressure
Yes the players have to execute but if you don’t bring effort each week you don’t play
We have zero system in transition
Our forward entry is chaotic mess
Our forward play is “kick to King”
That tells me
1. Our game plan has serious flaws
2. We carry to many B grade players with poor decision/execution skills
We need a seriously skilled and respected senior AFL coach who has the edge to bring/address those things and demand consistent performance
Not a quarter here and there
I fear it’s already too late.

[D.B.Cooper]

I doubt Hardwick, Simpson, Goodwin et al are genius Coaches.

I think we need to stick with the coach (as much as I’m not a fan) but surround him with the high end mentors and team to be successful.

[samuraisaint]

Clarkson coached one of the greatest teams of all time. If he coached us he would coach against other sides as if we are Hawthorn. Then we would get more results like we had last night.
Ratten now knows who he can rely on and who he can't.
I would be of the mind that several players who played last night won't be there in 2023. They may play again this season but papers would be stamped.
Barring illness/virus, the way the team started and finished last night was completely unacceptable. To do it against a team who are as poor as anybody going around makes it doubly so.
And the fact that some of them were in the same team who did the exact same thing last year means that they can't learn from mistakes. Even down to the way Hind tore us apart was the same as last year.
Embarrassing.

[Impatient Sainter]

I really like Ratten - you can’t help but like him
But he just doesn’t have that edge is my honest view to command consistent performance
Ratten talks about “effort” I read (and I dislike him!) somewhere recently where Scott at Cats as a coach said he hates other coaches talking about “effort” all the time because that ought to be a given - not an ask
It’s why I never rated Grant Thomas - it was all attack footy with emotion eg “play fir jumper” or “give great effort”
Great coaches don’t ask for effort - that’s expected
What they do is put in place systems and a structured game plan that holds up u der finals pressure
Yes the players have to execute but if you don’t bring effort each week you don’t play
We have zero system in transition
Our forward entry is chaotic mess
Our forward play is “kick to King”
That tells me
1. Our game plan has serious flaws
2. We carry to many B grade players with poor decision/execution skills
We need a seriously skilled and respected senior AFL coach who has the edge to bring/address those things and demand consistent performance
Not a quarter here and there
I fear it’s already too late.

Totally agree Teflon. How many times last night did we see our players running through the middle with the ball and confused as to where to kick it. Marshall & King refuse to or have been told not to lead up at the ball, so the inevitable occurs. Essendon like Brisbane just stationed players around King and rebounded off him.

Marshall was playing on a guy 15cms shorter than him but wanted to engage in body contests. Who ever is coaching him this season, has him so out of form its embarrassing.

If Ratten bases his coaching philosophy on effort and commitment then why does he keep rewarding players who give zero each week? Ever since the Geelong game (losing Steele) the entire club has lost its way, which is extremely poor coaching IMO. No club or coach should be so reliant one player irs rubbish.

[B.M]

If Clarkson is all it takes to be successful

What happened from 2016-2021?

[Sainternist]

If Clarkson is all it takes to be successful

What happened from 2016-2021?

After winning three premierships in three years, his list started to show its age. He handed over the reigns to Mitchell with the team in fairly good shape. Hawthorn seem to be rebuilding fairly well. A couple of years from now, they’ll probably have a new window.

[spert]

I would prefer a coach who punches holes in the walls of the coach's box after turnovers in the backline.

[Sainternist]

If the team flounders and doesn’t make finals after being 8-3 halfway through the season, the coach must be held accountable. Last year was a disaster. As much as I like Ratten, he still needs to prove he can take us to the next step. Time is running out for him. Unfortunately, at this stage, I don’t see much of a difference from his style of coaching to Alan Richardson’s.

If we aren’t to renew his contract, then it only seems logical to try and pursue Clarkson.

[Teflon]

Clarkson coached one of the greatest teams of all time. If he coached us he would coach against other sides as if we are Hawthorn. Then we would get more results like we had last night.
Ratten now knows who he can rely on and who he can't.
I would be of the mind that several players who played last night won't be there in 2023. They may play again this season but papers would be stamped.
Barring illness/virus, the way the team started and finished last night was completely unacceptable. To do it against a team who are as poor as anybody going around makes it doubly so.
And the fact that some of them were in the same team who did the exact same thing last year means that they can't learn from mistakes. Even down to the way Hind tore us apart was the same as last year.
Embarrassing.

We are still trying to play a small forward game plan aka 2020
That’s on the coach
Butler has been ordinary for a while
Our entry into 50 has been ordinary for a long time with zero change
Ratten has had 3 years and just NOW we think he knows enough to get it right and change?
I’m not convinced

[Teflon]

If Clarkson is all it takes to be successful

What happened from 2016-2021?

After winning three premierships in three years, his list started to show its age. He handed over the reigns to Mitchell with the team in fairly good shape. Hawthorn seem to be rebuilding fairly well. A couple of years from now, they’ll probably have a new window.

Agree - It’s like talking to children here sometimes..
FFS Clarkson also built Hawtborn up - do people forget that???
He has proven he can out in place a team to perform consistently
It’s not all coach but geezus what is our game plan last night ????? Someone tell me???
Collingwood in season 1 of a new coach have a better system - they will pass us while we tread water
Ratten has had 3 years
Do we need another 6 in the wilderness aka Richo to work out that may not be the answer

[Teflon]

If Clarkson is all it takes to be successful

What happened from 2016-2021?

Please show us , anyone here on SS where someone said “all you need to be successful is a good coach”
Stop sprouting obvious nonsense we know that
But a good coach can set the structure and standards fit consistent success - that includes demanding from recruiting the type player he wants
Clarkson built a side abd game plan around …oh and won a few flags along the way
Plus ….he has that Ross Lyon mongrel I believe good coaches need
Matthew had it Malthouse Sheedy Scott you need it
Can’t be all warm and cuddly
Anyway doesn’t matter they’ve done a 2-3 year with Ratten already
Only at St Kilda

[Yorkeys]

Essendon fielded a better side than us. Shiels, Stringer, Hinds and Draper were on missions. None of our players were particularly motivated.

We got effectively flogged in a pretty important game. Doubt has to be growing about player choice and motivation. Perhaps stating the obvious post games in a serious disappointed voice doesn't cut it. To keep choosing Butler is complete folly but Brett keeps doing it. Que? Ok to chip NWM he deserved it but by same standard Butler should have been dragged. Maybe Ratts is hostage to certain players and a failed strategy. Hope not. Big week coming. Hopefully players returning will help.

[Waltzing St Kilda]

The side on paper doesn't have as many guns as 2004 or 2009 but there are no absolute spuds. They should be playing better, period.

You can tell when the Saints are a genuine comtender.

There are exhilarating passages of transition play down the wing ending with a unning player belting it through the sticks.

You don't see that often with Ratts.

You see players stopping, propping, turning in circles, looking around for Hill, feeding it off to someone else who's also looking for Hill, then kicking in hope to the big guy with three defenders hanging off him.

[B.M]

So we are saying Clarkson was a successful coach because of his list?

And when his list was no longer as good, he got average results?

And when his list was poor, he got poor results?

Is that what we are saying?

Question
Does anyone think we have a top 4 list??

Look, I think Clarko is a good coach - due to him developing a game plan that was successful

I also think Ratten is very average (that’s just me)

But
I also think the coach is well down in the pecking order when it comes to success onfield

Players- win games
Recruiters - find players
List Managers - shape lists
Coaches - Instill a game plan

Question
Who is the better coach
Ratten or Rutten??

[SaintPav]

Ratten

Ben Rutten is a walking talking moron

[B.M]

So how do we explain last night?

[Teflon]

So we are saying Clarkson was a successful coach because of his list?

And when his list was no longer as good, he got average results?

And when his list was poor, he got poor results?

Is that what we are saying?

Question
Does anyone think we have a top 4 list??

Look, I think Clarko is a good coach - due to him developing a game plan that was successful

I also think Ratten is very average (that’s just me)

But
I also think the coach is well down in the pecking order when it comes to success onfield

Players- win games
Recruiters - find players
List Managers - shape lists
Coaches - Instill a game plan

Question
Who is the better coach
Ratten or Rutten??

Again stupid simplification
Off 1 game who is better ? Honestly
I am saying coach sets the tone
For team style of play
For team standards of what’s expected
For type of player he wants to execute his game plan
I B am saying Clarkson has 3 flags and Hawks haven’t been left in a terrible state
Your arguing an irrelevant point on how important the coach is with yourself

[Teflon]

So how do we explain last night?

Oh it decides everything
It decides definitely who was better coach
Actually while we are at simplistic analysis
I once saw Jack Steele have 1 better game than Dustin Martin therefore he’s a much better player
Geezus…

[SaintPav]

He might have a point.

I give up

[SaintPav]

The side on paper doesn't have as many guns as 2004 or 2009 but there are no absolute spuds. They should be playing better, period.

You can tell when the Saints are a genuine comtender.

There are exhilarating passages of transition play down the wing ending with a unning player belting it through the sticks.

You don't see that often with Ratts.

You see players stopping, propping, turning in circles, looking around for Hill, feeding it off to someone else who's also looking for Hill, then kicking in hope to the big guy with three defenders hanging off him.

A perfect summation of the Saints ‘game plan’

[B.M]

Teflon

I think what you’re saying is simplistic!

The coach sets the tone?

How the f*** do they do that?

Players set the tone, by the effort they give. If it takes a coach to inspire players efforts - you’ve got the wrong players.

[Saintmike65]

I really like Ratten - you can’t help but like him
But he just doesn’t have that edge is my honest view to command consistent performance
Ratten talks about “effort” I read (and I dislike him!) somewhere recently where Scott at Cats as a coach said he hates other coaches talking about “effort” all the time because that ought to be a given - not an ask
It’s why I never rated Grant Thomas - it was all attack footy with emotion eg “play fir jumper” or “give great effort”
Great coaches don’t ask for effort - that’s expected
What they do is put in place systems and a structured game plan that holds up u der finals pressure
Yes the players have to execute but if you don’t bring effort each week you don’t play
We have zero system in transition
Our forward entry is chaotic mess
Our forward play is “kick to King”
That tells me
1. Our game plan has serious flaws
2. We carry to many B grade players with poor decision/execution skills
We need a seriously skilled and respected senior AFL coach who has the edge to bring/address those things and demand consistent performance
Not a quarter here and there
I fear it’s already too late.

Totally agree Teflon. How many times last night did we see our players running through the middle with the ball and confused as to where to kick it. Marshall & King refuse to or have been told not to lead up at the ball, so the inevitable occurs. Essendon like Brisbane just stationed players around King and rebounded off him.

Marshall was playing on a guy 15cms shorter than him but wanted to engage in body contests. Who ever is coaching him this season, has him so out of form its embarrassing.

If Ratten bases his coaching philosophy on effort and commitment then why does he keep rewarding players who give zero each week? Ever since the Geelong game (losing Steele) the entire club has lost its way, which is extremely poor coaching IMO. No club or coach should be so reliant one player irs rubbish.

The sad part is that King leads consistently in match sim..sadly he doesn't seem to translate that into games.
I honestly believe we only have 1 quality assistant coach, Enright.
Lade and McGlynn may be out of their depth.
Look what Justin Longmuir did at Collingwood in 2018 as an assistant coach!
He was in charge of the game plan and defensive structures...took them to a grand final that they were very unlucky to lose...now look what he's doing with Freo.
Same with Adam Yze at Melbourne, he and Mark Williams have made a massive difference to Melbourne in game style and player development.

[Teflon]

I really like Ratten - you can’t help but like him
But he just doesn’t have that edge is my honest view to command consistent performance
Ratten talks about “effort” I read (and I dislike him!) somewhere recently where Scott at Cats as a coach said he hates other coaches talking about “effort” all the time because that ought to be a given - not an ask
It’s why I never rated Grant Thomas - it was all attack footy with emotion eg “play fir jumper” or “give great effort”
Great coaches don’t ask for effort - that’s expected
What they do is put in place systems and a structured game plan that holds up u der finals pressure
Yes the players have to execute but if you don’t bring effort each week you don’t play
We have zero system in transition
Our forward entry is chaotic mess
Our forward play is “kick to King”
That tells me
1. Our game plan has serious flaws
2. We carry to many B grade players with poor decision/execution skills
We need a seriously skilled and respected senior AFL coach who has the edge to bring/address those things and demand consistent performance
Not a quarter here and there
I fear it’s already too late.

Totally agree Teflon. How many times last night did we see our players running through the middle with the ball and confused as to where to kick it. Marshall & King refuse to or have been told not to lead up at the ball, so the inevitable occurs. Essendon like Brisbane just stationed players around King and rebounded off him.

Marshall was playing on a guy 15cms shorter than him but wanted to engage in body contests. Who ever is coaching him this season, has him so out of form its embarrassing.

If Ratten bases his coaching philosophy on effort and commitment then why does he keep rewarding players who give zero each week? Ever since the Geelong game (losing Steele) the entire club has lost its way, which is extremely poor coaching IMO. No club or coach should be so reliant one player irs rubbish.

The sad part is that King leads consistently in match sim..sadly he doesn't seem to translate that into games.
I honestly believe we only have 1 quality assistant coach, Enright.
Lade and McGlynn may be out of their depth.
Look what Justin Longmuir did at Collingwood in 2018 as an assistant coach!
He was in charge of the game plan and defensive structures...took them to a grand final that they were very unlucky to lose...now look what he's doing with Freo.
Same with Adam Yze at Melbourne, he and Mark Williams have made a massive difference to Melbourne in game style and player development.

100%
Trying to say coach has no impact is imbecilic
Of course they do and they DO set the tone
Do players choose themselves???? Or does the coach
Anyway, I read this (thank god for BF) and thought it summed up our crap game plan and what’s wrong with Ratten approach we’ll.

************

This is the same thing under Richo years, maximum effort on chasing tails, pressure, tackle, forwards run back to defend, run to the long bomb spot to clog up, all these efforts the smart/good team just need to hit targets, 1-2 marks in half back, 1 overlap run and 1 good kick into a leading forward, goal..

Our transition from the backline = side kick to the pocket, stop, long bomb to half back, out of bounds, win the ball, fumble, turnover, opposition kicks back into f50, we defend, rinse and repeat. Unless we have a clear out number, moving the ball from defence is slow and inefficiency. by the time we do get it forward of Centre, King has 3 on him, the their entire opposition team is stationed in our forward 50.. then you expect King to take a contested mark, or Butler/Higgins to fight their entire team to crumb… crazy crazy game plan. Ratts is not up to it.. Winning against lower sides only just masked our issues..

[Yorkeys]

We beat better than "lower sides".
It was done despite having only one capable forward. Once our rucks & mids lost form & untimely injuries bit we struggled/struggle.