Kent goes big

[SaintPav]

I suspect that along with Geary that this will be Kent's last season at the Saints.

Yes, and Hanners.

[skeptic]

Kent has been bloody good value for a guy secured with a 4th round pick.

The challenge is any team where Kent is a best 22 player is very likely to be a regular bottom 4 team.

He was a fringe player at an ordinary Melbourne and is now depth at St Kilda which is where he should be. Kent is not AFL standard consistently IMO, but can have an impact when he plays. Could be a handy medical sub in the right situation.

Has fallen to fan expectation a bit, perhaps some thought he’d go from fringe player to gun, but I’d guess the club would be very pleased with his output since crossing over.

Has been much better value than another higher profile left footer we recruited.

Popular clubman and seems a good guy around the place.
Has done well to get 10 seasons in the AFL system.

No problem with retaining him if he is on minimum wage as depth if the list demographic means we need a couple of senior experienced back ups to help guide the recruits at Sandi.

Sorry D.B, but nope, nope and nope.
He hasn't been bloody good value. He's played the occasional decent game - never dominated - amidst a sea of rubbish performances, his round 1 performance this year for example. Why on earth did they pick him? Did they think they were going to get something different,?

If the other left footer you're referring to is Hill, I beg to differ sir.

No way he should be retained on the list. We've seen what he has to offer. He makes crucial errors at crucial times in games. He occasionally does something that makes you go, "that was good", then he disappears again until four or five games later. Was extremely lucky that Richo saw something in him that many didn't and he got as many games as he did.

Good clubman, good to have around - so is Hannebery apparently, but it's not a reason to retain him.

I do agree though that a guy of his talent and abilities has done very well to he on an AFL list for 10 years. I'd prefer it if it wasn't ours.

I know I’m preaching to the choir here but absolutely spot on…

More and more I’m reading in these threads, rationalisations to keep and persevere with Kent relate to reasons that have little to do with actual performance

Tries hard, does role, good attitude, great fitness, good club man etc etc

What’s not on the list: great performance, turned the game, great individual effort, delivered under pressure… or this simple one… regularly kicking goals.

What kills me with Kent… his skill set is reliant on him getting into space to kick goals… either from uncontested marks or having a shot unopposed. That’s fine accept
A) He’s an unreliable shot
B) Poor mark
C) Can’t break free when he’s manned up

The evidence of this… he’s kicked stuff all goals since halfway through 2020.

Blows my mind that ppl don’t see it. Even his one goal vs Collingwood came from an error that handed him the ball on the goal line and he was unsighted then rest of the game other than to drop an unconstructed mark when it mattered that killed the come back for us.

And I could even live with that if like Long, he found ways to contribute when he’s not doing miracle things.

Can anybody honestly not see a major difference between Long doing pressure acts (chasing, big bumps, string tackles) and the other bows he has to his game (good disposal, sits on a HBF)…
Opposed to Kent who is unsighted whilst he’s “guarding space and chasing from a distance).

100% that level of performance is what needs to go from our football club. It’s what defined the Richo years… you cannot tolerate players that do 1 or 2 good plays and nothing else in 4 quarters of football.

It’s what killed us in the Watson era… Mitchell, Elliot, Plapp, Beethan, Davis, Heatley (not prime Heatley), Brownand a plethora of others… all had their fans and all did the odd brilliant thing but were otherwise categorically beaten.

[Ghost Like]

I do not think anyone has actually said he should be retained on our list for 2023.

[st.byron]

I do not think anyone has actually said he should be retained on our list for 2023.

D.B appears to suggest so.
"No problem with retaining him if he is on minimum wage as depth if the list demographic means we need a couple of senior experienced back ups to help guide the recruits at Sandi."

If that's the case put him on Sandy's list. Don't take up a spot for a potential genuine AFL standard player with someone who isn't.

Most of the serial mediocrity on our list has been weeded out, but some remains.

[Ghost Like]

I do not think anyone has actually said he should be retained on our list for 2023.

D.B appears to suggest so.
"No problem with retaining him if he is on minimum wage as depth if the list demographic means we need a couple of senior experienced back ups to help guide the recruits at Sandi."

If that's the case put him on Sandy's list. Don't take up a spot for a potential genuine AFL standard player with someone who isn't.

Most of the serial mediocrity on our list has been weeded out, but some remains.

I got the impression he was talking about this season. A very good call if he was & I'm guessing the shoe fits for Gears.

[D.B.Cooper]

No problem with retaining him if he is on minimum wage as depth if the list demographic means we need a couple of senior experienced back ups to help guide the recruits at Sandi.

The problem is that as our age profile has gotten younger that there are very few players on our list who are either not:
* AFL Standard
* Till have potential to get better.


With the mid-season draft we will add a player or two, and then at seasons end will also want to bring in kids or players from other clubs.

So if you keep Kent, it would mean for example letting go say Byrnes or Bytel go instead to fit in a newbie.


Geary will go.
Hannas you would imagine will go.
Paddy may go. He appears still capable of playing on


Joyce. Depth as a key defender. We may line up a better option, including someone who would be best 22.
Campbell. Is there for ruck depth. We may line up a better younger option. Plus Heath will be a year older


Lienert has shown enough to earn another year.
Hayes showed enough to be extended.
Allison has a contract to 2024. Not sure why......but it means despite his current form that he will be at the club in 2023.

Wood has been a solid team player. He may get squeezed out if we have no injuries but for mine is a much better choice to keep as a depth player than Kent.

Ben Long has also improved this year, and Long in particular due to where he can play has pushed Kent down the pecking order.


So given our current list there are not a lot of obvious candidates to make way for new blood.

As the draft order currently stands we have picks: 14, 32, 50, 86, 104

So you would expect that we will take at least 3 in the draft. Plus possibly changes in our rookies. You would also imagine that the club will be targeting an experienced player or two from other clubs.



So given the above, I would tend to think that unless Kent suddenly improves that he will likely be in the group not to be at the club next year.

we need a couple of senior experienced back ups to help guide the recruits at Sandi.

While true, this can also be done by such players being on Dandies list, rather than on a St Kilda list.

Indeed this is what most of the other clubs do that the Saints have not done enough with Sandi. ie That there be a solid core of good VFL regulars.

Badly worded post.

I was attempting to write that I did not have an issue with him being retained this season (but at that staged preferred to retain Lonie than Kent) but not suggesting he should be retained for 2023.

Was much more critical of recruitment of Frawley & McKernan than Kent.

Never been a fan of Kent but still believe he’s been good value for what we gave up for him, particularly in a direct comparison to Mr Hannebery.

[D.B.Cooper]

I do not think anyone has actually said he should be retained on our list for 2023.

D.B appears to suggest so.
"No problem with retaining him if he is on minimum wage as depth if the list demographic means we need a couple of senior experienced back ups to help guide the recruits at Sandi."

If that's the case put him on Sandy's list. Don't take up a spot for a potential genuine AFL standard player with someone who isn't.

Most of the serial mediocrity on our list has been weeded out, but some remains.

No, badly worded on my part.
I meant I had no issue with his retention in 2022, though would have preferred Lonie.
I don't think he should be retained in 2023 and is only depth as he is not consistently AFL standard.

The left footer I referred was Hannebery, pretty sure Bradley is a natural right footer.

I still stand by the comment he has provided good value for what was given up for him, a late 4th rounder.
Better value than Hannebery, Brown, Frawley, Mckernan and a few other speculative picks.

Never been a fan of Kent and reiterate if he is in our best 22 we are a bottom 4 team as he has always been a fringe player, however to suggest he has not been worthwhile or contributed in his 4 seasons at the club is overly harsh and inaccurate IMO.

[SAINT-LEE]

It's a tough spot....

Our smaller ~ medium sized forwards are not performing well and have not for a few years.

Dan Butler is having one of the worst seasons statistically of his career, and has been declining since his first outstanding 2020 season.

Kent has always been very average statistically, compared to other starting forwards he's not a chump but certainly not best 22. He can tackle and feed assists when he's firing but seems to only get hot when he played his old team the first time, kicking 3 goals....since his well has run dry and injuries abound!

Thank God Higgins has grown into a sharp shooter or we'd be 3 - 3 out of the eight.

Hill is very good with assists and a few goals in a high forward position, immensely more run than Kent or Butler ( at present though both have had the wheels on display in seasons past).
Kent can make some key tackles at times but definitely isn't good with disposals to advantage.

I know we need the best of what we have in support players on field, I'd rather give a young player time than Kent or Butler at present.

[saintsRrising]

It's a tough spot....

Our smaller ~ medium sized forwards are not performing well and have not for a few years.

What?

Higgins, Gresham and Butler are all this season doing what our coaches want them to do very well.

Dan Butler is having one of the worst seasons statistically of his career, and has been declining since his first outstanding 2020 season.

You need to look at the right statistics for his role in the team.


Dan's role is different to that of Higgins or Gresham.

He is playing as a defensive pressure forward and in the AFL this season he ranks as No 2 in pressure.

Forward half pressure points

1. Jamie Elliott (Collingwood) - 48.0
2. Dan Butler (St Kilda) - 41.7
3. Callum Brown (Collingwood) - 38.1
4. Sam Switkowski (Fremantle) - 37.4
5. Nick Holman (Gold Coast) - 36.7
6. Lachie Schultz (Fremantle) - 33.6
7. Kysaiah Pickett (Melbourne) - 33.3
8. Alex Neal-Bullen (Melbourne) - 32.8
9. Beau McCreery (Collingwood) - 32.6
10. Dylan Moore (Hawthorn) - 32.5

Tackles

1. Isaac Heeney (Sydney) - 6.2
2. Jamie Elliott (Collingwood) - 5.5
3. Alex Neal-Bullen (Melbourne) - 5.2
4. Stephen Coniglio (GWS) - 5.2
5. Callum Brown (Collingwood) - 5.0
6. Shaun Higgins (Geelong) - 4.7
7. Dan Butler (St Kilda) - 4.7
8. Sam Switkowski (Fremantle) - 4.3
9. Beau McCreery (Collingwood) - 4.3
10. Jamaine Jones (West Coast) - 4.3

Butler has laid the third most number of tackles at the Saints this year. He did likewise in 2021.

2022 St Kilda Total Tackles Leaders (Minimum 2 Games Played)
Rank Name Games Total
1 Jack Steele 6 41
2 Brad Crouch 6 38
3 Daniel Butler 6 28
4 Rowan Marshall 6 23
5 Jack Sinclair 6 19
6 Jade Gresham 6 18
7 Sebastian Ross 6 16
7 Josh Battle 6 16

So Butler is performing well in the role assigned to him.
His job is to cause turnovers and to help keep the ball in our forward half.


The Saints are going well so far this season as we are doing the team aspects very well.

[D.B.Cooper]

It's a tough spot....

Our smaller ~ medium sized forwards are not performing well and have not for a few years.

What?

Higgins, Gresham and Butler are all this season doing what our coaches want them to do very well.

Dan Butler is having one of the worst seasons statistically of his career, and has been declining since his first outstanding 2020 season.

You need to look at the right statistics for his role in the team.


Dan's role is different to that of Higgins or Gresham.

He is playing as a defensive pressure forward and in the AFL this season he ranks as No 2 in pressure.

Forward half pressure points

1. Jamie Elliott (Collingwood) - 48.0
2. Dan Butler (St Kilda) - 41.7
3. Callum Brown (Collingwood) - 38.1
4. Sam Switkowski (Fremantle) - 37.4
5. Nick Holman (Gold Coast) - 36.7
6. Lachie Schultz (Fremantle) - 33.6
7. Kysaiah Pickett (Melbourne) - 33.3
8. Alex Neal-Bullen (Melbourne) - 32.8
9. Beau McCreery (Collingwood) - 32.6
10. Dylan Moore (Hawthorn) - 32.5

Tackles

1. Isaac Heeney (Sydney) - 6.2
2. Jamie Elliott (Collingwood) - 5.5
3. Alex Neal-Bullen (Melbourne) - 5.2
4. Stephen Coniglio (GWS) - 5.2
5. Callum Brown (Collingwood) - 5.0
6. Shaun Higgins (Geelong) - 4.7
7. Dan Butler (St Kilda) - 4.7
8. Sam Switkowski (Fremantle) - 4.3
9. Beau McCreery (Collingwood) - 4.3
10. Jamaine Jones (West Coast) - 4.3

Butler has laid the third most number of tackles at the Saints this year. He did likewise in 2021.

2022 St Kilda Total Tackles Leaders (Minimum 2 Games Played)
Rank Name Games Total
1 Jack Steele 6 41
2 Brad Crouch 6 38
3 Daniel Butler 6 28
4 Rowan Marshall 6 23
5 Jack Sinclair 6 19
6 Jade Gresham 6 18
7 Sebastian Ross 6 16
7 Josh Battle 6 16

So Butler is performing well in the role assigned to him.
His job is to cause turnovers and to help keep the ball in our forward half.


The Saints are going well so far this season as we are doing the team aspects very well.

Great post, one reason we are travelling so well this season is it appears (from the outside and what you hear emanating from the club) that everyone is buying into the team first ethic and Butlers contribution here would be well acknowledged internally.

Would Higgins be getting off the chain and running forward to get some of his goals from turnover if the tacklers like Steele, Crouch, Butler etc were not doing their job.

Watch Butler live and he is a power runner both ways.
May not to the klm's per game of some others but I'd bet his distance is covered a very high pace.

[SAINT-LEE]

It's a tough spot....

Our smaller ~ medium sized forwards are not performing well and have not for a few years.

What?

Higgins, Gresham and Butler are all this season doing what our coaches want them to do very well.

Dan Butler is having one of the worst seasons statistically of his career, and has been declining since his first outstanding 2020 season.

You need to look at the right statistics for his role in the team.


Dan's role is different to that of Higgins or Gresham.

He is playing as a defensive pressure forward and in the AFL this season he ranks as No 2 in pressure.

Forward half pressure points

1. Jamie Elliott (Collingwood) - 48.0
2. Dan Butler (St Kilda) - 41.7
3. Callum Brown (Collingwood) - 38.1
4. Sam Switkowski (Fremantle) - 37.4
5. Nick Holman (Gold Coast) - 36.7
6. Lachie Schultz (Fremantle) - 33.6
7. Kysaiah Pickett (Melbourne) - 33.3
8. Alex Neal-Bullen (Melbourne) - 32.8
9. Beau McCreery (Collingwood) - 32.6
10. Dylan Moore (Hawthorn) - 32.5

Tackles

1. Isaac Heeney (Sydney) - 6.2
2. Jamie Elliott (Collingwood) - 5.5
3. Alex Neal-Bullen (Melbourne) - 5.2
4. Stephen Coniglio (GWS) - 5.2
5. Callum Brown (Collingwood) - 5.0
6. Shaun Higgins (Geelong) - 4.7
7. Dan Butler (St Kilda) - 4.7
8. Sam Switkowski (Fremantle) - 4.3
9. Beau McCreery (Collingwood) - 4.3
10. Jamaine Jones (West Coast) - 4.3

Butler has laid the third most number of tackles at the Saints this year. He did likewise in 2021.

2022 St Kilda Total Tackles Leaders (Minimum 2 Games Played)
Rank Name Games Total
1 Jack Steele 6 41
2 Brad Crouch 6 38
3 Daniel Butler 6 28
4 Rowan Marshall 6 23
5 Jack Sinclair 6 19
6 Jade Gresham 6 18
7 Sebastian Ross 6 16
7 Josh Battle 6 16

So Butler is performing well in the role assigned to him.
His job is to cause turnovers and to help keep the ball in our forward half.


The Saints are going well so far this season as we are doing the team aspects very well.

I didn't actually post this, but ....I can shred your stats with my stats if you want?

AFL COM lists Dan Butlers tackling as 17th in the AFL with a 4.9 AVG. The player in 7th is Ben Keays with a 6.0 AVG.


I can't list 30 stats where his performance in his role is considered below average according to the AFL.
That said I personally DONT think the forwards are doing great or doing bad. Just decent. Gresham is improving and still getting up to speed, Butler IS NOT playing in a forward role, Higgins is playing good ( as my brother in law posing as me stated correctly).

[saintsRrising]

I didn't actually post this, but ....I can shred your stats with my stats if you want?

Well information is best if shared.

AFL COM lists Dan Butlers tackling as 17th in the AFL with a 4.9 AVG. The player in 7th is Ben Keays with a 6.0 AVG.

My tackle comparison was of small forwards. Not all players.

You are listing a comparison of ALL players, and not just small forwards.



So your data just reinforces my point.

Small forwards get near the ball a lot less than mids do. So have the ability to tackle less.

So if Butler tackling is the 17th in the AFL out of all the players then he is tackling very well for a player playing as a small forward is he not?

Ben Keays a is a mid. What position did the other 16 players play in. Mainly mids? I don't see how it is relevant to his role to say he is playing bad because his tackle count is less than mids.
Compare him to players performing his role.

Otherwise you might as well say Butler is s*** because he has no Hit Outs.


That is why my first tackle comparison was of players playing as small forwards. Comparing apples with apples.

The second one I posted was against players at St Kilda, just as an additional data point. Note how those above him at Stkilda were both mids.

I can't list 30 stats where his performance in his role is considered below average according to the AFL.

Hard to discuss then if you do not post them. Hopefully all those 30 stats were comparing him to other pressure forwards like mine were.
If they are just against all players, then they are not really relevant.
If it just goals, then it is also not fully relevant as kicking goals is not Butler's prime role. He is yes there to kick goals, but his prime role is to create opportunities for others to kick goals, including by causing turnovers and holding the ball in our forward half.


Also on the various football shows they all talk about Butler's forward pressure as being very good. The stats I actually posted support this.

That said I personally DONT think the forwards are doing great or doing bad. Just decent. Gresham is improving and still getting up to speed, Butler IS NOT playing in a forward role,

My POINT was Butler is playing as a defensive pressure small forward. Butler's role is different than that of Higgins or Gresham.

You are comparing apples with oranges.

Butler when he joined the Saints was in a more offensive role. Last season his role changed.

Higgins is playing good

Yes in most games he has been. But his role in the team is different to Butler.

Sinclair has only kicked one goal this year. Does that make him a bad player?

( as my brother in law posing as me stated correctly).

Odd comment. Maybe your BIL should get his own account?



PS Butler's last 2 games have not been his best. But overall for the season he has played well in the role assigned to him to play.

[SAINT-LEE]

Yes, Butler's playing so amazing. We all see that.
Less scoring, less one percenters, disposals down, effective kicks down, disposals to advantage, goal assists down...but he's keeping defenders from defending in the forward line. Ok.

You quoted one or three stats and claimed he was playing better than ever, whilst my brother in law ( who had borrowed my phone whilst I was unwell posted like a jackass)....but he wasn't completely wrong in saying Butler was performing worse AS A SMALL FORWARD. ....not a defender.

He's scoring less, less efficient with disposals, not giving the ball to teammates to advantage as much, etc etc etc ....that's HIS point. Seems fair.

I'm not overly excited about saying he's unworthy of starting weekly, I think the team has played generally ok, we haven't had any real competition.

We've beaten only one team in the top 8.
I'll reserve my personal judgement on Butler until I see the Melbourne game.

How do you reckon Butler did against Port? With 2 of his massive 8 disposals effective and 6 decent tackles ( 3rd best for the Saints in the game)...
Zero 1% 's , no goal assists, no scoring ( I think defending forwards spending 70% of the game forward ARE permitted to score still, right?)

But....he did get high scores as you rightly point out for Champion Data's deceptive scoring of "pressure" which includes "harassing" , "chasing" and "corralling" none of which means he touched the opponent nor the ball. He chased, almost caught, provided pressure, got in the way of opponents path...

I'm not saying he isn't providing a needed role but it's a stretch calling him a small forward but then refusing to include the most important aspects of a small forwards role ( scoring, marking, effective disposals, goal assists).

He either is really a defender or a forward.

I was in hospital, my brother in law dropped his phone whilst on the ferry into the ocean. He borrowed my phone as I was not using it. I had no idea he'd post to Saintsational or that he even read the forum, ever. We'd never discussed it.

I don't concur with his two posts on here but I do understand his point that Butler isn't playing as a small forward very well. I personally hope all the lads smash it and we win the fecking granny.

That's my position. I don't give a feck about your stats or my stats...not in view of the Saints winning the whole enchilada.

So, keep posting stats, I'll stop so you can have a win and we can move on to focus on our Grand Final Party planning.