With 10 seconds to go in the third

[saynta]

Lead all day with 8 best 22 missing. No complaints here we’ve overtaken Collingwood going forward.

You wouldnt say that if you had of watched the VFL game today. Collingwood have far more depth on their list and a better future. They will get the best and youngest Daicos for just draft points at years end. All they need is a more attacking coach, a key forward target and they will leap frog us in 6 months.

Where are they plucking this key forward target from? Of course there VFL side looked better they’ve got one of the shortest injury lists in the AFL.

Correct.

[Crossy66]

It if wasn’t for Ryder who was magnificent again, we would have lost.

Ross
Dunstan
Billings

Where were you?

Sorry, Jack but I’ve lost patience with you. Good luck at Essendon.

Dunstan? Wot game did you watch?

He was quiet in the final term.

4 possessions and zero tackles.

You need any more help with this?

16 players had equal or less disposals in the last than Dunstan. But somehow it's on those 3 and the rest are ok? Interesting.
Dunstan was also second for contested possessions in the last.

I always found this to be an interesting argument

Other people were just as bad doesn’t hold up for me

Whilst I agree with you that overall, the whole team was a problem in the last…
I have higher expectations of Billings and Ross than other players given age, talent + experience … and Dunstan was one whose performance dipped the most compared to players that were never in the game. Sadly he has a history of this albeit he was still good on the day and is in career best form

Different players carry different expectations. I’d have hopped these three stood taller when the team needed them to

So you have a higher expectation of Dunstan than, hill, Ryder, Marshall, membrey, king, Higgins etc to the point he is singled out? Interesting- hasn't Lukey risen from the dead!
Incidentally Ross had the same number of possessions as crouch yet no mention of crouch?
The point is that with the exception of Steele, Howard possibly Sinclair and dmac, the rest ALL fell away in the last

Billings was average all day and has barely trained all year. He's no right and it's not his fault they play him. I suspect if we had a healthier list we may not

The criticism remains valid even though it could be applied to more players. Given their total dominance of possession and ball movement… seems fair to suggest that the midfield is where we dropped off the most

I suppose it's fair to suggest anything, but would be good if it was remotely factual.
I responded to the original post by saintpav that singled out 3 players who apparently went missing in the last qtr.
Including Dunny, but also Stated Paddy was magnificent again and we would have lost without him.
Apparently the dunny we expect more from as an experienced player etc. etc.

The main problem with his argument is that Paddy had zero possessions in the last. That's no kicks, no marks, no tackles. In fact his opponent Grundy had 4.
Can you see why loading the blame in the last on one person rather than the team(less a few) is missing the bigger picture?

Of course but we’re in territory where we are using stats and examples that suit specific arguments.

Not to put words in Pav’s mouth but those may have been the examples that for whatever reason stood out to him most. Or it may have been the case of a perception that Paddy did enough after almost winning the game for us in the third… or maybe it’s more realistic to expect Paddy to tire.

I think you’ve really jumped on the singling out part but it’s not as though he was providing a detailed analysis of every player on the field either and IMO he hasn’t actually said anything wrong.

Those 3 along with others were well down in the last quarter and IMO the midfield was handily beaten and looked to stop.

We have a very nasty way of stagnating late in games sometimes.
For some reason, when we’re not winning contested ball, the go to move seems to be to just kick long to contests and we’re very bad at run and carry and kicking so that others can mark

My contribution to this argument has come fuelled more so by a recent perception of how Hill is getting lumped into these types of conversations as of late (not to at it happened here)…
Such and such kicks a clanger… well Hill’s on $900k and kicks changers or possession count becomes the measuring stick vs Hill.

The point that I was making is merely bringing other players into an argument to me, sometimes feels like it’s a distraction from the point.
In this case… yeah those 3 players had poor last quarters and yes so did 10+ other players. For whatever reason it’s something of a button of mine as of late

I jumped on the singling out part because the post was about singling out.
Praise for Ryder with zero last qtr disposals and a whip for Dunstan based off nothing factual.
4 of the last qtr goals came from bad turnovers caused by wood, membrey, Byrnes and crouch. If you want to single people out.
But as a team, across the park we stopped running and kicked down the line.

[SaintPav]

It if wasn’t for Ryder who was magnificent again, we would have lost.

Ross
Dunstan
Billings

Where were you?

Sorry, Jack but I’ve lost patience with you. Good luck at Essendon.

Dunstan? Wot game did you watch?

He was quiet in the final term.

4 possessions and zero tackles.

You need any more help with this?

16 players had equal or less disposals in the last than Dunstan. But somehow it's on those 3 and the rest are ok? Interesting.
Dunstan was also second for contested possessions in the last.

It’s not only up to him as it’s a team game but he’s an experienced players now and he plays in the guts and that’s where the rot usually starts.

He also has a habit of fading in the last quarter.

Wasn’t too wrapped with Howard’s kick outs too.

Same old.

So no problem with the TEAMS last quarter's this year? Just dunny you think?

yeah, that's what I said.

[skeptic]

Seems like you’re just going to ignore what you don’t like. It looks to me like you’re putting words in Pav’s mouth and turning the conversation into something it’s not.

[Vortex]

slight thread drift but probably related: did anyone see the look on Sebby and Members face the moment the siren sounded, pure disgust and disapointment. I'm guessing senior players in the leadership group were filthy witht the last quarter.

[Scollop]

It if wasn’t for Ryder who was magnificent again, we would have lost.

Ross
Dunstan
Billings

Where were you?

Sorry, Jack but I’ve lost patience with you. Good luck at Essendon.

Dunstan? Wot game did you watch?

He was quiet in the final term.

4 possessions and zero tackles.

You need any more help with this?

16 players had equal or less disposals in the last than Dunstan. But somehow it's on those 3 and the rest are ok? Interesting.
Dunstan was also second for contested possessions in the last.

I always found this to be an interesting argument

Other people were just as bad doesn’t hold up for me

Whilst I agree with you that overall, the whole team was a problem in the last…
I have higher expectations of Billings and Ross than other players given age, talent + experience … and Dunstan was one whose performance dipped the most compared to players that were never in the game. Sadly he has a history of this albeit he was still good on the day and is in career best form

Different players carry different expectations. I’d have hopped these three stood taller when the team needed them to

So you have a higher expectation of Dunstan than, hill, Ryder, Marshall, membrey, king, Higgins etc to the point he is singled out? Interesting- hasn't Lukey risen from the dead!
Incidentally Ross had the same number of possessions as crouch yet no mention of crouch?
The point is that with the exception of Steele, Howard possibly Sinclair and dmac, the rest ALL fell away in the last

Billings was average all day and has barely trained all year. He's no right and it's not his fault they play him. I suspect if we had a healthier list we may not

I just have a quick observation re. Reading skills.

Plenty of room for improvement from some of the people posting in this thread

[Vortex]

Luke did what Luke does, goes missing when he is needed. I think his papers are still stamped and him playing well is for himself and his career.

[spert]

I think you will find the team was following the coach's instructions.

[skeptic]

I think you will find the team was following the coach's instructions.

Geeez that’s a disturbing thought!

Can you elaborate as to the what/why of that?

[spert]

I think you will find the team was following the coach's instructions.

Geeez that’s a disturbing thought!

Can you elaborate as to the what/why of that?

It looked obvious to me that a couple of players including Dunny were standing off in a more defensive role off the play, and not playing the same attacking game they were for three quarters mostly. Ratts did as he did in the Crows game, and also what Richo used to do..when we have a winning lead, go defensive and go into protect mode. This is fine as long as the opposition don't vary how they have been playing- if the opposition decide to have a crack, go total offensive and throw caution to the wind, this all comes unstuck. I bet you wont see him use this tactic again.

[cwrcyn]

Pendelbury had been playing with broken ribs the last few weeks. He would still be really sore.

[skeptic]

I think you will find the team was following the coach's instructions.

Geeez that’s a disturbing thought!

Can you elaborate as to the what/why of that?

It looked obvious to me that a couple of players including Dunny were standing off in a more defensive role off the play, and not playing the same attacking game they were for three quarters mostly. Ratts did as he did in the Crows game, and also what Richo used to do..when we have a winning lead, go defensive and go into protect mode. This is fine as long as the opposition don't vary how they have been playing- if the opposition decide to have a crack, go total offensive and throw caution to the wind, this all comes unstuck. I bet you wont see him use this tactic again.

I hope not because it’s an absolute stinker of a strategy. Not that the game was seriously in danger (though it got close) all we needed was 1-2 goals in the last quarter and any hope of a comeback would have been completely snuffed out

[The_Dud]

Luke did what Luke does, goes missing when he is needed. I think his papers are still stamped and him playing well is for himself and his career.

Got votes from both coaches... again.

Yep, better get rid of him!

[saynta]

Luke did what Luke does, goes missing when he is needed. I think his papers are still stamped and him playing well is for himself and his career.

[CURLY]

Luke is a keeper he is playing his role really well. In saying that if I was GC Geelong or Sydney I'd be all over him. Those grounds and the conditions would suit him perfectly.

[samuraisaint]

2019 R22 – 10m Q2 – 24 pts up on Carlton, lose by 10. Outscored by 34 pts in 79 mins.
2019 R23 – 15m Q3 – 3 pts up on Sydney, lose by 45. Outscored by 48 pts in 44 mins.
2020 R1 – 7m Q3 – 31 pts up on North Melbourne, lose by 2. Outscored by 33 pts in 41 mins.
2020 R6 – 4m Q2 – 37 pts up on Fremantle, lose by 6. Outscored by 43 pts in 74 mins.
2020 R17 – 14m Q4 – 8 pts up on West Coast, lose by 15. Outscored by 23 pts in 13 mins.
2020 EF – 22m Q3 – 26 pts up on Western Bulldogs, win by 3. Outscored by 23 pts in 25 mins.
2021 R2 – 18m Q2 – 16 pts up on Melbourne, lose by 18. Outscored by 34 pts in 73 mins.
2021 R9 – 14m Q3 – 3 pts up on Geelong, lose by 21. Outscored by 24 pts in 42 mins.
2021 R11 – 12m Q4 – 44 pts up on North Melbourne, win by 20. Outscored by 24 pts in 18 mins.
2021 R13 – 3m Q3 – 36 pts up on Adelaide, lose by 6. Outscored by 42 pts in 63 mins.
2021 R15 – 30m Q3 – 49 pts up on Collingwood, win by 9. Outscored by 40 pts in 31 mins.

That's 11 times under Brett Ratten that we've been unable to stop opposition momentum from a winning position.

That's once every 3.5 games.

Mental weakness just seems a part of this group.

Wow - comprehensive list there. Looking at it glass half full, you could say that at least we were in all of these matches up to our necks. Now we need to put strategies in place to really crush teams when we have them beaten, or at the very least, kill the game, so that they can't come back.

Bit of a stretch with regards to a few of the matches you have listed though - the Sydney (2019) and Geelong ones we were never in a strong winning position as we never actually controlled the games in a real sense, and in the final against the 'Dogs I always felt we were safe.

It definitely needs to be addressed though, because sometimes it appears as though we offer no opposition when teams get a run on against us. The Dockers and North games last year and the Crows game a few weeks ago are the real stand outs for mine. They probably need to actually spend their main training session for the next few weeks at least focusing on a team strategy to combat this, because the team as a collective seem to offer no resistance when it happens.

[kosifantutti]

2019 R22 – 10m Q2 – 24 pts up on Carlton, lose by 10. Outscored by 34 pts in 79 mins.
2019 R23 – 15m Q3 – 3 pts up on Sydney, lose by 45. Outscored by 48 pts in 44 mins.
2020 R1 – 7m Q3 – 31 pts up on North Melbourne, lose by 2. Outscored by 33 pts in 41 mins.
2020 R6 – 4m Q2 – 37 pts up on Fremantle, lose by 6. Outscored by 43 pts in 74 mins.
2020 R17 – 14m Q4 – 8 pts up on West Coast, lose by 15. Outscored by 23 pts in 13 mins.
2020 EF – 22m Q3 – 26 pts up on Western Bulldogs, win by 3. Outscored by 23 pts in 25 mins.
2021 R2 – 18m Q2 – 16 pts up on Melbourne, lose by 18. Outscored by 34 pts in 73 mins.
2021 R9 – 14m Q3 – 3 pts up on Geelong, lose by 21. Outscored by 24 pts in 42 mins.
2021 R11 – 12m Q4 – 44 pts up on North Melbourne, win by 20. Outscored by 24 pts in 18 mins.
2021 R13 – 3m Q3 – 36 pts up on Adelaide, lose by 6. Outscored by 42 pts in 63 mins.
2021 R15 – 30m Q3 – 49 pts up on Collingwood, win by 9. Outscored by 40 pts in 31 mins.

That's 11 times under Brett Ratten that we've been unable to stop opposition momentum from a winning position.

That's once every 3.5 games.

Mental weakness just seems a part of this group.

There have been some go the other way.

Port 2020 5 points down 14 minutes in the 3rd. Won by 29. +34 points
GWS 2020 11 points up at half time, won by 52, +41
WCE 2021 33 points down, 22 minutes in the 3rd, won by 20, +53
GC 2021 16 points down, 29 minutes in the 3rd, won by 9, +25

[tony74]

I think you will find the team was following the coach's instructions.

Absolutely, 100% incorrect.

[Vortex]

I think you will find the team was following the coach's instructions.

Absolutely, 100% incorrect.

That 4th quarter is purely on the players.

[Vortex]

Luke is a keeper he is playing his role really well. In saying that if I was GC Geelong or Sydney I'd be all over him. Those grounds and the conditions would suit him perfectly.

Possibly a keeper for depth. It's great that the coaches gave him votes too because that pumps up his trade value.

[CURLY]

Luke is a keeper he is playing his role really well. In saying that if I was GC Geelong or Sydney I'd be all over him. Those grounds and the conditions would suit him perfectly.

Possibly a keeper for depth. It's great that the coaches gave him votes too because that pumps up his trade value.

Yeah that's what other clubs would be going off. They don't even need to watch players just check the votes.

[Vortex]

Luke is a keeper he is playing his role really well. In saying that if I was GC Geelong or Sydney I'd be all over him. Those grounds and the conditions would suit him perfectly.

Possibly a keeper for depth. It's great that the coaches gave him votes too because that pumps up his trade value.

Yeah that's what other clubs would be going off. They don't even need to watch players just check the votes.

I agree Curly, here's me thinking coaches would have some sought of respect for what other coaches think but then again only the coaches would know that all the award systems in AFL are compromised and purely exist for the fans and commercial reasons.

[B.M]

I reckon we will try to keep Luke and he will walk

He is playing with a point to prove

His on camera interviews have almost been aggressive

[Vortex]

I reckon we will try to keep Luke and he will walk

He is playing with a point to prove

His on camera interviews have almost been aggressive

A hypothetical: how long before his current attitude dilutes to normal levels as displayed for the majority of his time in the AFL system, i. e. is his recent form sustainable?

It's clear he's playing to save his career, and in a way that would be frustrating if you were Ratts.

We can't have too many players on the list that regularly go missing in games as he did in the 4th against the Pies it is the issue that has dogged this list long before this season and continues to do so.

I was a massive supporter of Dunny and would always jump to his defence but that all changed after the Tiges thrashing. He's had considerable chances and I think it's time to trade him out and try someone new. I don't think he can sustain his current form...or anger.

[Scollop]

I think you will find the team was following the coach's instructions.

Absolutely, 100% incorrect.

There’s a lack of confidence and an inability to finish off games and I think we stopped playing as a team and started playing some selfish footy. You can’t finish off games or really take advantage of your scoreboard lead when you play as individuals.

Our ball use and our i50 conversion has to be among the lowest in the competition. I don’t think we’re anywhere near the top 4 teams. We got 9 goals up because Collingwood are terrible, not because we’re playing champagne footy

There was a thread about culture a few weeks back and I’m still trying to work out what this team stands for. I feel there is a disconnect and I think the fact that we have gone through so many list changes at the end of 2019 and at the end of last year is probably the main reason. The hub factor last year was like a training camp and credit to the leadership and to Ratts for such an outstanding result in 2020

Getting back to the match on the week end, I thought there were some signs early in the last quarter where there was finger pointing and players looking to blame someone for fumbles or missed tackles or goals being scored. It’s no big deal but when you add the fact that we don’t look for the best option at times, I reckon there’s some selfishness which needs to be ironed out.

We aren’t going to beat the top teams going forward unless we play selfless team footy. Don’t kick or handball to someone because he’s your mate. Kick or pass the footy to the player that is in the best position to move the footy for us to score. We have to provide an inclusive and supportive culture for the players to improve as individuals and for the whole playing list to grow and get better together