They manipulated the draft and broke AFL rules in doing so.longtimesaint wrote: ↑Wed 19 Aug 2020 4:11pm Watching Open Mike didn’t make me feel warm to Ball.
The players at that time had a pact to stick together until they achieved the second premiership.
He bailed out on that agreement and went to arch rivals giving them intel to help to bring us down.
The whole thing stinks that every club left it to Collingwood at pick 30!
I wish we had chosen Judd and we would have been premiers then.
Open Mike Luke Ball
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
NO IFS OR BUTS HARVS IS KING OF THE AFL
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
IIRC
We had virtually agreed with Collingwood that they would give us their pick #12 for Ball.
Then along came Ball's manager Paul Connors with another client that Collingwood wanted (Darren Jolly) and pick #12 went to Sydney.
We told Collingwood we didn't want either Goldsack or Wellingham but a pick. We told them we wanted a pick in the early 20's at least.
Collingwood tried to trade Wellingham to NM for one of their early 20's picks but NM didnt want him either.
Ball then publicly stated he would not play for anybody else and the Draft was effectively rigged so that he got through to Collingwood's pick #30.
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
The AFL allowed massive draft tampering but turned a blind eye.Mr Magic wrote: ↑Wed 19 Aug 2020 4:18pmIIRC
We had virtually agreed with Collingwood that they would give us their pick #12 for Ball.
Then along came Ball's manager Paul Connors with another client that Collingwood wanted (Darren Jolly) and pick #12 went to Sydney.
We told Collingwood we didn't want either Goldsack or Wellingham but a pick. We told them we wanted a pick in the early 20's at least.
Collingwood tried to trade Wellingham to NM for one of their early 20's picks but NM didnt want him either.
Ball then publicly stated he would not play for anybody else and the Draft was effectively rigged so that he got through to Collingwood's pick #30.
NO IFS OR BUTS HARVS IS KING OF THE AFL
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
We had enough list cloggers better off without Collingwood's rejects.Saintmatt wrote: ↑Wed 19 Aug 2020 4:02pmWhat? You're so seriously misguided as usual. And bloody disrespectful. The Pies offered us Goldsack or Wellingham and a pick. And we played hard(stupid) ball and ended up getting nothing. All because of Ross' ego. Fvcking disgraceful list and team management. How was this a disgrace and cheating and manipulative?
You really should just concentrate on whinging about umpires.
For the record - Luke is a phenomenal bloke and very much a Saints man. That he didn't carry on like a knob after the 2010 GF2 and answer MIke's direct question last night should tell you everything.
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
I think this is right but first sentence about a deal already been done might be a bit overstated. I don’t remember it that way.Mr Magic wrote: ↑Wed 19 Aug 2020 4:18pmIIRC
We had virtually agreed with Collingwood that they would give us their pick #12 for Ball.
Then along came Ball's manager Paul Connors with another client that Collingwood wanted (Darren Jolly) and pick #12 went to Sydney.
We told Collingwood we didn't want either Goldsack or Wellingham but a pick. We told them we wanted a pick in the early 20's at least.
Collingwood tried to trade Wellingham to NM for one of their early 20's picks but NM didnt want him either.
Ball then publicly stated he would not play for anybody else and the Draft was effectively rigged so that he got through to Collingwood's pick #30.
We really did get painted as the bad boys by the media.
Holder of unacceptable views and other thought crimes.
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
I think what often tends to get overlooked in this discussion is that RL made it clear to Ball that he personally, didn’t really rate/want Ball there.
This is evident in Mission’s book where they make it clear that they think he wouldn’t be able to get back to what he was and that he couldn’t run out games like they wanted him to.
Subsequently from mid-09 onwards his position comes under jeopardy and then in the GF, he’s rested for a 1/2 despite playing well in conditions that suited him.
If you’re Luke Ball, offer on the table or not... I don’t reckon you’ve got any choice but to leave.
The alarm bells are deafening
Who can make an argument that he did the wrong thing for himself?
He found a club that was willing to offer him a good deal and did what they wanted so they would take him as opposed to compromising that deal to pls the coach running him out of the club.
Very harsh to put all of this on Ball IMO
This is evident in Mission’s book where they make it clear that they think he wouldn’t be able to get back to what he was and that he couldn’t run out games like they wanted him to.
Subsequently from mid-09 onwards his position comes under jeopardy and then in the GF, he’s rested for a 1/2 despite playing well in conditions that suited him.
If you’re Luke Ball, offer on the table or not... I don’t reckon you’ve got any choice but to leave.
The alarm bells are deafening
Who can make an argument that he did the wrong thing for himself?
He found a club that was willing to offer him a good deal and did what they wanted so they would take him as opposed to compromising that deal to pls the coach running him out of the club.
Very harsh to put all of this on Ball IMO
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
WTF are you re-writing history? Ball did not bail-out. He left because Lyon told him from mid-year onwards that he wasn't in his plans as he couldn't spread at speed like his gameplan required. And then the dick doubled-down on that by not playing him in the last quarter of a grand final that suited him perfectly and that he'd played very well in up until 3/4 time.longtimesaint wrote: ↑Wed 19 Aug 2020 4:11pm Watching Open Mike didn’t make me feel warm to Ball.
The players at that time had a pact to stick together until they achieved the second premiership.
He bailed out on that agreement and went to arch rivals giving them intel to help to bring us down.
The whole thing stinks that every club left it to Collingwood at pick 30!
I wish we had chosen Judd and we would have been premiers then.
And then to prove it again - Lyon went and recruited Lovett! FFS.
Tell me - what did you want Luke to do? Stay at a club and play under a coach that had told him that he wasn't going to play him (and then sough to replace him with a speedy outside replacement)? You're utterly intellectually NQR if you think he should've stayed under those circumstances.
Go you red, black & white warriors
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
Wise words skeptic, your last sentence makes much sense but does not make it any easier to swallow. I think it hurts that he went to the club that beat us in the following year's GF. If he'd gone to Essendon like Goddard did, much more palatable.skeptic wrote: ↑Wed 19 Aug 2020 4:52pm I think what often tends to get overlooked in this discussion is that RL made it clear to Ball that he personally, didn’t really rate/want Ball there.
This is evident in Mission’s book where they make it clear that they think he wouldn’t be able to get back to what he was and that he couldn’t run out games like they wanted him to.
Subsequently from mid-09 onwards his position comes under jeopardy and then in the GF, he’s rested for a 1/2 despite playing well in conditions that suited him.
If you’re Luke Ball, offer on the table or not... I don’t reckon you’ve got any choice but to leave.
The alarm bells are deafening
Who can make an argument that he did the wrong thing for himself?
He found a club that was willing to offer him a good deal and did what they wanted so they would take him as opposed to compromising that deal to pls the coach running him out of the club.
Very harsh to put all of this on Ball IMO
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
Are you referring to the same two list cloggers that played for the Pies in their 2010 flag team .... AGAINST US? Goldsack was a bloody serviceable player who played another 8 goddamn years (last game 2018 GF). Wellingham had a reasonable next 7 YEARS at WCE.ace wrote: ↑Wed 19 Aug 2020 4:42pmWe had enough list cloggers better off without Collingwood's rejects.Saintmatt wrote: ↑Wed 19 Aug 2020 4:02pmWhat? You're so seriously misguided as usual. And bloody disrespectful. The Pies offered us Goldsack or Wellingham and a pick. And we played hard(stupid) ball and ended up getting nothing. All because of Ross' ego. Fvcking disgraceful list and team management. How was this a disgrace and cheating and manipulative?
You really should just concentrate on whinging about umpires.
For the record - Luke is a phenomenal bloke and very much a Saints man. That he didn't carry on like a knob after the 2010 GF2 and answer MIke's direct question last night should tell you everything.
How many more years did our bottom 5 list cloggers such as Eddy, Peake, McQualter, R Clarke etc play after 2009?
The fact we had so many list cloggers says everything about our shite drafting and even worse development.
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
I've got no issue with a player wanting to leave a Club to go to another, for whatever reason.skeptic wrote: ↑Wed 19 Aug 2020 4:52pm I think what often tends to get overlooked in this discussion is that RL made it clear to Ball that he personally, didn’t really rate/want Ball there.
This is evident in Mission’s book where they make it clear that they think he wouldn’t be able to get back to what he was and that he couldn’t run out games like they wanted him to.
Subsequently from mid-09 onwards his position comes under jeopardy and then in the GF, he’s rested for a 1/2 despite playing well in conditions that suited him.
If you’re Luke Ball, offer on the table or not... I don’t reckon you’ve got any choice but to leave.
The alarm bells are deafening
Who can make an argument that he did the wrong thing for himself?
He found a club that was willing to offer him a good deal and did what they wanted so they would take him as opposed to compromising that deal to pls the coach running him out of the club.
Very harsh to put all of this on Ball IMO
BUT I do recall the public utterances at that time and Luke Ball allowed those around him to absolutely 'screw' us.
His silence at the time when his management went out of their way to portray us in a bad light was deafening.
Lots of players get to where they want to go without resorting to the character assassination resorted to by those around Ball at that time.
It was well documented on here back then that the Saints fitness staff were so concerned with Ball's inability to retain fitness (due to his op issues) that they even stopped him playing games after the Geelong match to try and give him a mini pre-season to get his fitness up.
No question he 'fell out' with the Coach and fitness staff and went looking for an alternate club. I don't believe Ball decided only after the GF to leave - I think his mind was well and truly made up long before that.
Ball did what he wanted to do, and good luck to him. He's a Collingwood Premiership player.
And I find it interesting that he finally told 'his story' to Mike Sheahan whose next story about St Kilda in a good light will be his first.
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
The issue I have with the Luke Ball scenario was how he got himself to his chosen destination.
It is one thing to nominate a club and then let the clubs organize a suitable deal.
Goldsack was not a suitable replacement and Wellingham was never on the table as I recall.
We requested Nathan Brown at the time but Collingwood would only offer Goldsack.
We tried to talk to other clubs about a reasonable trade.
Ball however refused to consider any other club and decided to go in the draft while telling all clubs except Collingwood that he would not play for them if they drafted him.
He and Collingwood cheated the draft and treated St Kilda and it's supporters with absolute contempt.
The AFL should have banned him from playing for manipulating the draft and Collingwood should have been banned from the draft for at least two years.
I loved Luke as a player and would have accepted him moving on and wished him all the best (accept against us of course) as he thought his position with St Kilda was untenable with RL at the helm.
However, because of how he went about it I have lost all respect for him.
He is a dog of a human and deserves no more than the full contempt of all St Kilda and their supporters.
Sorry, end of rant.
It is one thing to nominate a club and then let the clubs organize a suitable deal.
Goldsack was not a suitable replacement and Wellingham was never on the table as I recall.
We requested Nathan Brown at the time but Collingwood would only offer Goldsack.
We tried to talk to other clubs about a reasonable trade.
Ball however refused to consider any other club and decided to go in the draft while telling all clubs except Collingwood that he would not play for them if they drafted him.
He and Collingwood cheated the draft and treated St Kilda and it's supporters with absolute contempt.
The AFL should have banned him from playing for manipulating the draft and Collingwood should have been banned from the draft for at least two years.
I loved Luke as a player and would have accepted him moving on and wished him all the best (accept against us of course) as he thought his position with St Kilda was untenable with RL at the helm.
However, because of how he went about it I have lost all respect for him.
He is a dog of a human and deserves no more than the full contempt of all St Kilda and their supporters.
Sorry, end of rant.
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
Loved Lukey Ball. Was a very good player.
Want to watch the most boring and devious thing on television and probably in mankind's history, then tune into a daily live press conference at 11am.
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
I agree and do not remember Luke Ball fondly as he shafted us.SinCitySainter wrote: ↑Wed 19 Aug 2020 5:38pm The issue I have with the Luke Ball scenario was how he got himself to his chosen destination.
It is one thing to nominate a club and then let the clubs organize a suitable deal.
Goldsack was not a suitable replacement and Wellingham was never on the table as I recall.
We requested Nathan Brown at the time but Collingwood would only offer Goldsack.
We tried to talk to other clubs about a reasonable trade.
Ball however refused to consider any other club and decided to go in the draft while telling all clubs except Collingwood that he would not play for them if they drafted him.
He and Collingwood cheated the draft and treated St Kilda and it's supporters with absolute contempt.
The AFL should have banned him from playing for manipulating the draft and Collingwood should have been banned from the draft for at least two years.
I loved Luke as a player and would have accepted him moving on and wished him all the best (accept against us of course) as he thought his position with St Kilda was untenable with RL at the helm.
However, because of how he went about it I have lost all respect for him.
He is a dog of a human and deserves no more than the full contempt of all St Kilda and their supporters.
Sorry, end of rant.
I don’t have much time for Lyon and I still think it was a mistake sacking Grant Thomas.
However he was offered a new three year contract so Lyon can’t have told him that he wouldn’t play him.
The fact that we couldn’t even deal with any other club is what dissapoints most and Ball was a party to gross manipulation of the AFL rules.
One year will be our year
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
A saints player going to the filth or the drug cheats will never be acceptable to me.Ghost Like wrote: ↑Wed 19 Aug 2020 5:20pmWise words skeptic, your last sentence makes much sense but does not make it any easier to swallow. I think it hurts that he went to the club that beat us in the following year's GF. If he'd gone to Essendon like Goddard did, much more palatable.skeptic wrote: ↑Wed 19 Aug 2020 4:52pm I think what often tends to get overlooked in this discussion is that RL made it clear to Ball that he personally, didn’t really rate/want Ball there.
This is evident in Mission’s book where they make it clear that they think he wouldn’t be able to get back to what he was and that he couldn’t run out games like they wanted him to.
Subsequently from mid-09 onwards his position comes under jeopardy and then in the GF, he’s rested for a 1/2 despite playing well in conditions that suited him.
If you’re Luke Ball, offer on the table or not... I don’t reckon you’ve got any choice but to leave.
The alarm bells are deafening
Who can make an argument that he did the wrong thing for himself?
He found a club that was willing to offer him a good deal and did what they wanted so they would take him as opposed to compromising that deal to pls the coach running him out of the club.
Very harsh to put all of this on Ball IMO
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
So true about that prick Sheahan. He hounded Plugger out of town.Mr Magic wrote: ↑Wed 19 Aug 2020 5:28pmI've got no issue with a player wanting to leave a Club to go to another, for whatever reason.skeptic wrote: ↑Wed 19 Aug 2020 4:52pm I think what often tends to get overlooked in this discussion is that RL made it clear to Ball that he personally, didn’t really rate/want Ball there.
This is evident in Mission’s book where they make it clear that they think he wouldn’t be able to get back to what he was and that he couldn’t run out games like they wanted him to.
Subsequently from mid-09 onwards his position comes under jeopardy and then in the GF, he’s rested for a 1/2 despite playing well in conditions that suited him.
If you’re Luke Ball, offer on the table or not... I don’t reckon you’ve got any choice but to leave.
The alarm bells are deafening
Who can make an argument that he did the wrong thing for himself?
He found a club that was willing to offer him a good deal and did what they wanted so they would take him as opposed to compromising that deal to pls the coach running him out of the club.
Very harsh to put all of this on Ball IMO
BUT I do recall the public utterances at that time and Luke Ball allowed those around him to absolutely 'screw' us.
His silence at the time when his management went out of their way to portray us in a bad light was deafening.
Lots of players get to where they want to go without resorting to the character assassination resorted to by those around Ball at that time.
It was well documented on here back then that the Saints fitness staff were so concerned with Ball's inability to retain fitness (due to his op issues) that they even stopped him playing games after the Geelong match to try and give him a mini pre-season to get his fitness up.
No question he 'fell out' with the Coach and fitness staff and went looking for an alternate club. I don't believe Ball decided only after the GF to leave - I think his mind was well and truly made up long before that.
Ball did what he wanted to do, and good luck to him. He's a Collingwood Premiership player.
And I find it interesting that he finally told 'his story' to Mike Sheahan whose next story about St Kilda in a good light will be his first.
![Evil or Very Mad :evil:](./images/smilies/icon_evil.gif)
- Waltzing St Kilda
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
Meh.
GT shouldn't have been sacked but he was no great match-day coach and a bit of a firebrand. Under him we scored some huge victories but there were also days when the boys just didn't show up.
RL was a great tactical coach and we suffered almost no floggings under him. Unfortunately he was also blinkered about his philosophies and besotted with role-playing mediocrities.
GT's 04/05 team was arguably better than RL's 08-09 team but crippled with injuries. RL was very unlucky not to be a dual premiership coach.
GT shouldn't have been sacked but he was no great match-day coach and a bit of a firebrand. Under him we scored some huge victories but there were also days when the boys just didn't show up.
RL was a great tactical coach and we suffered almost no floggings under him. Unfortunately he was also blinkered about his philosophies and besotted with role-playing mediocrities.
GT's 04/05 team was arguably better than RL's 08-09 team but crippled with injuries. RL was very unlucky not to be a dual premiership coach.
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
Ross, the flosser tosser lost the only two games that really mattered. He left a shithouse legacy.
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
The AFL is a very tight knit close family. One can't afford to bag anyone and continue working in the organisation.
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
We can all agree on one point that ......
St Kilda is cursed![Evil or Very Mad :evil:](./images/smilies/icon_evil.gif)
St Kilda is cursed
![Evil or Very Mad :evil:](./images/smilies/icon_evil.gif)
The Devil makes work for idle hands!!!
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
Brilliant summary of history & people as far as I'm concerned. Very kind to GT but his koolaid was delicious. apparently. If you could change "he shouldn't have been sacked" to "he shouldn't have been appointed", I'm 100% on board. Rendell was the brains, except he was limited to copying the successful Lions game plan. Burke inspired the players to commit to the jumper.Waltzing St Kilda wrote: ↑Wed 19 Aug 2020 7:26pm Meh.
GT shouldn't have been sacked but he was no great match-day coach and a bit of a firebrand. Under him we scored some huge victories but there were also days when the boys just didn't show up.
RL was a great tactical coach and we suffered almost no floggings under him. Unfortunately he was also blinkered about his philosophies and besotted with role-playing mediocrities.
GT's 04/05 team was arguably better than RL's 08-09 team but crippled with injuries. RL was very unlucky not to be a dual premiership coach.
I know this because I heard all three speak during their tenure at the time.
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
Who would want to work at a club where the coach doesn't want to play them? And the intel that went to Collingwood was courtesy of Max, not Ball - cut in 2009 before the bounce. And I can't blame him either. Let's face it, we all know where the blame lies.
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
I thought Max & Luke began at Collingwood in the same year. Whichever way it goes, I can guarantee Malthouse will not give either credit. Not wanting to explain why Collingwood's biggest weakness in 2009 became their strength in 2010. The same strength St Kilda had enjoyed for both years.
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
Being BJs step ladder in the drawn GF.saint64 wrote: ↑Wed 19 Aug 2020 3:35pm Ball giving Collingwood intel on our game plan from 2009 helped cost us, and give Collingwood, the 2010 premiership. He will be remembered mainly for three things - being a Collingwood premiership player, passing the ball to Gardiner for "that" mark in 2009, and being the player drafted between Hodge and Judd.
Proudly assuming the title of forum Oracle and serving as the inaugural Saintsational ‘weak as piss brigade’ President.
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Re: Open Mike Luke Ball
If I recall correctly, Ball missed his first year due to studies
My thoughts thru his early career were that he played some very good football (one match at Geelong which an injury decimated side lost narrowly, hauled into the contest by Ball (Fisher and Ferguson were our key defenders on speculation with Fisher never looking back having come from West Adelaide as a forward)
But Ball could not sustain week in and week out so we got the very good games 1 week in 4 (and perhaps OP even then?)
Then OP and a good ordinary player
I specifically recall fumbling (and frustrated?) in the centre square
Plus there was no capacity to spread and hurt the opposition which Lyon demanded
So he was not a first pick - hence the game time afforded to him by Lyon
The lack of compensation from Collingwood was what it was
My observations anyway
And I view we lost those GF’s because whilst we had undoubted class out bottom 4 to 6 were not up to it. We lost them courtesy of our bottom not our top (hopefully we learn with the top end talent we have assembled now)
Lovett, with pace and skill was an asset we lacked - the icing on the cake
Unfortunately it did not work out but the deficiency we had which led to Lovett was correctly identified
And again unfortunately, we did not seek that required resource from elsewhere instead going with “role players” as small forwards - and it cost us
Plus Lyon, to me, appeared adverse to giving youth opportunity to develop with class players around them - hence Peake, Birss and others whose names I forget
So chew on that!
My thoughts thru his early career were that he played some very good football (one match at Geelong which an injury decimated side lost narrowly, hauled into the contest by Ball (Fisher and Ferguson were our key defenders on speculation with Fisher never looking back having come from West Adelaide as a forward)
But Ball could not sustain week in and week out so we got the very good games 1 week in 4 (and perhaps OP even then?)
Then OP and a good ordinary player
I specifically recall fumbling (and frustrated?) in the centre square
Plus there was no capacity to spread and hurt the opposition which Lyon demanded
So he was not a first pick - hence the game time afforded to him by Lyon
The lack of compensation from Collingwood was what it was
My observations anyway
And I view we lost those GF’s because whilst we had undoubted class out bottom 4 to 6 were not up to it. We lost them courtesy of our bottom not our top (hopefully we learn with the top end talent we have assembled now)
Lovett, with pace and skill was an asset we lacked - the icing on the cake
Unfortunately it did not work out but the deficiency we had which led to Lovett was correctly identified
And again unfortunately, we did not seek that required resource from elsewhere instead going with “role players” as small forwards - and it cost us
Plus Lyon, to me, appeared adverse to giving youth opportunity to develop with class players around them - hence Peake, Birss and others whose names I forget
So chew on that!