How many players on our list fit the standard of a top four team?

[cwrcyn]

After this bewildering start to 2021, our minds start to wonder just what is the level of talent we have assembled in recent years. How many players, WHEN FIT, can we depend on to deliver against a top four team in a big game

I'll rank them in order of being able to deliver. See what you think

1. Steele
2. Ryder
3. Hannebery
4. Marshall
5. Howard
6. Membrey
7. Paton
8. Wilkie
9. Billings
10.Geary
11. Clark
12. Crouch
13. Jones
14. Butler
15. Gresham
16. Ross
17. King
18. Coffield
19. Higgins
29. Hill
21. Battle
22.. Carlisle
23. Sinclair
24. Long
24. Webster
25. Lonie

[MickThomas]

Nah...i would have Jones, Butler, Higgins, Battle much higher.
Wilkie, Billings, Geary, well down the list.
Wilkie isn't an A-Grader. He does work hard, but he's part of a double act with Howard.
He can't perform without Dougal

[cwrcyn]

Double act?

Batman & Robin?
Fred & Barney?

[MickThomas]

Double act?

Batman & Robin?
Fred & Barney?

Watch Wilkie go one-on-one for contested ground ball. He can get caught easily if he gets there first.
Gets flustered looking for a team-mate to handball it to.
Where he works with Dougal, is in a pack mark, Wilkie uses body in the pack to affect the oppo in the pack, letting Dougal come over the back for a mark, not a spoil.
Pay attention.
They rehearse this heaps of times at training to get it right.

[sunsaint]

After this bewildering start to 2021, our minds start to wonder just what is the level of talent we have assembled in recent years. How many players, WHEN FIT, can we depend on to deliver against a top four team in a big game

I applaud the effort
I know you emphasized WHEN FIT
if any team came sniffing around DH I would have him in a Taxi so fast his head would spin
I know its going to upset a lot of people but its fairly easy too look good when the whole team is flying
But he hasnt helped us get over the line in many games this year

[cwrcyn]

I suppose I should have posed the question..."Who is least likely to go missing when the heat is on?"

[Scollop]

If the head of our football program (data guy David Rath ) produced a list and it was substantiated with numbers and statistics to justify where everyone is positioned, then I’d look at it and give it credibility. But I don’t think they’d waste their time with hypotheticals

Let’s focus on recent form to judge our players...And

...the 2020 Trevor Barker Award.

Jack Steele – 207 votes
Dan Butler – 126 votes
Dougal Howard – 122 votes
Rowan Marshall – 120 votes
Nick Coffield – 119 votes
Zak Jones – 117 votes
Callum Wilkie – 113 votes
Paddy Ryder – 107 votes
Hunter Clark – 100 votes
Sebastian Ross – 92 votes

So...perhaps we’ve missed Marshall more than we’ve missed Paddy

We’ve also missed Gears for his leadership. He’s a role model as far as work rate and courage and the ability to impact every contest. But he’s more than that. He’s a Saint through and through and he represents the club and the jumper with honour and with a competitive spirit that is lacking from some of his team mates at the moment

[B.M]

Hasn’t Hill been in a top 4 team?!

Actually, he’s been in a Top 1 team - Three times

Crouch was a part of a Crows midfield that finished on top and were Grand Finalists

Hannebery is broken, but he’s also played in 2 Grand Finals so he has the ability to play in a top team if fit. Jones was also at Sydney which was a top team.

Steele & Marshall would walk into any top 4 team, as would Billings, Howard, Ross, Membrey - depending on what that team needed?!

We do have some players that would not make a top 4 team at the moment... again depending on which team?

[WellardSaint]

Scollop, I normally love reading your posts, which are usually insightful, and sometimes humorous.

However, this time I disagree with you.
I don't think for one minute, that awards can indicate the worth of a player, whether it's a club award, Brownlow, or whatever.
Dunstan got a vote in Rd 1 last year.

A player like Ryder might not be streets ahead of some other team-mates in games, but there have been several instances where his actions have resulted in goals, and turnovers, etc.

Other players who don't really poll well in awards, not just our team either, will be incredibly valuable to their respective team, and always be first picked, or at least best 22.

I don't put any weight on votes

[cwrcyn]

1. There are players who soak up pressure and have the determination and ability to impact the game or stand tall in the face of adversity. Their concentration doesn't break.

2. Then there are players who can bring that intensity sometimes, but not always. Their concentration can fluctuate, and their confidence can be affected

The players at the top of my list are those I think meet the the qualities in paragraph one.

The players at the bottom of my list fit more into paragraph two.

I'm happy to be corrected. It is an opinion after all , and I'm happy to accept different points of view on this

[shanegrambeau]

I suppose Gresham and Billings would be picked up by a top tier team and be in their starting 22....just

Other than that, only MArshall, Steele, Hill would be guaranteed walk up starts in a top team - say a Richmond. maybe Dougal Howard too. Membrey, Hunter Clark would be fringe players, Butler too. I suspect Max King would still be in the seconds learning to kick - but a bright prospect.

Paton and Coffield emergencies.

BTW My Criteria is this....

YOu merge St Kilda with anyone of the top four teams and pick a team. One team from two lists.

[Yorkeys]

How many do you need? Is the puzzle in the question looking at 2020 final 4 sides (or does it mean current provisional top 4 teams) i.e. how many of our list would be picked up by those teams if they could do swaps with no transactional costs and it was allowed by the rules and contractual obligations. Well at the start of the year, plenty would be the answer. Possibly our perplexing start and two terrible performances actually highlights the absolute need for competitive Ruckmen and a class CHB in the AFL comp - or whatever you would like to call a 6ft 4in tough defender that does not play full back. The Saints brain trust was blindsided badly by the Ryder/Marshall situation, tried to find solutions and failed abysmally - however perhaps there was no possible short term solution to that catastrophe. Possibly the huge structural flaw of no credible rucks means inevitable floggings in the jungle of AFL. The capacity of others in the team to mitigate that is limited because it is a team game and the team members are rational humans not kamikaze pilots. I am as gutted as most with the way the season has gone so far but think blaming certain players for a fatal structural flaw is unfair. Although some efforts under pressure have been pretty insipid and I am sure noted for the future. I'd blame our brains trust for complacency in not have a good 3rd ruck option. If we had Goldstein on our list we would probably have at least won one more game and have a much better percentage. I think we are letting recruiting and others off a bit light by shrugging and saying you cant help bad luck, two rucks unavailable, who would have thought - well WCE and Swans for two.

[mad saint guy]

Watch Wilkie go one-on-one for contested ground ball. He can get caught easily if he gets there first.
Gets flustered looking for a team-mate to handball it to.

I'd say the exact opposite about Wilkie. He's just about the coolest head in a contested situation in the opposition 50. He's a master of getting to the footy first, not letting it spill out and not conceding a HTB free kick. Always does enough to convince the ump that there was an effort to dispose of the ball but never lets the opposition actually get it.

[CURLY]

Marshall
Steele
Billings
King
Howard
Clarke
Membrey
Crouch
Hill
Coffield
Wilkie
Gresham

Would all play if at a top 4 side.

[shanegrambeau]

Marshall
Steele
Billings
King
Howard
Clarke
Membrey
Crouch
Hill
Coffield
Wilkie
Gresham

Would all play if at a top 4 side.

Curly,
With all due respect, how, possibly could you fit these 12 players into one of the top four sides this weekend.
Nominate a top four team, and show me the 12 players in that current top four team, that will make way, given all selectors and both coaches have to nominate, risking life and limb, for the likes of Wilkie, Couch, Membrey, Clark...even King!

I bet you’d have trouble squeezing three in. And tell me, which players in that one top four team, get bumped for it.

[MickThomas]

Watch Wilkie go one-on-one for contested ground ball. He can get caught easily if he gets there first.
Gets flustered looking for a team-mate to handball it to.

I'd say the exact opposite about Wilkie. He's just about the coolest head in a contested situation in the opposition 50. He's a master of getting to the footy first, not letting it spill out and not conceding a HTB free kick. Always does enough to convince the ump that there was an effort to dispose of the ball but never lets the opposition actually get it.

The club rates him highly, as do you, so perhaps I'm being far too pessimistic and cynical.
I will watch him with great interest this Sunday, but won't wear my 'cynic' brand glasses this time

[mad saint guy]

The club rates him highly, as do you, so perhaps I'm being far too pessimistic and cynical.
I will watch him with great interest this Sunday, but won't wear my 'cynic' brand glasses this time

He has definitely been more under the pump this year playing as an undersized key defender and coping with a constant stream of fast inside 50's through the corridor, but I think he's been solid. The ground ball particularly is a strength that has held up well IMO. Get some defensive support from the midfield and play Carlisle at CHB and I think we'll see Wilkie at his best.

[CURLY]

Marshall
Steele
Billings
King
Howard
Clarke
Membrey
Crouch
Hill
Coffield
Wilkie
Gresham

Would all play if at a top 4 side.

Curly,
With all due respect, how, possibly could you fit these 12 players into one of the top four sides this weekend.
Nominate a top four team, and show me the 12 players in that current top four team, that will make way, given all selectors and both coaches have to nominate, risking life and limb, for the likes of Wilkie, Couch, Membrey, Clark...even King!

I bet you’d have trouble squeezing three in. And tell me, which players in that one top four team, get bumped for it.

If each player went to a top 4 club not the entire 12 all would individually get a game. Members is elite in his particular position as is Marshall so they are no brainers. Steele is a walk up as is Billings Clark and Howard. The Western Bulldogs would love Howard in their back 6.

[shanegrambeau]

Marshall
Steele
Billings
King
Howard
Clarke
Membrey
Crouch
Hill
Coffield
Wilkie
Gresham

Would all play if at a top 4 side.

Curly,
With all due respect, how, possibly could you fit these 12 players into one of the top four sides this weekend.
Nominate a top four team, and show me the 12 players in that current top four team, that will make way, given all selectors and both coaches have to nominate, risking life and limb, for the likes of Wilkie, Couch, Membrey, Clark...even King!

I bet you’d have trouble squeezing three in. And tell me, which players in that one top four team, get bumped for it.

If each player went to a top 4 club not the entire 12 all would individually get a game. Members is elite in his particular position as is Marshall so they are no brainers. Steele is a walk up as is Billings Clark and Howard. The Western Bulldogs would love Howard in their back 6.

So then, you are basically suggesting that these twelve are all Australians?

I thought the object of the exercise was to determine how many players would get a gig in a top four team. And I looked at the top four teams and I’m scatching my head to find space for even a few of them.

[shanegrambeau]

Marshall
Steele
Billings
King
Howard
Clarke
Membrey
Crouch
Hill
Coffield
Wilkie
Gresham

Would all play if at a top 4 side.

Curly,
With all due respect, how, possibly could you fit these 12 players into one of the top four sides this weekend.
Nominate a top four team, and show me the 12 players in that current top four team, that will make way, given all selectors and both coaches have to nominate, risking life and limb, for the likes of Wilkie, Couch, Membrey, Clark...even King!

I bet you’d have trouble squeezing three in. And tell me, which players in that one top four team, get bumped for it.

If each player went to a top 4 club not the entire 12 all would individually get a game. Members is elite in his particular position as is Marshall so they are no brainers. Steele is a walk up as is Billings Clark and Howard. The Western Bulldogs would love Howard in their back 6.

So then, you are basically suggesting that these twelve are all Australians?

I thought the object of the exercise was to determine how many players would get a gig in a top four team. And I looked at the top four teams and I’m scatching my head to find space for even a few of them.

[B.M]

Well if the entire 12 went to one club, they’d be over the Salary Cap?!

Unless they replace their good players, and then they would get a game??

You couldn't have 12 of our best players replacing bottom 12 players at a top 4 club, say Richmond.

You couldn’t even fit just Jack Steele into their cap

[CURLY]

Marshall
Steele
Billings
King
Howard
Clarke
Membrey
Crouch
Hill
Coffield
Wilkie
Gresham

Would all play if at a top 4 side.

Curly,
With all due respect, how, possibly could you fit these 12 players into one of the top four sides this weekend.
Nominate a top four team, and show me the 12 players in that current top four team, that will make way, given all selectors and both coaches have to nominate, risking life and limb, for the likes of Wilkie, Couch, Membrey, Clark...even King!

I bet you’d have trouble squeezing three in. And tell me, which players in that one top four team, get bumped for it.

If each player went to a top 4 club not the entire 12 all would individually get a game. Members is elite in his particular position as is Marshall so they are no brainers. Steele is a walk up as is Billings Clark and Howard. The Western Bulldogs would love Howard in their back 6.

So then, you are basically suggesting that these twelve are all Australians?

I thought the object of the exercise was to determine how many players would get a gig in a top four team. And I looked at the top four teams and I’m scatching my head to find space for even a few of them.

The question is which ones so if those blokes left and went to a top 4 club they'ed all get a game.

[B.M]

Bruce wasn’t a top ten player at the Saints, we were happy to trade him. He’s getting a game at the Dogs who nearly on top.

It depends on needs of a club.

Nathan Broad is s***, and he gets a game at Richmond
Coffield, Wilkie, Clarke all much better players

[Scollop]

Good point B.M

I didn't rate Sean Dempster at all in 2009 and 2010. He was in and out of the team during the home and away rounds and didn’t quite cement a spot ...or a position on the filed that he was comfortable in. We know that Sean Dempster became a very good defender for us, but he played in both Grand Finals and he got the callup as a forward!!

Armo and Jack Steven were sitting in the stands in the finals series in 2009 and 2010

Robert Eddy also made a few Grand Finals when we were the best team going around

It’s all hypothetical about who would fit into a top 4 team and who is rated higher than someone else. This is a team game. In a team situation and in a critical moment, someone like Dan McKenzie can inspire the team to get a win.

Everyone should be rated equally if they are selected to play. Everyone should be respected for the role that they play and not just judged on possessions and statistics.

[cwrcyn]

It's all about who can be depended on when the whips get cracking. You don't have to be an elite talent (Geary, for example), but it's about energy, effort at all times, the commitment to team first, and ball use/decision-making. An AFL standard player doing all those things is what the coaches are looking for. Jason Blake is a fine example. Never elite, but when it was hot in kitchen he never let his coach down.