Ben Long versus Brad Hill

[Scollop]

Ben Long’s Disposal Efficiency at age 23 is better than what Brad Hill’s DE was at the same age

I thought I’d do a comparison of Long’s 2020 year versus Hill when Brad was also 23. So in 2016 when Hill was playing at Hawthorn he certainly had more possessions per game, but just look at how Brad gets his possessions. Uncontested and basically handball receives. Ben had more marks per game and his possessions were mainly contested.

If 2022 Ben Long puts on the number 8 jumper and his team mates are “told” to get the football in Longs hands…would we better off? Personally, I’d have Ben as high half forward and play him on an opposite flank to Billings

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... fopt2=2016

Brad’s effective disposals are only 25% better than Ben even though Brad is the beneficiary of a lot more receives. If Ben was given the footy more often he’d be one of our most dangerous and efficient distributors.

In 2020 Brett Ratten played Ben Long in defense…as we all know. Ben was 23.

We’ve had some of our better kicks playing on a HB flank including Clark, Coffield, Sinclair and Hill. Everyone accepts that these guys are good kicks.

Why is it that people’s perception of Long is different?

[Vortex]

I will invoke and transcend my inner Dennis Denuto and say "it's the vibe"

Not sure they are in the same conversation for anything, apples and cumquats.

For what its worth I hope he gets a run this week before another skinny kid who's never played a game of AFL.

[The_Dud]

Can we somehow put Long’s heart in Hill’s body?

[Scollop]

Isaac Smith (ex Hawthorn and now at Geelong) ….at 23 years of age versus Ben Long at 23

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... fopt2=2011

Ben Long at 23 versus Shane Edwards at 23…take note of each players ‘effective disposals’

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... fopt2=2011

[Scollop]

In 2020 most people would agree that Ben Paton and Nick Coffield and Cal Wilkie had good years right? How do Ben's averages and total disposals stack up against his peers that year? https://www.saints.com.au/news/829262/b ... ers-emerge

[Vortex]

Isaac Smith (ex Hawthorn and now at Geelong) ….at 23 years of age versus Ben Long at 23

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... fopt2=2011

Ben Long at 23 versus Shane Edwards at 23…take note of each players ‘effective disposals’

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... fopt2=2011

Connoly apparently is one of the best kicks we have, how does he stack up against Long? Maybe Connolly should come in this week.

[spert]

Long is probably one more suspension away from having an uncertain AFL career . He has talent that I don't think has been utilised, but unless he works on self-displine, he a is a liability to his team. If you you want to be a tough guy on the field, you also have to be smart about it- you don't consolidate a senior position by sitting in the stands.

[Scollop]

Long is probably one more suspension away from having an uncertain AFL career . He has talent that I don't think has been utilised, but unless he works on self-displine, he a is a liability to his team. If you you want to be a tough guy on the field, you also have to be smart about it- you don't consolidate a senior position by sitting in the stands.

Lucky you weren’t deciding people’s careers or else Stevie Baker wouldn’t have got a game as far as your concerned

[Scollop]

Isaac Smith (ex Hawthorn and now at Geelong) ….at 23 years of age versus Ben Long at 23

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... fopt2=2011

Ben Long at 23 versus Shane Edwards at 23…take note of each players ‘effective disposals’

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... fopt2=2011

Connoly apparently is one of the best kicks we have, how does he stack up against Long? Maybe Connolly should come in this week.

Good idea. Play them both

[SaintPav]

Very interesting analysis. Thanks

Long gets his chance this week, and hopefully he grabs it.

Gotta wonder what is going through their minds regarding #25.

[B.M]

Some players get better

Some don’t


Hill was a triple premiership player at 23

[Teflon]

Cage fight???

Hill would give him a damn good scratching!

[mr six o'clock]

How does Ben's disposal efficiency stack up against a box of kraft macaroni and cheese ?

[Gershwin]

Ben Long’s Disposal Efficiency at age 23 is better than what Brad Hill’s DE was at the same age

I thought I’d do a comparison of Long’s 2020 year versus Hill when Brad was also 23. So in 2016 when Hill was playing at Hawthorn he certainly had more possessions per game, but just look at how Brad gets his possessions. Uncontested and basically handball receives. Ben had more marks per game and his possessions were mainly contested.

If 2022 Ben Long puts on the number 8 jumper and his team mates are “told” to get the football in Longs hands…would we better off? Personally, I’d have Ben as high half forward and play him on an opposite flank to Billings

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... fopt2=2016

Brad’s effective disposals are only 25% better than Ben even though Brad is the beneficiary of a lot more receives. If Ben was given the footy more often he’d be one of our most dangerous and efficient distributors.

In 2020 Brett Ratten played Ben Long in defense…as we all know. Ben was 23.

We’ve had some of our better kicks playing on a HB flank including Clark, Coffield, Sinclair and Hill. Everyone accepts that these guys are good kicks.

Why is it that people’s perception of Long is different?

Don’t get seduced by statistics Scollop.
A kick backwards in defense is counted as an effective disposal but is easy and achieves nothing.
Trust what you see and I see Long struggle to get possessions and make poor decisions.
Perhaps there is still room for improvement. I hope so.

[cwrcyn]

Long is a an aggressive B grade fumbler. To rate him a better player than Hill is just nonsense. Long will not become a top level AFL player. That's just wishful thinking. He's the same age as Gresham and has not had the injuries that Gresham has had. They were selected just a half a dozen selections apart in their draft years. Gresham, like Hill, is way ahead of Long in talent

[spert]

Long is probably one more suspension away from having an uncertain AFL career . He has talent that I don't think has been utilised, but unless he works on self-displine, he a is a liability to his team. If you you want to be a tough guy on the field, you also have to be smart about it- you don't consolidate a senior position by sitting in the stands.

Lucky you weren’t deciding people’s careers or else Stevie Baker wouldn’t have got a game as far as your concerned

Baker had his moments, but was a good player- better than Long.

[Scollop]

Ben Long’s Disposal Efficiency at age 23 is better than what Brad Hill’s DE was at the same age

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... fopt2=2016

Don’t get seduced by statistics Scollop.
A kick backwards in defense is counted as an effective disposal but is easy and achieves nothing.

What a croc. How do you think they pick the All Australian squad each year? Do you think they base their nominations on the ‘vibe’ or ‘trust what you see’ as you say. ‘Trust what you see’ is really ‘trust your perception’ without looking at the data and statistics.

I’ve compared Ben against his team mates in the backline so why don’t we compare his disposal efficiency against other teams and other players. If the Saints use Ben as a distributor and he gets as many receives as other players he’d have higher possession numbers and St Kilda would be better off.

The following were named in the All Australian Squad over the last few years and they play in the backline

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... fopt2=2020

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... fopt2=2020

Everyone knows that Collingwood played a very defensive style under Buckley.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... fopt2=2020

Only Howe had better DE, but surprisingly his clangers per game were higher than Bens

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... fopt2=2020

[Scollop]

To rate him a better player than Hill is just nonsense.

I’ll forget about the multi faceted nonsense that you wrote and just reply to the above

The purpose of the thread was to focus in narrowly on what people believe to be Hill’s value to the team apart from his endurance, and that’s his kicking and disposal accuracy.

I never claimed that Long is a better player than Hill. I was trying to open up people’s minds and we need to focus on the now and the value that each player could potentially provide. Long played a full game in the intra club in February. Fact is…he deserved a spot in the round 1 team based on his pre season form

Anyhow. There is absolutely f*** all chance that I will sway those who have already made their mind up!!

[takeaway]

To rate him a better player than Hill is just nonsense.

I’ll forget about the multi faceted nonsense that you wrote and just reply to the above

The purpose of the thread was to focus in narrowly on what people believe to be Hill’s value to the team apart from his endurance, and that’s his kicking and disposal accuracy.

I never claimed that Long is a better player than Hill. I was trying to open up people’s minds and we need to focus on the now and the value that each player could potentially provide. Long played a full game in the intra club in February. Fact is…he deserved a spot in the round 1 team based on his pre season form

Anyhow. There is absolutely f*** all chance that I will sway those who have already made their mind up!!

Pretty easy to make one's mind up if you are trying to argue Long over Hill. You just have to watch football.

Waste of time using solely disposal efficiency in these scenarios, in fact in any scenario.Where does the efficient disposal go? Forward, sideways or backwards? Lot easier to chalk up an efficient disposal kicking sideways or back. In your comparison Hill averaged far more metres gained than Long, so what does that tell you?

Even a closer look at your stats sample doesn’t bear scrutiny - over half Long’s disposals were handballs, where the percentage of efficient disposals is far higher than kicks. Hill had the same handballs as Long, but double the kicks, and still managed a very good DE rate. Hill’s stats more impressive, and they continued in subsequent years.

Hill is way ahead of Long. Hill gets tagged, or at least closely watched every game, because he can be very damaging. Can Long get to that level? I doubt it. Long faces a big challenge this year, first he has to get in the team, then he has to have a very good and consistent year, or, with his contact expiring, he may not be at the Saints in 2023. I’d take a 3rd rounder.

Despite the above, with the players we currently have out, I would prefer Long in the side as a defensive forward in lieu of Kent (just).

[Scollop]

The team is better off when there isn’t a narrow focus on ‘give it to Hill’… and as far as ‘watching football’ is concerned mr takaway, I watch an unhealthy amount…and have been watching an unhealthy amount ever since Optus Vision started back in 1995-1996….and in the long-run….we’ll see who is right about Long

If you want to highlight the negatives in a player, that’s easy. I can string off negatives about plenty of blokes who are getting a game ahead of Ben Long. Based on the intra club game and his preseason form he should be in the team.

spert made a good point about ‘suspensions’ and self discipline. That is what put Ben in the bad books and people can’t see past a few incidents that occurred in 2020 and want to just ignore the assets and the positive attributes.

Let’s utilise Long’s kicking skill. The coaches at St Kilda like Ratten (who plonked Ben on a half back flank because of his accuracy by foot) as well as Batchelor and others have spoken of Ben’s ability to bring his team mates into play. He will kick to the advantage of our forwards as well as our best kicks in the team

[Vortex]

The team is better off when there isn’t a narrow focus on ‘give it to Hill’

If you want to highlight the negatives in a player, that’s easy. I can string off negatives about plenty of blokes who are getting a game ahead of Ben Long. Based on the intra club game and his preseason form he should be in the team.

spert made a good point about ‘suspensions’ and self discipline. That is what put Ben in the bad books and people can’t see past a few incidents that occurred in 2020 and want to just ignore the assets and the positive attributes.

Let’s utilise Long’s kicking skill. The coaches at St Kilda like Ratten (who plonked Ben on a half back flank because of his accuracy by foot) as well as Batchelor and others have spoken of Ben’s ability to bring his team mates into play. He will kick to the advantage of our forwards as well as our best kicks in the team

I really hope he gets selected this week, and on selection this week, it's going to be fascinating what changes the selectors make but if we debut another skinny first game over Long then it really will raise questions about what has happened and why has he dropped so far out of the best 22.

[takeaway]

The team is better off when there isn’t a narrow focus on ‘give it to Hill’… and as far as ‘watching football’ is concerned mr takaway, I watch an unhealthy amount…and have been watching an unhealthy amount ever since Optus Vision started back in 1995-1996….and in the long-run….we’ll see who is right about Long

If you want to highlight the negatives in a player, that’s easy. I can string off negatives about plenty of blokes who are getting a game ahead of Ben Long. Based on the intra club game and his preseason form he should be in the team.

spert made a good point about ‘suspensions’ and self discipline. That is what put Ben in the bad books and people can’t see past a few incidents that occurred in 2020 and want to just ignore the assets and the positive attributes.

Let’s utilise Long’s kicking skill. The coaches at St Kilda like Ratten (who plonked Ben on a half back flank because of his accuracy by foot) as well as Batchelor and others have spoken of Ben’s ability to bring his team mates into play. He will kick to the advantage of our forwards as well as our best kicks in the team

Yes, binge watching can cause distortions and prejudice. Long is a reasonable kick, but nothing exceptional. He is more of an extractor than a receiver, and I can think of plenty of other players who are better suited to be a receiving target the Long. Billings, Connolly, Byrnes, plenty of others.
Anyway, even if Long was a fantastic kick, he has never been a high kick accumulator, and I don't think that would change much if they tried to get it to him more. Move on.

[Scollop]

Yes, binge watching can cause distortions and prejudice.

First you assume I don’t watch football or that I should watch more and then you shift gear.

It’s ok to have an opinion, but when you repeatedly make up stuff and try and belittle someone, it weakens your argument and just points out that you are a knob.

You are so full of it mate. Most times you’ve argued strongly about something you’ve been wrong in the long term

[Scollop]

Saints had an Intra club where All players got an equal chance and equal opportunity. The thread and reports from Beno, Impatient Sainter, Ottiman and others were positive on Ben Long. He outperformed other forwards, but I watched the whole match and I still think he should be used as a distributor up the ground.

http://saintsational.net/viewtopic.php? ... 8#p1939408

There were also plenty of negative comments from several posters including in the video from a guy who has a youtube channel, and they pointed out the stuff ups and bad habits of Kent, Higgins and Butler. Nothings changed and these guys (except Kent) seem to get picked each week. No wonder we have threads like ‘Saints in no mans land’ and We are closer to a spoon than a premiership

For about 2 weeks after the intra club, the forum had 3 threads with Joe, Harry and Johnny C Lately all telling us Long’s career is in the balance. Hey…they were all right too. He played about 1 quarter against Carlton, was left out of the Essendon practice game, and was not picked for Round 1

[Templar]

Ben Long comes across as a natural footballer as if he was born with a ball in his hands.

His aggression, intensity and desperation is refreshing and we need more of that in the team. Fierce tackler, shepherder, fast, fearless, good mark and kick.

The negative is the undisciplined stuff when he is on the end of a bad call from the umpire or is rubbed up the wrong way etc.

A bit nervous on the set shot but I think that could partly be because of the anxiety of trying to keep a spot in the side.

If I was Ratten I would be telling Ben: Your in the 22. Go out there, enjoy, and show us your stuff. But if you give away one 50 you're dropped for next week.

I think that would keep his mind on the need to be disciplined while still giving him the confidence to go out there and blitz.

I'm a fan and without the benefit of inside knowledge (training attitude, medical, following instructions etc) I would like to see Ben Long named every week.