When is a rebuild not a real rebuild?

[SunnyErnie]

When you decide to trade away a lot of your top National Draft picks for Hill and Hannas. And, to start bringing in FA's before being a top 4 team.

Discuss!!!

[Scollop]

We started the crap recruiting under Richo. He went and recruited Nathan Brown at the end of 2017. Brown was dropped a few times from the seniors in his last year at Collingwood, so we wanted a guy as our key position Defender who was struggling and playing reserves football.

Nice guy Nath and great team guy, who I thought played well in 2019, but I still think it was the wrong decision to recruit a bloke in the twilight of their career when we weren’t a proven side and we still hadn’t made finals

We then continued to over rate our list with the recruitment of Hannebery ( thanks Simon) and then with Sam Rowe the following year and of course we continued the theme last year under Lethlean with Abbott, McKernan and Frawley.

Heres a funny (or perhaps sad for Saints members and fans) and a pretty foretelling post from mad saint guy regarding Cho’s preferred starting 18. 14 of them are no longer at our club or were delisted or retired

http://saintsational.net/viewtopic.php? ... 8#p1778028

[MC Gusto]

We traded a first round for hill

We traded late 2nds early thirds for Hannas

Second for Higgins

Nothing for crouch


Etc

The only first rounder we have traded was for Hill, the rest cost us very little draft wise, it’s more about cap and list profile.

[Scollop]

It’s also about lost opportunities. The guys we brought in were past it. They weren’t hungry and they weren’t good enough and they deny a list spot for a younger bloke. They also deny games experience to your other young players that are already on the list.

It’s about having a strong development culture. It’s about getting the right people into the club including assistant coaches and backing your coaches to get young players up to scratch.

In the link above in my previous post there is a discussion regarding Josh Battle in that same thread. We could have had him playing in the backline a lot earlier and learning his craft a lot earlier

http://saintsational.net/viewtopic.php? ... 4#p1778004

[Teflon]

When you decide to trade away a lot of your top National Draft picks for Hill and Hannas. And, to start bringing in FA's before being a top 4 team.

Discuss!!!

When it’s failed.

[Impatient Sainter]

I dont blame the club for trading in or recruiting mature aged players, they just selected the wrong players. For years our list was one of the worst in the competition we simply had to go after top up players to fill the holes. Its like our club has no ability to predict future trends in the game or what is needed for our list. We have needed elite midfielders for decades and look at the players that have changed clubs in recent years, its enough to make you cry.

We needed players who are good kicks, but to target a completely outside flakey wingman in Hill was simply the wrong player. Then to pay what we did in the trade and salary was ridiculous - Fremantle and Hills manager preyed on our desperation. While Melbourne got Langdon for half the money and a 2nd round draft pick. Saints were beating their chest at the time, but in reality it could not have been a more faulty decision.

Then you add the Hannebery trade before that, granted he didnt cost a lot at the trade table because the Swans needed salary cap relief. The club hasnt had any luck with his body but the entire AFL knew his body was shot before the move. Since adding those two then because of our cap squeeze we have missed out on recruiting a number of genuine mids.

There has been some sucess stories and we dont complain about players like Steele, Membrey, Ryder & Howard or the recruitment of Wilkie, Highmore, Marshall or Hayes. But again in that period we have recruited 1 genuine midfielder who has a sound body. I have been a fan of Gallagher & Lethlean but they pulled the wrong levers with Hill & Hannebery and have a lot of lost ground to make up as a result.

So in reality we are 2 or 3 A grade mids and another quality ruckman (Ryder replacement) away from a competitive list.

[Ghost Like]

Have you been here before SunnyErnie???

That "Discuss???" seems awfully familiar.

A reincarnation perhaps?

[Scollop]

Have you been here before SunnyErnie???

That "Discuss???" seems awfully familiar.

A reincarnation perhaps?

Ted?

[saintsRrising]

When you decide to trade away a lot of your top National Draft picks for Hill and Hannas. And, to start bringing in FA's before being a top 4 team.

Discuss!!!

But Kent was a truly amazing pickup. Discuss!!!

[SunnyErnie]

I dont blame the club for trading in or recruiting mature aged players, they just selected the wrong players. For years our list was one of the worst in the competition we simply had to go after top up players to fill the holes. Its like our club has no ability to predict future trends in the game or what is needed for our list. We have needed elite midfielders for decades and look at the players that have changed clubs in recent years, its enough to make you cry.

We needed players who are good kicks, but to target a completely outside flakey wingman in Hill was simply the wrong player. Then to pay what we did in the trade and salary was ridiculous - Fremantle and Hills manager preyed on our desperation. While Melbourne got Langdon for half the money and a 2nd round draft pick. Saints were beating their chest at the time, but in reality it could not have been a more faulty decision.

Then you add the Hannebery trade before that, granted he didnt cost a lot at the trade table because the Swans needed salary cap relief. The club hasnt had any luck with his body but the entire AFL knew his body was shot before the move. Since adding those two then because of our cap squeeze we have missed out on recruiting a number of genuine mids.

There has been some sucess stories and we dont complain about players like Steele, Membrey, Ryder & Howard or the recruitment of Wilkie, Highmore, Marshall or Hayes. But again in that period we have recruited 1 genuine midfielder who has a sound body. I have been a fan of Gallagher & Lethlean but they pulled the wrong levers with Hill & Hannebery and have a lot of lost ground to make up as a result.

So in reality we are 2 or 3 A grade mids and another quality ruckman (Ryder replacement) away from a competitive list.

I 100% do blame the club for picking up mature players. This strategy should only be used once you are a top 4 team. This is the exact reason why we are in this predicament. Rebuild properly through the draft and take your medicine. Once you have become a top 4 side, then and only then look at mature players!!!

Just watch North Melbourne. On their current trajectory, they will zoom past us very soon!!!!!!!!!

[cwrcyn]

2019 was all about trying to address the debacle under Pelchen and Elshaug. We had boxed ourselves into a corner and were heading south big time. Something had to be done. In 2019 we got Howard, Hill, Jones, Ryder, Butler, Byrnes, and Connolly. Now, I know we gave up picks, but I think that's a pretty good outcome. That's seven players that are AFL standard. In any single year, a club does well to get two.


From 2018 onward, we have secured these players. A far cry from the shocking years under Pelchen and Elshaug

King.....great selection
Bytel ....highly touted to go top ten in the draft before his injury
Hannebery...Hmmm big fail due to injuries
Wilkie...great selection
Howard...Solid 200cm fullback...very difficult to secure key defenders of this height
Ryder...steak knives bonus in Howard deal. When fit, has been a star
Butler... gave up pick 53 for him. Pretty good deal for us
Hill .... fine player, we just don't use him well
Jones... effectively a swap for Josh Bruce....fair trade
Byrnes...in July of his draft year he was rated in top 15. We got him at pick 52. Still think he'll be a player
Connolly.. second last pick in the 2019 draft...has shown very promising signs
Crouch...a freebie...still has 4 years of football in him
Higgins... got him for a second rounder. He's a talent.
Highmore....pick 45 in 2020. A find
Allison ...2nd rounder in 2021...jury is out
Wood...got him for nothing. Handy back up
Sharman... mid season 2021. Looks a player
Heath...mid season 2021...at last a young ruckman with real promise and grunt
Wanganeen-Milera...obvious talent
Owens....highly rated
Windhager....rated
Hayes...bonus pick up. Looks a find
Peris...speculative
Kyle...speculative

[cwrcyn]

The reality is, any list build has to be a balance between draft and trade selections. We have scope for improvement with a number of young players aged 22 or younger (Clark, Higgins, Coffield, King, Byrnes, Connolly, Bytel, Sharman, Heath, Wanganeen-Milera, Owens, Winghager, Adama, and Allison. That's 14 players aged 22 or younger, excluding Peris and Kyle. We will go to the draft again this year and pick up three or four more youngsters.

All in all, it could have been a whole lot worse considering the had we had since the end of season 2018. In Four draft/trade periods the club has been bold and has for the most part succeeded.

We're all unhappy at the moment, but I think we need to stand back and really look at the overall picture since the departure of Elshaug. From my point of view, I think the club has done pretty well

[Yorkeys]

Agree with cwrcyn.

James Gallagher has been outstanding.

For me that appointment wipes Leathers' Hannerbery-call slate clean.

Feel we may be being let down/misguided by our peripheral coaching entourage. Too many things just don't add up and/or are not explained to us.

We should be doing better than we are with the talent available. Why are Sharman and Long languishing, what's the go with Zac, why hasn't King gone on since that Eagles game - his marking has gone backwards and he is too damn good a player to be used as cannon fodder. What is the coaching philosophy stripped of sterile stats.

Don't see what Rath and Merrick add other than distractions and improbable theories - would we actually be regressing faster without them, because we are not improving. Ratts doesn't seem happier with them tagging along. 2020 seems a long time ago.

And as painful as it will be, calls are going to have to be made on men that cannot play regularly for whatever reasons. Team continuity and confidence about a spot is very important. I think.

[Impatient Sainter]

The reality is, any list build has to be a balance between draft and trade selections. We have scope for improvement with a number of young players aged 22 or younger (Clark, Higgins, Coffield, King, Byrnes, Connolly, Bytel, Sharman, Heath, Wanganeen-Milera, Owens, Winghager, Adama, and Allison. That's 14 players aged 22 or younger, excluding Peris and Kyle. We will go to the draft again this year and pick up three or four more youngsters.

All in all, it could have been a whole lot worse considering the had we had since the end of season 2018. In Four draft/trade periods the club has been bold and has for the most part succeeded.

We're all unhappy at the moment, but I think we need to stand back and really look at the overall picture since the departure of Elshaug. From my point of view, I think the club has done pretty well

Totally agree mate. I think the days of a complete bottom out, to go completely with a youth rebuid are well past. 4-5 years ago we were in the unique position of having a shyte list and being financially reliant on the AFL. We simply couldn't afford financially for the team to bottom out.

The consequences are we have been a middle of road side, but with some luck and smart drafting/trading moving forward things can be turned around quickly.

[Bowey Boy]

Chris Pelchen anyone.

[cwrcyn]

We are a younger list than people think, so as far as building to a top 4 list, we still have two more years of drafting to complete the job. If we can pick up two very talented youngsters in the next draft who will play senior football in their second year, then things will be okay. If we bomb those selections, then we could be in trouble.

In three years time, Ryder, Geary, Hannebery, and Campbell won't be on the list. Ross, Webster, Crouch, and Hill will be 31. That should see Ross out, but Webster and Crouch could play on for another season or two. Brad Hill is the type of player who could play until he's 34, no problem.

We definitely need the likes of NWM, Owens, Windhager, Heath, Connolly, Charman, Bytel and Byrnes to really establish themselves by then. Adams, from the little I've seen of him looks quite promising. We certainly need him to develop, and Allison, too. Key position players are like gold

All list builds are precarious. Injuries can derail them. When you look at our youngsters, most of those who had established themselves have had significant injuries. Gresham, Clark, Paton, Coffield, Bytel, and King. Battle has had an ongoing foot problem that flares up, and of course Marshall's 2021 season was ruined by a foot injury. Had none of those things occurred we might be better placed than we are right now.

On the positive side, it makes our list managers more realistic and more determined to get high level talent in. I have faith in Gallagher and the recruiting team we have at the moment. I couldn't say that from 2008 to 2017

[B.M]

Rebuilds are a load of s***

You bring in players through

National Draft
Trade Period
Free Agency
Rookie Draft
SSP selection
Mid Season Draft

You should use EVERY avenue to improve the list at all times.

Good players can be found in all of those ways!

[freely]

it's our coaches we've been s*** at recruiting. we've only had 2 innovators in my memory - GT and Lyon, which is why we're constantly arguing about which of them was better. Nobody since or for a long time prior has come close to offering anything in the least bit outside the box. And each one seems to be being recruited as a reaction to what we got wrong with the one before! We need someone hungry to demonstrate what they can give to the game. That's never never been bloody Rotten. And don't get me started on the disgraceful Dal Santo appointment.....

[skeptic]

IMO the most important but hardest jobs for any coach is accurately assessing the quality of the players on the list and creating a milieu that breeds enthusiasm professionalism and confidence

IMO Richo and it’s starting to look like Ratten are incredibly terrible at both tasks.

There are particular particular traits at this club that have been enduring for 7-8 years at this point.

Stop start game play
Terrible disposal and decision making
Bombing it in to outnumbered forwards
Am over reliance on small forwards
Players (both new and recruited) coming to the club with incredibly desirable, promising qualities and getting significantly worse over time

And then there’s this myriad of players that were not good enough that stayed on the list for 5-6 years being outperformed the majority of the time whilst we dragged out decisions…
Kent, Lonie, Weller, Longer, Acres, RLT, Pierce, Joyce, Dunstan, Savage, Clavarino

Starting to look that way for Battle, Dmac and Wood (albeit he is a newer recruit).

And there are a lot of decisions that many armchair experts clocked as stinkers right away that the highly paid and specialised professionals at the club messed up.
Hannebery is the obvious one
Kent still playing is another
Newnes having to drop himself after however many weeks of not laying a tackle springs to mind

As best as I can tell, IMO we’re just run in a very inept manner. Our leaders just tend to make a lot of really bad decisions.

[SunnyErnie]

The reality is, any list build has to be a balance between draft and trade selections. We have scope for improvement with a number of young players aged 22 or younger (Clark, Higgins, Coffield, King, Byrnes, Connolly, Bytel, Sharman, Heath, Wanganeen-Milera, Owens, Winghager, Adama, and Allison. That's 14 players aged 22 or younger, excluding Peris and Kyle. We will go to the draft again this year and pick up three or four more youngsters.

All in all, it could have been a whole lot worse considering the had we had since the end of season 2018. In Four draft/trade periods the club has been bold and has for the most part succeeded.

We're all unhappy at the moment, but I think we need to stand back and really look at the overall picture since the departure of Elshaug. From my point of view, I think the club has done pretty well

Totally agree mate. I think the days of a complete bottom out, to go completely with a youth rebuid are well past. 4-5 years ago we were in the unique position of having a shyte list and being financially reliant on the AFL. We simply couldn't afford financially for the team to bottom out.

The consequences are we have been a middle of road side, but with some luck and smart drafting/trading moving forward things can be turned around quickly.

I disagree very strongly with this statement. Have a look at North Melbourne. They stripped it right back and are now picking up the best young talent. As I said, in a couple of years they will zoom past us and be challenging again. Mark my words!!!

[Impatient Sainter]

The reality is, any list build has to be a balance between draft and trade selections. We have scope for improvement with a number of young players aged 22 or younger (Clark, Higgins, Coffield, King, Byrnes, Connolly, Bytel, Sharman, Heath, Wanganeen-Milera, Owens, Winghager, Adama, and Allison. That's 14 players aged 22 or younger, excluding Peris and Kyle. We will go to the draft again this year and pick up three or four more youngsters.

All in all, it could have been a whole lot worse considering the had we had since the end of season 2018. In Four draft/trade periods the club has been bold and has for the most part succeeded.

We're all unhappy at the moment, but I think we need to stand back and really look at the overall picture since the departure of Elshaug. From my point of view, I think the club has done pretty well

Totally agree mate. I think the days of a complete bottom out, to go completely with a youth rebuid are well past. 4-5 years ago we were in the unique position of having a shyte list and being financially reliant on the AFL. We simply couldn't afford financially for the team to bottom out.

The consequences are we have been a middle of road side, but with some luck and smart drafting/trading moving forward things can be turned around quickly.

I disagree very strongly with this statement. Have a look at North Melbourne. They stripped it right back and are now picking up the best young talent. As I said, in a couple of years they will zoom past us and be challenging again. Mark my words!!!

Or they could be like Melbourne in the early 2000's completely bottom out, have a heap of early draft picks with no older blokes to drive the club and the culture sucked...so the club continued to fail. There is a balance to all list builds we are still refining it.

[SunnyErnie]

The reality is, any list build has to be a balance between draft and trade selections. We have scope for improvement with a number of young players aged 22 or younger (Clark, Higgins, Coffield, King, Byrnes, Connolly, Bytel, Sharman, Heath, Wanganeen-Milera, Owens, Winghager, Adama, and Allison. That's 14 players aged 22 or younger, excluding Peris and Kyle. We will go to the draft again this year and pick up three or four more youngsters.

All in all, it could have been a whole lot worse considering the had we had since the end of season 2018. In Four draft/trade periods the club has been bold and has for the most part succeeded.

We're all unhappy at the moment, but I think we need to stand back and really look at the overall picture since the departure of Elshaug. From my point of view, I think the club has done pretty well

Totally agree mate. I think the days of a complete bottom out, to go completely with a youth rebuid are well past. 4-5 years ago we were in the unique position of having a shyte list and being financially reliant on the AFL. We simply couldn't afford financially for the team to bottom out.

The consequences are we have been a middle of road side, but with some luck and smart drafting/trading moving forward things can be turned around quickly.

I disagree very strongly with this statement. Have a look at North Melbourne. They stripped it right back and are now picking up the best young talent. As I said, in a couple of years they will zoom past us and be challenging again. Mark my words!!!

Or they could be like Melbourne in the early 2000's completely bottom out, have a heap of early draft picks with no older blokes to drive the club and the culture sucked...so the club continued to fail. There is a balance to all list builds we are still refining it.

North will be top 4 within 3 years. We are refining nothing.

[Scollop]

Agree with cwrcyn.

James Gallagher has been outstanding.

For me that appointment wipes Leathers' Hannerbery-call slate clean.

Feel we may be being let down/misguided by our peripheral coaching entourage. Too many things just don't add up and/or are not explained to us.

We should be doing better than we are with the talent available. Why are Sharman and Long languishing, what's the go with Zac, why hasn't King gone on since that Eagles game - his marking has gone backwards and he is too damn good a player to be used as cannon fodder. What is the coaching philosophy stripped of sterile stats.

Don't see what Rath and Merrick add other than distractions and improbable theories - would we actually be regressing faster without them, because we are not improving. Ratts doesn't seem happier with them tagging along. 2020 seems a long time ago.

And as painful as it will be, calls are going to have to be made on men that cannot play regularly for whatever reasons. Team continuity and confidence about a spot is very important. I think.

2020 was like a big training camp. All the guys doing everything together...even on their days off they'd be swimming, surfing, going to animal sanctuaries or watching movies ( )

That is one thing that should be copied from the days of GT. Get the guys together more often.

Gotta have better connection. The team has to care for one another and try and create success for one another

....edit/ Easier said than done. When you look at the changes to the list and constant turnover of players it is not always going to be instant. It takes time for a group to gel and time for individuals to feel like they are part of something bigger

[freely]

Agree with cwrcyn.

James Gallagher has been outstanding.

For me that appointment wipes Leathers' Hannerbery-call slate clean.

Feel we may be being let down/misguided by our peripheral coaching entourage. Too many things just don't add up and/or are not explained to us.

We should be doing better than we are with the talent available. Why are Sharman and Long languishing, what's the go with Zac, why hasn't King gone on since that Eagles game - his marking has gone backwards and he is too damn good a player to be used as cannon fodder. What is the coaching philosophy stripped of sterile stats.

Don't see what Rath and Merrick add other than distractions and improbable theories - would we actually be regressing faster without them, because we are not improving. Ratts doesn't seem happier with them tagging along. 2020 seems a long time ago.

And as painful as it will be, calls are going to have to be made on men that cannot play regularly for whatever reasons. Team continuity and confidence about a spot is very important. I think.

2020 was like a big training camp. All the guys doing everything together...even on their days off they'd be swimming, surfing, going to animal sanctuaries or watching movies ( )

That is one thing that should be copied from the days of GT. Get the guys together more often.

Gotta have better connection. The team has to care for one another and try and create success for one another

....edit/ Easier said than done. When you look at the changes to the list and constant turnover of players it is not always going to be instant. It takes time for a group to gel and time for individuals to feel like they are part of something bigger

for this to work, they have to be new recruits - not recycled recruits. And you have to go all the way back to GT for a time when we had a team full of them.

[Scollop]

Agree with cwrcyn.

James Gallagher has been outstanding.

For me that appointment wipes Leathers' Hannerbery-call slate clean.

Feel we may be being let down/misguided by our peripheral coaching entourage. Too many things just don't add up and/or are not explained to us.

We should be doing better than we are with the talent available. Why are Sharman and Long languishing, what's the go with Zac, why hasn't King gone on since that Eagles game - his marking has gone backwards and he is too damn good a player to be used as cannon fodder. What is the coaching philosophy stripped of sterile stats.

Don't see what Rath and Merrick add other than distractions and improbable theories - would we actually be regressing faster without them, because we are not improving. Ratts doesn't seem happier with them tagging along. 2020 seems a long time ago.

And as painful as it will be, calls are going to have to be made on men that cannot play regularly for whatever reasons. Team continuity and confidence about a spot is very important. I think.

2020 was like a big training camp. All the guys doing everything together...even on their days off they'd be swimming, surfing, going to animal sanctuaries or watching movies ( )

That is one thing that should be copied from the days of GT. Get the guys together more often.

Gotta have better connection. The team has to care for one another and try and create success for one another

....edit/ Easier said than done. When you look at the changes to the list and constant turnover of players it is not always going to be instant. It takes time for a group to gel and time for individuals to feel like they are part of something bigger

for this to work, they have to be new recruits - not recycled recruits. And you have to go all the way back to GT for a time when we had a team full of them.

I don't agree.

Management and the coaches have to provide an environment where it's something more that just treating everyone like a work colleague

If we aren't even trying to make sure that the bonds between the players are strong then they may as well not turn up.