Ratts v Richo

[freely]

We know our players can play - we've seen them do it elsewhere! So it's all about attitude. If we were selecting based on attitude, Dunstan, DMac and Long would be right up there and Parker would still be on the list. This shower have been brought in on the promise of playing out their days on good money without having to work too hard. As has been said countless times, they looked at Hannebery and said "you beauty"! No fan of Lyon but remember what he managed to do with Clinton Jones?

[samuraisaint]

We know our players can play - we've seen them do it elsewhere! So it's all about attitude. If we were selecting based on attitude, Dunstan, DMac and Long would be right up there and Parker would still be on the list. This shower have been brought in on the promise of playing out their days on good money without having to work too hard. As has been said countless times, they looked at Hannebery and said "you beauty"! No fan of Lyon but remember what he managed to do with Clinton Jones?

And it isn't just the players we've brought in, but the players we let go who are now performing at their new clubs.
You're right, it is just about the attitude.
Get that right this week and we will give it a real shake.

[B.M]

Wow, didn’t know that?

Did they progress?

[samuraisaint]

Wow, didn’t know that?

Did they progress?

in 2009 they lost to the Lions in Brisbane by just 7 points in an elimination final at the Gabba (Qld).
In 2010 they lost to the Swans in Sydney by only 5 points in an Elimination Final at ANZ stadium (NSW).
In 2011 they beat Essendon by 62 points in the Elimination final at the MCG (Vic) then lost to the Eagles in Perth at Subiaco by 3 points (WA) (my mistake but still a great effort)
In 2013 they beat Richmond at the MCG by 20 points (Vic) then lost to Sydney at ANZ stadium in Sydney again by four goals in a semi final.

My point is, Carlton back then didn't have the talent we do now, they had finished second last in 2007, and since then Ratten spent five years at Hawthorn under Clarkson and they won premierships during his employment there. Under him, we improved in the last few games of 2019 and won our first final in a decade last year, so I am prepared to back his judgement.

[oboe]

It was under Lyon in 2008 ans we were underperforming as a Football Club.

He dropped Dal Santo and Milne, and from there, the side never looked back.

I don't agree with dropping six players, but Ratten needs to make a point - at the very least, drop Hill. At the moment its all about attitude, and if players aren't ready to commit, the axe has to fall.

[Vortex]

It sounds like many supporters are in agreement with regards to how to approach selection this week and beyond and that is to keep playing mostly the same players as there is nowhere to hide on an AFL field. Let the club let US watch them even try and dish up the same crap they served up last week and not walk off the field without some over-the-fence feedback. Let us be the ones that dish out the old fire and brimstone and Ratts can provide the cuddles.

[samuraisaint]

It was under Lyon in 2008 ans we were underperforming as a Football Club.

He dropped Dal Santo and Milne, and from there, the side never looked back.

I don't agree with dropping six players, but Ratten needs to make a point - at the very least, drop Hill. At the moment its all about attitude, and if players aren't ready to commit, the axe has to fall.

Yes, because we had a proven top four team at that stage which was very experienced and we had leaders like Rob Harvey, Nick Riewoldt and Lenny Hayes too.
When Richo dropped Billings for one week a few years ago, how did that pan out? I agree with your point, and I'm not trying to be disingenuous here, but I don't want us to drop important players just when we are facing a tough block of three games. We have had a very disrupted pre-season by the looks of it, and many of these players haven't played with each other. I believe it has been the ruck issue, along with injuries/suspension in the midfield which has unsettled the balance of the side and this might work itself out over the next few matches if we drop only the players we know are only there as depth or who are injured.
IMO we need to play our strongest team on player. And I believe that Bytel is now in our best 22 too.
Sometimes sides just click.

[Ghost Like]

Wow, didn’t know that?

Did they progress?

in 2009 they lost to the Lions in Brisbane by just 7 points in an elimination final at the Gabba (Qld).
In 2010 they lost to the Swans in Sydney by only 5 points in an Elimination Final at ANZ stadium (NSW).
In 2011 they beat Essendon by 62 points in the Elimination final at the MCG (Vic) then lost to the Eagles in Perth at Subiaco by 3 points (WA) (my mistake but still a great effort)
In 2013 they beat Richmond at the MCG by 20 points (Vic) then lost to Sydney at ANZ stadium in Sydney again by four goals in a semi final.

My point is, Carlton back then didn't have the talent we do now, they had finished second last in 2007, and since then Ratten spent five years at Hawthorn under Clarkson and they won premierships during his employment there. Under him, we improved in the last few games of 2019 and won our first final in a decade last year, so I am prepared to back his judgement.

Well said Samurai. It appears some research goes a long way on a forum.

[oboe]

It was under Lyon in 2008 ans we were underperforming as a Football Club.

He dropped Dal Santo and Milne, and from there, the side never looked back.

I don't agree with dropping six players, but Ratten needs to make a point - at the very least, drop Hill. At the moment its all about attitude, and if players aren't ready to commit, the axe has to fall.

Yes, because we had a proven top four team at that stage which was very experienced and we had leaders like Rob Harvey, Nick Riewoldt and Lenny Hayes too.
When Richo dropped Billings for one week a few years ago, how did that pan out? I agree with your point, and I'm not trying to be disingenuous here, but I don't want us to drop important players just when we are facing a tough block of three games. We have had a very disrupted pre-season by the looks of it, and many of these players haven't played with each other. I believe it has been the ruck issue, along with injuries/suspension in the midfield which has unsettled the balance of the side and this might work itself out over the next few matches if we drop only the players we know are only there as depth or who are injured.
IMO we need to play our strongest team on player. And I believe that Bytel is now in our best 22 too.
Sometimes sides just click.

Actually we did not have a proven top 4 side. In 06 we went out first week of the finals. In 07, we finished ninth, an when both Dal Santo and Milne were dropped 9n R13, we were 10th - we certainly didn’t look like a final 8 side, let alone a top 4 side.

What Lyon did was make a statement. If your top players just are not putting in, you drop them. It’s a wake up call to the whole side - no matter what your reputation is or how much money you are on - if you don’t perform over a period of time, you’re out.

[Scollop]

It was under Lyon in 2008 ans we were underperforming as a Football Club.

He dropped Dal Santo and Milne, and from there, the side never looked back.

I don't agree with dropping six players, but Ratten needs to make a point - at the very least, drop Hill. At the moment its all about attitude, and if players aren't ready to commit, the axe has to fall.

Yes, because we had a proven top four team at that stage which was very experienced and we had leaders like Rob Harvey, Nick Riewoldt and Lenny Hayes too.
When Richo dropped Billings for one week a few years ago, how did that pan out? I agree with your point, and I'm not trying to be disingenuous here, but I don't want us to drop important players just when we are facing a tough block of three games. We have had a very disrupted pre-season by the looks of it, and many of these players haven't played with each other. I believe it has been the ruck issue, along with injuries/suspension in the midfield which has unsettled the balance of the side and this might work itself out over the next few matches if we drop only the players we know are only there as depth or who are injured.
IMO we need to play our strongest team on player. And I believe that Bytel is now in our best 22 too.
Sometimes sides just click.

Actually we did not have a proven top 4 side. In 06 we went out first week of the finals. In 07, we finished ninth, an when both Dal Santo and Milne were dropped 9n R13, we were 10th - we certainly didn’t look like a final 8 side, let alone a top 4 side.

What Lyon did was make a statement. If your top players just are not putting in, you drop them. It’s a wake up call to the whole side - no matter what your reputation is or how much money you are on - if you don’t perform over a period of time, you’re out.

That’s semantics. If you’re not going to call the 06/07 team a proven top 4 side, that’s like saying that the Hawks team in 09/10 were not a proven premiership line up.

We were prelim finalists 2 years in a row in 04/05. The previous poster who used the term ‘proven top 4 side’ mentioned the leaders and players who were part of the core and played in those prelims. The majority of that list from 04/05 was still there.

[Ghost Like]

Bottom Line for those missing the point was Ratten had the nouse to get some under performers into some finals. He has the acumen to advance us, we now need our recruiters to listen to him.

Richo & Ratts is like Bambi & Rudolph.

[B.M]

Do you reckon with the list and injuries we had we underperformed from 13-18

[Ghost Like]

Do you reckon with the list and injuries we had we underperformed from 13-18

Who are you talking to? Meat & Potatoes?????

Do you believe Ratten got Carlton to multiple finals? Please let us know where you are at and who you are talking to.

[Scollop]

Do you reckon with the list and injuries we had we underperformed from 13-18

So...let’s dissect and anaylyse and compare the Saints list from 13-18 against the Blues list from 07-12....Or let’s not!!

Bottom line is that Carlton were rebuilding under Ratts and so were we under Cho. Ratten made finals. Cho didn’t.

When you have a coach for as long as we had Cho, you cannot hide or escape from the disaster that unfolded in 2018. Richo needs to own it.

The Richo fans need to understand that his record speaks for itself.

What was that win loss ration again?

[B.M]

Didn’t Carlton have 3 straight #1 draft picks in 2005-2007

Arrival of Chris Judd

But yes, Ratts did a pretty good job with Carlton

Their decision to sack him was costly

[SaintPav]

Ask some of the players what they thought of Richo.

[WellardSaint]

Ratts doesn't like Jake. For whatever reason.
But the other lazy ones all get a free pass?
See, he *can* drop a guy to send a message.
But he's selective.
Man up, Ratts, drop Butler, Lonie, Hill, Sinclair...
Not just Jake.
Make a damn statement

[Yorkeys]

Ratts is a great coach and we need him more than ever now. We just have lost seriously important irreplaceable players to injury and with that the excellent dynamic last year's side had. New recruits yet to jell, but Higgins looks v. good. Clark in the middle not working yet, hopefully soon come because he was playing great at half back and that's a big opportunity cost. The Hannebery and Jones boys are hardly useful recruits and to have two key mids ineffective is something that can't be covered in short term; Crouch third time lucky?. (I guiltily admit I was pleased when I read Joffa's post the Hannebery retired, really punked me.) The team looks overwhelmed by the situation and can't cope with cohesive opposition team work and our new found loss of talent. I think they would like to try harder but are not sure what to do from play to play. Ratts is earning his keep these days, that's for sure. Chin up Brett we are with you, for what that's worth.

[takeaway]

Do you reckon with the list and injuries we had we underperformed from 13-18

So...let’s dissect and anaylyse and compare the Saints list from 13-18 against the Blues list from 07-12....Or let’s not!!

Bottom line is that Carlton were rebuilding under Ratts and so were we under Cho. Ratten made finals. Cho didn’t.

When you have a coach for as long as we had Cho, you cannot hide or escape from the disaster that unfolded in 2018. Richo needs to own it.

The Richo fans need to understand that his record speaks for itself.

What was that win loss ration again?

A touch above Ratts' win loss for this year.

Ratts enjoyed a very good honeymoon year last year during the artificial covid season, surprising the comp with a new game plan, although it seemed to "run out of puff" somewhat towards the end of the year as teams found solutions to negate it. A very good Ryder inspired finals win though.

Still, Ratt's is a better coach (he is, isn't he?), has better coaching support, and a better playing list, so I'm hopeful he can get his win loss back towards 50% this year. Really needs to win at least one of the next three though. Finals unlikely it would seem, probably much the same as 2016 and 2017 under Richo.

Over to you, Ratts.

[samoht]

I can't accept that our players didn't try/were lazy ... we were beaten by a better team that was suited to the "opened up" game. Essendon have quicker and more skilled payers overall, who combined, spread and ran better.

This would explain the huge discrepancy in "uncontested" possessions.

There will be sides who will be too quick and skilled for us this year.
This has nothing to do with attitude or who the coach is.

Does our midfield run and spread? ... that's where you need your best and most skilled playmakers.
Who are our skilled, midfield runners/playmakers?

It gets back to our recruiters.

[B.M]

If I asked the players what they thought of Richo, they’d play a straight bat. Why would they tell a random what they really think - particularly if it’s going to be derogatory

If I asked them what they think of Ratts - of course they are going to be positive about the current coach (most probably truthfully)

I too think Ratts is a good coach. He coached very well last season! Possibly coach of the year IMO

I also think playing stocks is more important than head coaches
(Not to say anyone can coach successfully)
But good lists can make a coach look good
Poor lists can make a coach look bad

[samoht]

I also think playing stocks is more important than head coaches
(Not to say anyone can coach successfully)
But good lists can make a coach look good
Poor lists can make a coach look bad

Exactly.
Coaches are just the cherries on top of the large cake.

And, in our case, the cake's dry and was only half-baked by our dilletantish recruiters.

[samoht]

I also think playing stocks is more important than head coaches
(Not to say anyone can coach successfully)
But good lists can make a coach look good
Poor lists can make a coach look bad

Exactly.
Coaches are just the cherries on top of the large cake.

And, in our case, the cake's dry, stodgy and was only half-baked by our dilettantish recruiters.

[saynta]

Ratts doesn't like Jake. For whatever reason.
But the other lazy ones all get a free pass?
See, he *can* drop a guy to send a message.
But he's selective.
Man up, Ratts, drop Butler, Lonie, Hill, Sinclair...
Not just Jake.
Make a damn statement

Did Ratts tell you he doesn't like Jake or is that just your opinion based on the crap that has been posted on this forum?

You are posting rumours as fact imhfo.

[B.M]

Not sure if he likes him or not - irrelevant

But he obviously thinks he’s lacking something as a key defender