Lyon Pulls out

[Teflon]

Failure?

Lyon 9 points off premiership

Thomas 6 points off a GF against an interstate team on their home deck who had been the best H/A side for 3 years.

Can’t have it both ways

Either both are failures - not getting the job done

Or

Both were good coaches, but didn’t get over the line

Because I don’t think there was a great deal between them - albeit different strengths.

BTW
Best finals win in my memory
Vs Adelaide interstate with an injury depleted team!!!
Coach - GT

Best final IMO was defeating a rampant Bulldogs side in an 09 Preliminary Final when the team had been up for 19 in a row to actually MAKE the Grand Final
But if you like losses earlier in finals and not playing in GFs if that floats your boat so be it

Interesting stats from 2009. https://afltables.com/afl/seas/2009.html

We smashed the Doggies in Round 17 by 45 points in home and away, but they nearly beat us in the prelim in 2009…Not sure how ‘rampant’ they were. We actually disposed of them in Round 6 that year pretty easily too!

Our super coach (At That Time) didn’t think things through properly when preparing the best team of the year for their finals campaign. Super effort from the players being up for 19 in a row in 2009 and busting their guts to win that McLellan trophy….

but pretty dumb from the super coach (At That Time) who learnt a thing or two (at St Kilda’s expense) from his blunder when he was later coaching Fremantle and rested 11 players in the last round of home and away https://www.afl.com.au/news/38538/docke ... inal-round

So are you suggesting that the Saints should have eased up a bit during the '09 season? What, like 2004 when after winning 10 on the trot, and thrashing the opposition by over 100 pts in both rounds 9 & 10, the coach (at that time), instead of training, took the players to the movies, after which they lost momentum and proceeded to lose 4 out of the next 5 games, and then needed to "bust a gut" to get their season back on track? Got smashed in the first final, and didn't even get to the GF. Not very astute.

Cracking post
Lol at the movies with Grant where he was “trying to round out young men” in his image no doubt ...
At least we released The Streak DVD

[Teflon]

Core group

GT had over a third of his team under 22 - talented but inexperienced

And you can’t name Hamill
He missed both finals series with injury

GT had older players and younger players - very few from 23-27

Ross had most of his stars in that age bracket

Lies
You need to be Trump fact checked for the rubbish you make up

2005 side Avg Age 23.7 4th in AFL : Games Experience 69 games ranked 3rd in AFL for the year


2009 side Avg Age 23.3 ranked 5th in AFL: Games Experience 61 ranked 5th

There was also over 10 players available in 2005 age between 23-27 (more in 09 that’s true) point being hardly the difference as one could argue the experience Thomas had at his disposal over his tenure as coach ran deeper and his bottom end of his lists in that time was superior

[Teflon]

Happy feet

How is it demeaning

They were 32/33 and 31/32 years old by the time the 04/05 final series rolled around.

Both by then were definitely finge players/role players

They new that, and they were important in their roles

Thomson at 221 games and Peckett at 252 games indicates they were more than just fringe players. I think where we are at odds is that you are limiting it to the 04/05 series where as I am thinking about their whole career.

I think it’s a bit demeaning to rate their whole career on their last season or so.

Thompson played 22 matches and Peckett 20 in 05
Not bad for “fringe” players ....
More Lies

[Teflon]

I wouldn't let Ross Lyon in to give a motivational speech to the women's team.

I agree, after only a couple of years in the AFLW, they wouldn't be up to RL's level as yet.

I think Rosco “mincing” in would be just the trick
Good Saints man and wily customer
I think it’d be fitting on GF red the cup presentation
I’m starting an online petition
“Ross for the cup”
Whose with me???

[happy feet]

Happy feet

How is it demeaning

They were 32/33 and 31/32 years old by the time the 04/05 final series rolled around.

Both by then were definitely finge players/role players

They new that, and they were important in their roles

Thomson at 221 games and Peckett at 252 games indicates they were more than just fringe players. I think where we are at odds is that you are limiting it to the 04/05 series where as I am thinking about their whole career.

I think it’s a bit demeaning to rate their whole career on their last season or so.

Thompson played 22 matches and Peckett 20 in 05
Not bad for “fringe” players ....
More Lies

Careful you will end up with a ban.

[Teflon]

re the ... ease up angle

a young mob (in 04)
+ oldies
wouldn't be expected to run out a season
even today

an 09 mob
utilising the coming 'whole of squad' mindset
(during the season)

could of been the great leap forward
'n jagged us a couple on the trot

but then
the hierarchy couldn't get their heads around
a fallow year either
(being a part of the cycle)

pity
we definitely pissed an opportunity away

thats seems for sure n certain

14 on the list 2004 aged 23-27 ???
Doesn’t excuse the 2005 effort also
I’d argue the top end kids he had (see what Port has done with their influx of kids in recent years) plus the superstar experience at his disposal in 04/05 meant Thomas drastically underachieved
By the time 2010 was rolling round our core had been up fir a while and players like Hayes were ageing with Harvey et al gone
Anyway all individual perspective I guess and each to their own

[saynta]

Just off the top of my head

Nathan Burke, Stewart Loewe, Nicky Winmar, Max Hudghton, L.Hayes, N.Reiwoldt, L.Montagna.

Ross Lyon is not even a StK person and doesn’t consider himself one.

He was employed by Stk, but coached for himself.

And lied his way to Freo, blindsiding the club. The poster has to be pulling the forums leg.

[Teflon]

Happy feet

How is it demeaning

They were 32/33 and 31/32 years old by the time the 04/05 final series rolled around.

Both by then were definitely finge players/role players

They new that, and they were important in their roles

Thomson at 221 games and Peckett at 252 games indicates they were more than just fringe players. I think where we are at odds is that you are limiting it to the 04/05 series where as I am thinking about their whole career.

I think it’s a bit demeaning to rate their whole career on their last season or so.

Thompson played 22 matches and Peckett 20 in 05
Not bad for “fringe” players ....
More Lies

Careful you will end up with a ban.

Lol the truth will set you free.,, Just not here !!

[shanegrambeau]

What is a fringe player?
Being me, I had to look it up.

I searched ‘St Kilda fringe player 2000and something )

Who did I get? First hit?

Have a guess!

“He was considered a fringe player before 2010”

Hint

JG

This players trajectory really sums up the hope Of the Lyon era..Juat a novice when GT was around. He was no shoe in.

Finished 10th in the TB award and delisted

Went to a second club for two years.
Delisted by them after finishing 11th in their B&F

Also an A grade cricketer for South Melbourne

[Scollop]

Jimmy Gwilt.

He was drafted in 2004 and Grant Thomas surprised everyone by picking him in the finals in 2005 in only his second game of AFL.

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players ... Gwilt.html

Played 15 games in 2009 (including round 17 against the Bulldogs where he kicked 2 goals) but Lyon didn’t play him in any of the finals. Was he injured?

https://www.afl.com.au/news/505896/nobl ... r-to-gwilt ( this report by Luke Holmesby is from May 2009)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Gwilt

[Teflon]

What is a fringe player?
Being me, I had to look it up.

I searched ‘St Kilda fringe player 2000and something )

Who did I get? First hit?

Have a guess!

“He was considered a fringe player before 2010”

Hint

JG

This players trajectory really sums up the hope Of the Lyon era..Juat a novice when GT was around. He was no shoe in.

Finished 10th in the TB award and delisted

Went to a second club for two years.
Delisted by them after finishing 11th in their B&F

Also an A grade cricketer for South Melbourne

Had a good career Gwilt
Lyon entrenched him in the side after 2008 his best year
He was an emergency for the 09 GF with the side making only 1 change being Dempster for Eddy who had only 12 possessions previous 2 games

[shanegrambeau]

As a kick-to-kick footballer U15Cs, this is where my knowledge runs out. JG looked liked like a footballer to me. Why was he only given limited chances? What were his limits? Pace? Defensive side. He was strong, could mark.

And how quickly he was moved on, by us and Essendon, after very healthy seasons.

Edit thanks Scollop for that link

I see a noticable dip in possessions the Watters years for him. Bounced back in Richo's first year (we were getting hammered) then delisted.

[B.M]

At that point in their career, they were definitely fringe players/role players.

Anyone who watched footy in those two seasons knew that… they played a support role!!!

Thompson’s best 98-02

Peckett 94-99

Both serviceable after that, but not core players

[skeptic]

What is a fringe player?
Being me, I had to look it up.

I searched ‘St Kilda fringe player 2000and something )

Who did I get? First hit?

Have a guess!

“He was considered a fringe player before 2010”

Hint

JG

This players trajectory really sums up the hope Of the Lyon era..Juat a novice when GT was around. He was no shoe in.

Finished 10th in the TB award and delisted

Went to a second club for two years.
Delisted by them after finishing 11th in their B&F

Also an A grade cricketer for South Melbourne

Had a good career Gwilt
Lyon entrenched him in the side after 2008 his best year
He was an emergency for the 09 GF with the side making only 1 change being Dempster for Eddy who had only 12 possessions previous 2 games

Not a criticism of RL at all as Gwilt really stepped it up in 2010 and became an integral part of the team but geeez, don’t you wish purely in hindsight to make one other change to that 09 team...
Out - Raph Clarke
In - James Gwilt in 2010 form onto the HBF.

I always liked Raph but that game was stinker from him

[Teflon]

What is a fringe player?
Being me, I had to look it up.

I searched ‘St Kilda fringe player 2000and something )

Who did I get? First hit?

Have a guess!

“He was considered a fringe player before 2010”

Hint

JG

This players trajectory really sums up the hope Of the Lyon era..Juat a novice when GT was around. He was no shoe in.

Finished 10th in the TB award and delisted

Went to a second club for two years.
Delisted by them after finishing 11th in their B&F

Also an A grade cricketer for South Melbourne

Had a good career Gwilt
Lyon entrenched him in the side after 2008 his best year
He was an emergency for the 09 GF with the side making only 1 change being Dempster for Eddy who had only 12 possessions previous 2 games

Not a criticism of RL at all as Gwilt really stepped it up in 2010 and became an integral part of the team but geeez, don’t you wish purely in hindsight to make one other change to that 09 team...
Out - Raph Clarke
In - James Gwilt in 2010 form onto the HBF.

I always liked Raph but that game was stinker from him

Don’t disagree and I’m sure with hindsight Lyon would too
Raph had actually been ok leading up to it .,,,he just saved some dumb stuff for the biggest day....I always was amazed at his lack of awareness when he was about to be caught ...,anyhow history now
I know Hudgton had only played 7 games during the year due to injury but I’d have liked him in the side and did say that at the time ....you knew he’d die for the cause but not to be

[skeptic]

What is a fringe player?
Being me, I had to look it up.

I searched ‘St Kilda fringe player 2000and something )

Who did I get? First hit?

Have a guess!

“He was considered a fringe player before 2010”

Hint

JG

This players trajectory really sums up the hope Of the Lyon era..Juat a novice when GT was around. He was no shoe in.

Finished 10th in the TB award and delisted

Went to a second club for two years.
Delisted by them after finishing 11th in their B&F

Also an A grade cricketer for South Melbourne

Had a good career Gwilt
Lyon entrenched him in the side after 2008 his best year
He was an emergency for the 09 GF with the side making only 1 change being Dempster for Eddy who had only 12 possessions previous 2 games

Not a criticism of RL at all as Gwilt really stepped it up in 2010 and became an integral part of the team but geeez, don’t you wish purely in hindsight to make one other change to that 09 team...
Out - Raph Clarke
In - James Gwilt in 2010 form onto the HBF.

I always liked Raph but that game was stinker from him

Don’t disagree and I’m sure with hindsight Lyon would too
Raph had actually been ok leading up to it .,,,he just saved some dumb stuff for the biggest day....I always was amazed at his lack of awareness when he was about to be caught ...,anyhow history now
I know Hudgton had only played 7 games during the year due to injury but I’d have liked him in the side and did say that at the time ....you knew he’d die for the cause but not to be

Yeah... I get that. He was mighty injury prone at that time though. Would have been a big risk and was happy enough to leave that call to RL. it’s a big call but him and the coaching staff had the most up to date info.

The other one ones I wonder about... and this is the pure fantasy realm... imagine if we had Cousins and Harvey for 09 too.
Might not have lost a game period

[B.M]

Who’s spot was Hudghton taking

Dawson? Who’d been fullback for the entire year?

Fisher? Gun

Blake? Dependable

Unless you dropped a 23yo 197cm Dawson to play a 32yo 191cm Full Back who hadn’t played seniors for some time to match up on Tom Hawkins 198cm

[Teflon]

Who’s spot was Hudghton taking

Dawson? Who’d been fullback for the entire year?

Fisher? Gun

Blake? Dependable

Unless you dropped a 23yo 197cm Dawson to play a 32yo 191cm Full Back who hadn’t played seniors for some time to match up on Tom Hawkins 198cm

Dawson was the talk at the time
Maybe I’m romantic but I think Max would’ve died trying in that game
Anyway that’s 1 thing about Lyon I liked (unlike Richo and Ratten re Hill not being dropped this far..) he didn’t care bout your reputation ...if he thought you weren’t up to it..you didn’t play
Dropping Milne/Dal proved that

[Teflon]

What is a fringe player?
Being me, I had to look it up.

I searched ‘St Kilda fringe player 2000and something )

Who did I get? First hit?

Have a guess!

“He was considered a fringe player before 2010”

Hint

JG

This players trajectory really sums up the hope Of the Lyon era..Juat a novice when GT was around. He was no shoe in.

Finished 10th in the TB award and delisted

Went to a second club for two years.
Delisted by them after finishing 11th in their B&F

Also an A grade cricketer for South Melbourne

Had a good career Gwilt
Lyon entrenched him in the side after 2008 his best year
He was an emergency for the 09 GF with the side making only 1 change being Dempster for Eddy who had only 12 possessions previous 2 games

Not a criticism of RL at all as Gwilt really stepped it up in 2010 and became an integral part of the team but geeez, don’t you wish purely in hindsight to make one other change to that 09 team...
Out - Raph Clarke
In - James Gwilt in 2010 form onto the HBF.

I always liked Raph but that game was stinker from him

Don’t disagree and I’m sure with hindsight Lyon would too
Raph had actually been ok leading up to it .,,,he just saved some dumb stuff for the biggest day....I always was amazed at his lack of awareness when he was about to be caught ...,anyhow history now
I know Hudgton had only played 7 games during the year due to injury but I’d have liked him in the side and did say that at the time ....you knew he’d die for the cause but not to be

Yeah... I get that. He was mighty injury prone at that time though. Would have been a big risk and was happy enough to leave that call to RL. it’s a big call but him and the coaching staff had the most up to date info.

The other one ones I wonder about... and this is the pure fantasy realm... imagine if we had Cousins and Harvey for 09 too.
Might not have lost a game period

I was a massive yes to Cousins at the time
I felt his 25 in a GF with good use was a no brainer
I read Lyon wanted him
Club didn’t cause we were gun shy on d!ckheads after having a few blow up....we had Dusty interested too and for that same no risk policy probably didn’t help ourselves
Who knows but I still feel Cousins was a cherry on top risk worth taking

[skeptic]

What is a fringe player?
Being me, I had to look it up.

I searched ‘St Kilda fringe player 2000and something )

Who did I get? First hit?

Have a guess!

“He was considered a fringe player before 2010”

Hint

JG

This players trajectory really sums up the hope Of the Lyon era..Juat a novice when GT was around. He was no shoe in.

Finished 10th in the TB award and delisted

Went to a second club for two years.
Delisted by them after finishing 11th in their B&F

Also an A grade cricketer for South Melbourne

Had a good career Gwilt
Lyon entrenched him in the side after 2008 his best year
He was an emergency for the 09 GF with the side making only 1 change being Dempster for Eddy who had only 12 possessions previous 2 games

Not a criticism of RL at all as Gwilt really stepped it up in 2010 and became an integral part of the team but geeez, don’t you wish purely in hindsight to make one other change to that 09 team...
Out - Raph Clarke
In - James Gwilt in 2010 form onto the HBF.

I always liked Raph but that game was stinker from him

Don’t disagree and I’m sure with hindsight Lyon would too
Raph had actually been ok leading up to it .,,,he just saved some dumb stuff for the biggest day....I always was amazed at his lack of awareness when he was about to be caught ...,anyhow history now
I know Hudgton had only played 7 games during the year due to injury but I’d have liked him in the side and did say that at the time ....you knew he’d die for the cause but not to be

Yeah... I get that. He was mighty injury prone at that time though. Would have been a big risk and was happy enough to leave that call to RL. it’s a big call but him and the coaching staff had the most up to date info.

The other one ones I wonder about... and this is the pure fantasy realm... imagine if we had Cousins and Harvey for 09 too.
Might not have lost a game period

I was a massive yes to Cousins at the time
I felt his 25 in a GF with good use was a no brainer
I read Lyon wanted him
Club didn’t cause we were gun shy on d!ckheads after having a few blow up....we had Dusty interested too and for that same no risk policy probably didn’t help ourselves
Who knows but I still feel Cousins was a cherry on top risk worth taking

I agree on all points.
Cousins was an elite talent, big game player, had finals experience and came cheap
Yeah he was a risk but who cares… we could have just sacked him.

I was always under the impression Lyon wanted him as well. Everything about RL’s philosophy/style screams that this is exactly the type of player he would have jumped at and TBH… given (in my opinion of course) that RL’s biggest strength was the “bubble” and mental toughness he instilled in players…
I reckon Cousins would have flourished here.

Very big what if moment IMO

[amusingname]

If i recall correctly, hasn't cousins pretty much acknowledged he wasn't taking the 'straight and narrow' thing seriously while the saints and pies were still interested? such as when a hair follicle test for drug use was floated, suddenly he is shaved down, etc. I think he has said it was only when we pulled out and the tigers were the last chance that he decided to take things a bit more seriously.

Also, having the bloke who was beside him for some the more nefarious times at West Coast already at the club wasn't ideal. I think that since Gardy was on the straight and narrow, the concern was bringing Ben in could not only be an issue in terms of his issues, but also cause Gardy to regress as well.

[skeptic]

If i recall correctly, hasn't cousins pretty much acknowledged he wasn't taking the 'straight and narrow' thing seriously while the saints and pies were still interested? such as when a hair follicle test for drug use was floated, suddenly he is shaved down, etc. I think he has said it was only when we pulled out and the tigers were the last chance that he decided to take things a bit more seriously.

Also, having the bloke who was beside him for some the more nefarious times at West Coast already at the club wasn't ideal. I think that since Gardy was on the straight and narrow, the concern was bringing Ben in could not only be an issue in terms of his issues, but also cause Gardy to regress as well.

Possible... but if he we could have kept it together for a year and won the flag, who cares.

Also, I don’t know about the Gardiner. The guy was on the straight and narrow at least on appearance the whole time he was at the club and he’s stayed out of the news since.
Connecting the 2 as being trouble together is easy enough but I always thought it was a stretch to suggest that Gardiner would definitely have regressed if BC was there too. He’s a grown man and makes his own decisions. Always felt ppl made that assumption a little to readily

[Teflon]

I see Cats are now sounding out Ross Lyon for a coaching gig
They mustn’t have talked to Scollop ....I mean the guy clearly can’t coach right ???
Surely they meant to dial GT instead ....and rang old Rosco by mistake???????

[Wayne42]

I see Cats are now sounding out Ross Lyon for a coaching gig
They mustn’t have talked to Scollop ....I mean the guy clearly can’t coach right ???
Surely they meant to dial GT instead ....and rang old Rosco by mistake???????

They want him as a yes man.

Can you move the witches hats again Ross, Yes Chris, where do you want them.

Sounds about right.

I believe they will also make him property steward, that way he keeps his hand in managing and dealing with property for his post footy career.

[Scollop]

I see Cats are now sounding out Ross Lyon for a coaching gig
They mustn’t have talked to Scollop ....I mean the guy clearly can’t coach right ???
Surely they meant to dial GT instead ....and rang old Rosco by mistake???????

Chris Scott should take a look at Melbourne. He'll learn a lot more from their list and their line up in the Grand Final than he will from listening to a bunch of tired worn out cliches from your mate...Melbourne didn't enter finals in poor form. They didn't fall over the line in a prelim. They played to their potential. I suppose Ross would have played Jake Bowey ahead of Nathan Jones or Melksham or Neville Jetta would he?

Anyhow ...Brendan Bolton and Alan Richardson were sought as well after they were sacked

Lyon will fit in well down at Geelong with their arrogant players who think they're better than they really are. Clarke did himself a favour getting out. Poor ol Rhysey...can't see him getting many games....Bad luck as well to Quinton Narkle. Danger and Selwood and Smith and Higgins and the older brigade preferred.

I had a strange feeling this thread wasn't finished... Teffers might pop his head up here or there with an attempt at humour and at the same time extolling the brilliance of Ross Lyon.

History has a way of sorting out a mythical super coach (at the time) and 'wanna be legends' with coaches that actually fulfill a teams potential. You need to learn to differentiate between popular opinion dressed up as 'fact' ...versus the real thing.

With the start we had in 2009... any decent coach with half a brain should have planned better for the finals. We had players who were not at their best and players who couldn't impact because they were burnt out. NEVER again in the history of our game will you see a team win 19 in a row and yet fail at the final hurdle. Aiming for a McLellan cup instead of a flag...what's your favourite saying...oh yeah...Muppet (at the time) !!

Kayo had all GF's going back to 2011 and I was bored so I watched the 2013 GF earlier this week...I was prepared...unlike your Tosser mate

Go and watch the 2013 Grand Final. If Freo had a better game plan and were better prepared they should have won. No one in finals...repeat NO ONE could compete with Aaron Sandilands that year (least of all Hale and Bailey). Sandi was handing it on a platter to his mids. Freo kicked only 1 goal in a half of footy...They interviewed Toss at half time and no guesses what he said. "We couldn't execute." C'mon Ross. Stop blaming the players mate!!

It was the same story for Freo in 2013 as it was for the Saints in 2009/2010. Brilliant players on all lines carrying an average-good coach and not enough focus on scoring or having multiple set plays for attack or options up forward.