Saints are poor at drafting

[Moods]

The #1 reason we are still a middle tier club after all this time is that we are no good at drafting quality footballers into our club. When I say quality I'm talking best players in the league.

Clarke, Coffield, Billings and McCartin. Not one of those players would be in anyone's top 50 players in the AFL. All of them drafted in the top 10. That's how you win flags. You need to nail your top 10 picks. It's the same reason why the Blues are basically in the same boat as us and why the Dogs and Dees are challenging for the flag in the next few years with Port. That's where the cream is and you simply can't afford to get 'good' players from those picks. To be top 4 you need to draft champions. And top 10 is where the champions generally come from.

Clarke looks the most likely to take the next step as he oozes class. Something is missing though, whether it be workrate, concentration, fitness. I'm not sure. He rarely gets BOG but often will get BIQ (Best in quarter)

Coffield looks timid to me. Will not push back hard into packs or stand under the ball with any presence. He can be fumbly. Has been in and out of the team and after 4 years that's disappointing.

Billings has been a massive disappointment to me. Has played nearly 7 years and rarely has finished in our top 10 of the B&F let alone the top 3. Is AFL standard but the excuses have worn thin to me. ie injuriy held him back, is played too much fwd, played not enough fwd. His field kicking and goal kicking despite looking pretty is not the standard we were promised. I'm not interested in the kicking stats (good or bad) my eyes tell me he misses too many kicks when under limited pressure. Give me Zac Merrett any day, that's what I imagined Jack was going to be (Or Nathan Brown from Dogs/Tiges)

McCartin - enough said. I personally reckon injuries saved him from being even more maligned as he was too small from the outset for the position we needed him to play and never fit enough.

The good news is that Max King looks to be that player. That top 10 pick who could actually be something. Has great height, great athleticism, his kicking is improving and he's holding more marks. Would love to see an attack on the ball like Naughton does but fingers crossed this will come. He appears a little 'nice' for a big man, but definitely has that X factor.

Looking back - Roo and kosi in the early 2000's. One was a generational champion, the other a good footballer. We needed both to be stars to win flags. BJ - qualifies as a very good pick. Luke Ball (disappointing when you consider that Judd and Hodge will both be AFL legends when qualified)

Of course we've nailed later picks, but if you wonder why we're not winning flags, I believe this is a massive contributing factor. We simply have to nail our 1st round pick next month

[WellardSaint]

Any of these guys, if picked by another club with more money for development, how would they have fared?
Apart from Paddy, they may well have become elite.
Is it our system?
Who knows?

[Sainter_Dad]

Any of these guys, if picked by another club with more money for development, how would they have fared?
Apart from Paddy, they may well have become elite.
Is it our system?
Who knows?

Or another club where they were allowed to develop instead of becoming the 'promised Messiah to lead us out of the Wilderness'
One with a successful feeder VFL team that was coached the way the Senior coach wanted

[lewdogs]

Hard to take seriously when you can't even spell Clark's name properly.

[B.M]

Drafting is everything (well almost everything)

Can’t win premierships without good players

We almost nailed the drafts 98-02 and were successful as a result
Just one more correct decision and we were back to back premiers

Melbourne have nailed every draft since 2014 - we did not

[Saintmatt]

100% disagree.

It's not the cattle - it's what you do with them once you've bought them from the market.

If you expect a talented 18yo midfielder to walk into a club and watch Seb Ross and Dunstan waddling about and expecting them to become the best version of themselves then you - and the rest of us - have been kidding.

And yet - that's what we recently found out. Ben McGlyn has been in charge of "development' ... part time. FFS. We've basically just drafted kids and hoped they got better. We're a joke of a club on that front.

Thank god we've finally got a proven and successful development resource in Damien Carroll on board. Maybe the elite talent we draft from here on in will become the best versions of themsleves.

[older saint]

I dont think we have drafted poorly recently - Clark,( so tempting to put an "e" on the end ), Coffield, King, Bytel, Brynes.

Coffield was the youngest player drafted I believe in that draft. He finished top 10 in B&F already. Yes had poor year last year but I think a poor pre season ( like many ) and perhaps felt comfortable).
Clark was starting to go to next level a bit then got injured. First full season for both of fully timed games after a poor pre season - we weren't fit enough no matter what spin they tell us).

King developing nicely ,patience with big players is something which is very lacking in AFL supporters.

Brynes, Bytel and Connolly were not early picks so done ok there and add experienced guys like Wilkie, and even Sharman .
Allison is a big ?
Claravino was a flop , especially when Petraccelli drafted just after and we lack speed.

Development has been a massive fail and for years as someone pointed out the lack of your own VFL side has been an anchor - WB, RICH, are the prime examples of developing players that can slide straight in when someone is hurt. People talk about Box Hill but really Hawthorn were set already and not many came from there. In fact you could argue their inability to develop players is hurting them now.

4 years to late we are putting more resources into development - not always drafting but what you do with them.

[CURLY]

The poor Development line is a complete crock.

[CQ SAINT]

I dont think we have drafted poorly recently - Clark,( so tempting to put an "e" on the end ), Coffield, King, Bytel, Brynes.

Coffield was the youngest player drafted I believe in that draft. He finished top 10 in B&F already. Yes had poor year last year but I think a poor pre season ( like many ) and perhaps felt comfortable).
Clark was starting to go to next level a bit then got injured. First full season for both of fully timed games after a poor pre season - we weren't fit enough no matter what spin they tell us).

King developing nicely ,patience with big players is something which is very lacking in AFL supporters.

Brynes, Bytel and Connolly were not early picks so done ok there and add experienced guys like Wilkie, and even Sharman .
Allison is a big ?
Claravino was a flop , especially when Petraccelli drafted just after and we lack speed.

Development has been a massive fail and for years as someone pointed out the lack of your own VFL side has been an anchor - WB, RICH, are the prime examples of developing players that can slide straight in when someone is hurt. People talk about Box Hill but really Hawthorn were set already and not many came from there. In fact you could argue their inability to develop players is hurting them now.

4 years to late we are putting more resources into development - not always drafting but what you do with them.

Brynes is glad you didn't miss spell Clark.

[kosifantutti]

Any of these guys, if picked by another club with more money for development, how would they have fared?
Apart from Paddy, they may well have become elite.
Is it our system?
Who knows?

I wish I could find that ad for Smith's Crisps.
"Is it the praties or the cooking?"

[desertsaint]

Good case to argue that we're poor at both unfortunately.

[The_Dud]

Haven't drafted an AA player in almost 20 years.

Says it all.

[Banger9798]

100% disagree.

It's not the cattle - it's what you do with them once you've bought them from the market.

If you expect a talented 18yo midfielder to walk into a club and watch Seb Ross and Dunstan waddling about and expecting them to become the best version of themselves then you - and the rest of us - have been kidding.

And yet - that's what we recently found out. Ben McGlyn has been in charge of "development' ... part time. FFS. We've basically just drafted kids and hoped they got better. We're a joke of a club on that front.

Thank god we've finally got a proven and successful development resource in Damien Carroll on board. Maybe the elite talent we draft from here on in will become the best versions of themsleves.

Just want to thank Saintmatt for his great use of the word "waddling" in this post

[CURLY]

100% disagree.

It's not the cattle - it's what you do with them once you've bought them from the market.

If you expect a talented 18yo midfielder to walk into a club and watch Seb Ross and Dunstan waddling about and expecting them to become the best version of themselves then you - and the rest of us - have been kidding.

And yet - that's what we recently found out. Ben McGlyn has been in charge of "development' ... part time. FFS. We've basically just drafted kids and hoped they got better. We're a joke of a club on that front.

Thank god we've finally got a proven and successful development resource in Damien Carroll on board. Maybe the elite talent we draft from here on in will become the best versions of themsleves.

What bulls***.

[Impatient Sainter]

Totally agree it was a serious short fall under Elshaugh & Bains but since then Libartore has got most right.

Have a look at the players drafted in 2017 draft year the year Clark & Coffield were selected, it was a very poor quality draft. Clark & Coffield are still only 22 year olds, so they should be starting to bloom in coming years. The worst thing the club did then was trade out of the 1st round of the 2016 draft with Hawthorn and remember Elshaugh was still around when that occurred.

Otherwise since 2017 onwards our drafting and player identification has been very good, if not exceptional. They have found a lot of diamonds in the rough with poor draft hands (which have been traded). Just remember the state of the list before Lethlean, Gallagher & Libartore took over, its now in a much much healthier state.

The development hasnt been class leading but the driven players find a way to rise to the top. The club at seasons end identified that as a need and employed Damian Carroll in the role.

[Life Long Saint]

I think it's a combination of drafting and development.
All kids that perform at the combine can play the game.
They all have strengths and weaknesses.

When we say "let's draft the best available" what does that mean? How do we define "best"?
Does best align with our strategy?
Hawthorn defined it as elite foot skills. They drafted elite kicks into their team as that aligned with their game plan/strategy.

What is ours?

How can we draft and develop talent when we're not consistent?
What was the game plan under Richo? It seemed to be good, honest workers - like him as a player. Not exceptional at anything.

We should be drafting kids that can hit targets by foot from 30m to 50m away. You'd naturally acquire inside and outside midfielders that way.

Back when we drafted Lonie...We had a choice between he and Caleb Daniel. I watched a video of the "drafting team" discussing Daniel. His height was an issue. But one of the team said that he met every challenge in front of him.
His kicking is elite. If he was 4-5 inches taller, he'd have been a first round contender.
We chose Lonie. Meanwhile Daniel has turned into a B&F winning half back flanker. Not sure he ever played that position in the SANFL. But his foot skills are exceptional.

In Richo's last season as coach and Gags first year recruiting, we drafted King and Bytel...Bytel was considered a slider at 41.
After those, we picked up Parker, Young, and Hind - all mature aged recruits. We added Wilkie in the rookie draft.
Hind was the pick of the national draft mature aged lot but he was a half back flanker and we tried to make him a forward. We gave him to Essendon for a handful of magic beans.
Parker had energy but no smarts. I'm not even sure what Robbie Young brought to the table. But none of them really elite at anything.
They were stop-gaps.
Wilkie is the exception there.

Clearly the mid season draft last year was a mix of immediate v future needs. Maybe it was more skewed to future and Sharman progressed better than expected.

We need to have a clear strategy in mind for this draft and I'd doubt it's elite kicking as we've offered contracts to players in the team that were out of contract that are terrible kicks. Ross & Geary spring to mind.

With our forward line reliant on fast ball movement, we need players that can hit targets by foot from defence to attack. That should be our prime consideration when bringing any player into the club.

[older saint]

I dont think we have drafted poorly recently - Clark,( so tempting to put an "e" on the end ), Coffield, King, Bytel, Brynes.

Coffield was the youngest player drafted I believe in that draft. He finished top 10 in B&F already. Yes had poor year last year but I think a poor pre season ( like many ) and perhaps felt comfortable).
Clark was starting to go to next level a bit then got injured. First full season for both of fully timed games after a poor pre season - we weren't fit enough no matter what spin they tell us).

King developing nicely ,patience with big players is something which is very lacking in AFL supporters.

Brynes, Bytel and Connolly were not early picks so done ok there and add experienced guys like Wilkie, and even Sharman .
Allison is a big ?
Claravino was a flop , especially when Petraccelli drafted just after and we lack speed.

Development has been a massive fail and for years as someone pointed out the lack of your own VFL side has been an anchor - WB, RICH, are the prime examples of developing players that can slide straight in when someone is hurt. People talk about Box Hill but really Hawthorn were set already and not many came from there. In fact you could argue their inability to develop players is hurting them now.

4 years to late we are putting more resources into development - not always drafting but what you do with them.

Brynes is glad you didn't miss spell Clark.

[Saintmatt]

100% disagree.

It's not the cattle - it's what you do with them once you've bought them from the market.

If you expect a talented 18yo midfielder to walk into a club and watch Seb Ross and Dunstan waddling about and expecting them to become the best version of themselves then you - and the rest of us - have been kidding.

And yet - that's what we recently found out. Ben McGlyn has been in charge of "development' ... part time. FFS. We've basically just drafted kids and hoped they got better. We're a joke of a club on that front.

Thank god we've finally got a proven and successful development resource in Damien Carroll on board. Maybe the elite talent we draft from here on in will become the best versions of themsleves.

What bulls***.

A fine rebuttal you've posited there CURLY - well done by you. As usual. What are you even doing on this forum topic anyway? Surely there's an old replay you can watch and then bang on endlessly about the poor state of the umpiring. Go start a match thread for it will you and move over there for some solid self flagellation. Please and thank you.

[saynta]

The #1 reason we are still a middle tier club after all this time is that we are no good at drafting quality footballers into our club. When I say quality I'm talking best players in the league.

Clarke, Coffield, Billings and McCartin. Not one of those players would be in anyone's top 50 players in the AFL. All of them drafted in the top 10. That's how you win flags. You need to nail your top 10 picks. It's the same reason why the Blues are basically in the same boat as us and why the Dogs and Dees are challenging for the flag in the next few years with Port. That's where the cream is and you simply can't afford to get 'good' players from those picks. To be top 4 you need to draft champions. And top 10 is where the champions generally come from.

Clarke looks the most likely to take the next step as he oozes class. Something is missing though, whether it be workrate, concentration, fitness. I'm not sure. He rarely gets BOG but often will get BIQ (Best in quarter)

Coffield looks timid to me. Will not push back hard into packs or stand under the ball with any presence. He can be fumbly. Has been in and out of the team and after 4 years that's disappointing.

Billings has been a massive disappointment to me. Has played nearly 7 years and rarely has finished in our top 10 of the B&F let alone the top 3. Is AFL standard but the excuses have worn thin to me. ie injuriy held him back, is played too much fwd, played not enough fwd. His field kicking and goal kicking despite looking pretty is not the standard we were promised. I'm not interested in the kicking stats (good or bad) my eyes tell me he misses too many kicks when under limited pressure. Give me Zac Merrett any day, that's what I imagined Jack was going to be (Or Nathan Brown from Dogs/Tiges)

McCartin - enough said. I personally reckon injuries saved him from being even more maligned as he was too small from the outset for the position we needed him to play and never fit enough.

The good news is that Max King looks to be that player. That top 10 pick who could actually be something. Has great height, great athleticism, his kicking is improving and he's holding more marks. Would love to see an attack on the ball like Naughton does but fingers crossed this will come. He appears a little 'nice' for a big man, but definitely has that X factor.

Looking back - Roo and kosi in the early 2000's. One was a generational champion, the other a good footballer. We needed both to be stars to win flags. BJ - qualifies as a very good pick. Luke Ball (disappointing when you consider that Judd and Hodge will both be AFL legends when qualified)

Of course we've nailed later picks, but if you wonder why we're not winning flags, I believe this is a massive contributing factor. We simply have to nail our 1st round pick next month

At least get the spelling of his name right. It's CLARK ffs.

I stopped reading after that.

[CURLY]

100% disagree.

It's not the cattle - it's what you do with them once you've bought them from the market.

If you expect a talented 18yo midfielder to walk into a club and watch Seb Ross and Dunstan waddling about and expecting them to become the best version of themselves then you - and the rest of us - have been kidding.

And yet - that's what we recently found out. Ben McGlyn has been in charge of "development' ... part time. FFS. We've basically just drafted kids and hoped they got better. We're a joke of a club on that front.

Thank god we've finally got a proven and successful development resource in Damien Carroll on board. Maybe the elite talent we draft from here on in will become the best versions of themsleves.

What bulls***.

A fine rebuttal you've posited there CURLY - well done by you. As usual. What are you even doing on this forum topic anyway? Surely there's an old replay you can watch and then bang on endlessly about the poor state of the umpiring. Go start a match thread for it will you and move over there for some solid self flagellation. Please and thank you.

Yeah what ever but your post about poor development is garbage.

[Saintmatt]

100% disagree.

It's not the cattle - it's what you do with them once you've bought them from the market.

If you expect a talented 18yo midfielder to walk into a club and watch Seb Ross and Dunstan waddling about and expecting them to become the best version of themselves then you - and the rest of us - have been kidding.

And yet - that's what we recently found out. Ben McGlyn has been in charge of "development' ... part time. FFS. We've basically just drafted kids and hoped they got better. We're a joke of a club on that front.

Thank god we've finally got a proven and successful development resource in Damien Carroll on board. Maybe the elite talent we draft from here on in will become the best versions of themsleves.

What bulls***.

A fine rebuttal you've posited there CURLY - well done by you. As usual. What are you even doing on this forum topic anyway? Surely there's an old replay you can watch and then bang on endlessly about the poor state of the umpiring. Go start a match thread for it will you and move over there for some solid self flagellation. Please and thank you.

Yeah what ever but your post about poor development is garbage.

Nice of you to get back on topic. Well done.

It is not rubbish. If our development has been so stellar why haven't any of our drafted players in the last 20 years risen to AA status? Why has the club finally appointed a FULL TIME development resource after admitting that it was being done part time? Surely that's an acknowledgement that development hasn't been up to scratch?

[CURLY]

100% disagree.

It's not the cattle - it's what you do with them once you've bought them from the market.

If you expect a talented 18yo midfielder to walk into a club and watch Seb Ross and Dunstan waddling about and expecting them to become the best version of themselves then you - and the rest of us - have been kidding.

And yet - that's what we recently found out. Ben McGlyn has been in charge of "development' ... part time. FFS. We've basically just drafted kids and hoped they got better. We're a joke of a club on that front.

Thank god we've finally got a proven and successful development resource in Damien Carroll on board. Maybe the elite talent we draft from here on in will become the best versions of themsleves.

What bulls***.

A fine rebuttal you've posited there CURLY - well done by you. As usual. What are you even doing on this forum topic anyway? Surely there's an old replay you can watch and then bang on endlessly about the poor state of the umpiring. Go start a match thread for it will you and move over there for some solid self flagellation. Please and thank you.

Yeah what ever but your post about poor development is garbage.

Nice of you to get back on topic. Well done.

It is not rubbish. If our development has been so stellar why haven't any of our drafted players in the last 20 years risen to AA status? Why has the club finally appointed a FULL TIME development resource after admitting that it was being done part time? Surely that's an acknowledgement that development hasn't been up to scratch?

Maybe they aren't that good. Maybe our elite players are the third best player in that role like Marshall Membrey or Wilkie.

[Sainter_Dad]

100% disagree.

It's not the cattle - it's what you do with them once you've bought them from the market.

If you expect a talented 18yo midfielder to walk into a club and watch Seb Ross and Dunstan waddling about and expecting them to become the best version of themselves then you - and the rest of us - have been kidding.

And yet - that's what we recently found out. Ben McGlyn has been in charge of "development' ... part time. FFS. We've basically just drafted kids and hoped they got better. We're a joke of a club on that front.

Thank god we've finally got a proven and successful development resource in Damien Carroll on board. Maybe the elite talent we draft from here on in will become the best versions of themsleves.

What bulls***.

A fine rebuttal you've posited there CURLY - well done by you. As usual. What are you even doing on this forum topic anyway? Surely there's an old replay you can watch and then bang on endlessly about the poor state of the umpiring. Go start a match thread for it will you and move over there for some solid self flagellation. Please and thank you.

Yeah what ever but your post about poor development is garbage.

Nice of you to get back on topic. Well done.

It is not rubbish. If our development has been so stellar why haven't any of our drafted players in the last 20 years risen to AA status? Why has the club finally appointed a FULL TIME development resource after admitting that it was being done part time? Surely that's an acknowledgement that development hasn't been up to scratch?

Maybe they aren't that good. Maybe our elite players are the third best player in that role like Marshall Membrey or Wilkie.

I fear this is not the case - but can you imagine a team made up of 22 players who just missed out on AA selection??

[lewdogs]

This time last year we were pretty stoked with Clark and Coffield. They were both tracking beautifully.

I'm willing to hold my horses on those two. Think both can be elite players.

And then there's King.

[B.M]

Great players survive and thrive in any environments - they find a way!!!

Poor clubs have had many great players, who have excelled even in poor environments. Especially at our club!

You MUST have talent - I keep saying it
But you can’t turn s*** into strawberry jam!!!

I liken it to schools
Why is it the case, that kids who go to disadvantaged public schools can still get a 95+ ATAR
Often, those students become even higher achiever having not been spoon fed or reliant on resources. They can be more resourceful and more resilient.

Players at great clubs get individually overrated. They feed off the better players.