2004 Goodness

[shanegrambeau]

vs WCoast `04 Round 9




I am sure its been posted here many times.

Brent Guerra gets 7.

Xavier Clark! oh..how classy!

[skeptic]

Brent Guerra!!! What happened to him late that season.

[Joffa Burns]

vs WCoast `04 Round 9




I am sure its been posted here many times.

Brent Guerra gets 7.

Xavier Clark! oh..how classy!

Forwardline:
Best ever seen at the Saints IMO.
Talls: Reiwoldt, Kossie, Gehrig
Medium: Hamill, Voss
Smalls: Milne, Guerra, X Clarke, Montagna (before he went into mid role)

Even better than the Lockett, Loewe, Winmar, Owen era as they were so beautifully balanced.

Midfield:
Harvey, Hayes, Powell, Dal Santo, Ball, Thompson, Black

Backs:
Talls: Maguire, Penny
Mediums: Goddard, Hudgton (tall or small)
Smalls: Peckett, Jones, Baker

Beautifully balanced list between veterans, mid age champions, young 20's superstars and elite youth.

Biggest lost opportunity in St kilda history.

Had we appointed a competent, experienced, AFL ready assistant coach or a proven AFL senior coach in 2001 we could have had a dynasty. What a shame the druggo and his cohorts were in charge at that time and chose nepotism over appointing a worthy, competent coach.

[shanegrambeau]

Forwardline:
Best ever seen at the Saints IMO.
Talls: Reiwoldt, Kossie, Gehrig
Medium: Hamill, Voss
Smalls: Milne, Guerra, X Clarke, Montagna (before he went into mid role)

Even better than the Lockett, Loewe, Winmar, Owen era as they were so beautifully balanced.

Midfield:
Harvey, Hayes, Powell, Dal Santo, Ball, Thompson, Black

Backs:
Talls: Maguire, Penny
Mediums: Goddard, Hudgton (tall or small)
Smalls: Peckett, Jones, Baker

Beautifully balanced list between veterans, mid age champions, young 20's superstars and elite youth.

Biggest lost opportunity in St kilda history.

Had we appointed a competent, experienced, AFL ready assistant coach or a proven AFL senior coach in 2001 we could have had a dynasty. What a shame the druggo and his cohorts were in charge at that time and chose nepotism over appointing a worthy, competent coach.

Too easy for me to ponder, had it not been for Butters and his dreamy visions, there would be no GT, and GT, despite his ways, got the boys revved up. The older heads among them, could have easily thought, ‘this is ridiculous having rotating captains, visiting orphanages etc’ but they did fly for a while.

Maybe, in hindsight, by 2006 he was spent, but this 2004 side...wow...as you say. What a wonderful brew! And what happened..? Watching the qualification loss to Brisbane at the end of that season, the way we got absolutely smashed, not dissimilar to the way WCoast copped it from us here, makes you wonder. What the hell happened?

Interestingly, in that QF loss, we were winning the hit outs 39 to 15 late in the second half. Knobel was rucking? (sp?) Maybe that influenced GT two years later, to leave out Brooks that faithful night (arvo?) against Melbourne and hope Kosi would do the job? Well, we know what happened then. And perhaps why Gardiner, McEvoy and King and co..would become bigger.

[remboy]

Xavier Clark! oh..how classy!

Ive been watching some 2004 replays lately and can’t help but think how we could have done with his pace and skills in 09 and 10. Would have been the icing on the cake. Too bad his body couldn’t hold up.

[saynta]

Brent Guerra!!! What happened to him late that season.

Threw in the towel, for some reason. Didn't give a s***. Was absolutely disgraceful in the prelim that we lost to the Swine.

Hence he got the flick. Very ordinary bloke.

[Trev from the Bush]

Forwardline:
Best ever seen at the Saints IMO.
Talls: Reiwoldt, Kossie, Gehrig
Medium: Hamill, Voss
Smalls: Milne, Guerra, X Clarke, Montagna (before he went into mid role)

Even better than the Lockett, Loewe, Winmar, Owen era as they were so beautifully balanced.

Midfield:
Harvey, Hayes, Powell, Dal Santo, Ball, Thompson, Black

Backs:
Talls: Maguire, Penny
Mediums: Goddard, Hudgton (tall or small)
Smalls: Peckett, Jones, Baker

Beautifully balanced list between veterans, mid age champions, young 20's superstars and elite youth.

Biggest lost opportunity in St kilda history.

Had we appointed a competent, experienced, AFL ready assistant coach or a proven AFL senior coach in 2001 we could have had a dynasty. What a shame the druggo and his cohorts were in charge at that time and chose nepotism over appointing a worthy, competent coach.

Too easy for me to ponder, had it not been for Butters and his dreamy visions, there would be no GT, and GT, despite his ways, got the boys revved up. The older heads among them, could have easily thought, ‘this is ridiculous having rotating captains, visiting orphanages etc’ but they did fly for a while.

Maybe, in hindsight, by 2006 he was spent, but this 2004 side...wow...as you say. What a wonderful brew! And what happened..? Watching the qualification loss to Brisbane at the end of that season, the way we got absolutely smashed, not dissimilar to the way WCoast copped it from us here, makes you wonder. What the hell happened?

Interestingly, in that QF loss, we were winning the hit outs 39 to 15 late in the second half. Knobel was rucking? (sp?) Maybe that influenced GT two years later, to leave out Brooks that faithful night (arvo?) against Melbourne and hope Kosi would do the job? Well, we know what happened then. And perhaps why Gardiner, McEvoy and King and co..would become bigger.

Agree with everything Joffa states - except the last paragraph. The two gentlemen he refers to made this team possible. One of the great mysteries how this group didn't win a flag. A superior list to what we had in 2009-10 in my opinion.

And how good was Aussie Jones?

[desertsaint]

Ah those where the days. A team that simply flowed. Played exciting footy and loved doing it. Beautiful field kicking all over, great leads honoured, ferocious tackling. Signs of a great coach.
Then we swapped all that for a coach that taught them to forgot how to kick or to be exciting, and to just go out and do a dour job.
Luckily they had a great mentor in their early years, unlike the newer recruits, for they did their job well. Soon drained the life out of them though, and that was that.

[ausfatcat]

Better side than 2009 and 2010 imo

[Joffa Burns]

Better side than 2009 and 2010 imo

Agree sort of afc, far better list but not better team.

Made 2 x prelims in 04, 05 but clearly on the decline in 06 getting eliminated R1 of finals.

The results of 09, 10 clearly superior.

04 best Saints team to watch, like Geelong of the 90’s freewheeling, talented, exciting and could dominate when they got on top but lacked the game plan and structure to make a GF let alone win one due to an inexperienced, incompetent coach.

Terribly disappointing that we missed an opportunity to build a dynasty.

[saynta]

Better side than 2009 and 2010 imo

Agree sort of afc, far better list but not better team.

Made 2 x prelims in 04, 05 but clearly on the decline in 06 getting eliminated R1 of finals.

The results of 09, 10 clearly superior.

04 best Saints team to watch, like Geelong of the 90’s freewheeling, talented, exciting and could dominate when they got on top but lacked the game plan and structure to make a GF let alone win one due to an inexperienced, incompetent coach.

Terribly disappointing that we missed an opportunity to build a dynasty.

" due to an inexperienced, incompetent coach. "..Who we replaced with a negative, self absorbed lying tossbag.

[shanegrambeau]

.....04 best Saints team to watch, .....but lacked the game plan and structure.... due to an inexperienced, incompetent coach.....

Can you give examples,(one off mistakes aside, b/c let’s assume the best can make mistakes) of a systemic and persistent deficit in terms of game plan and structure in the ‘03-‘06 era? I’m not talking list management or rotating captains.

I don’t see it. Of course I also don’t have a clue why Brisbane could knock us senseless the same year and what I could have done as a coach that day.

[Joffa Burns]

Better side than 2009 and 2010 imo

Agree sort of afc, far better list but not better team.

Made 2 x prelims in 04, 05 but clearly on the decline in 06 getting eliminated R1 of finals.

The results of 09, 10 clearly superior.

04 best Saints team to watch, like Geelong of the 90’s freewheeling, talented, exciting and could dominate when they got on top but lacked the game plan and structure to make a GF let alone win one due to an inexperienced, incompetent coach.

Terribly disappointing that we missed an opportunity to build a dynasty.

" due to an inexperienced, incompetent coach. "..Who we replaced with a negative, self absorbed lying tossbag.

Not sure why you are bringing Ross Lyon into this thread Saynta, the thread is about 2004 & he was probably an assistant at Sydney at that point in time.

The 2004 team in my humble opinion is the best most balanced and talented list I have ever seen in my years of watching our club.

My opinion (correct or not is up for interpretation) is that we f***ed up our greatest opportunity of building a dynasty team by gifting the coaching role through nepotism to an unqualified, inexperienced incompetent coach.

I believe many could argue the competency of Grant Thomas but I believe it it is impossible to argue he was gifted the role through nepotism as he was not an experienced assistant or senior coach and IMO blew the best opportunity I have ever seen.

We gave a guy who didn't even have his L-Plates the keys to a Ferrari and he f***ed it up.

[Joffa Burns]

.....04 best Saints team to watch, .....but lacked the game plan and structure.... due to an inexperienced, incompetent coach.....

Can you give examples,(one off mistakes aside, b/c let’s assume the best can make mistakes) of a systemic and persistent deficit in terms of game plan and structure in the ‘03-‘06 era? I’m not talking list management or rotating captains.

I don’t see it. Of course I also don’t have a clue why Brisbane could knock us senseless the same year and what I could have done as a coach that day.

IMO:

Example 1: How was our soft tissue injury management under Grant Thomas. Was it improving in 2006 or had it deteriorated? Clearly an issue but what was the fix?

Example 2: Why couldn't we make a GF under Grant Thomas/ Leigh Matthew said at a lunch in 2009 the Saints had the most talented team by a clear margin through 2004 - 2006 under Thomas but couldn't make a Grand Final as their game plan was all out attack and if they didn't dominate you had no come back. He also said we'd win 2009 I'd personally rate Matthews opinion as he coached in opposition.

Example 3: Thomas was IMO a good motivator and mentor to young players but was a one trick management pony, we were in seriously decline by 2006 and he had no other method once we'd been worked out. Where was the way forward?

Example 4: List management became a big issue after 2002. We started swapping for hacks from other clubs instead of drafting. Desperate for a ruck we took the biggest hacks of all time. That is coach driven as Beveridge always wanted to use the picks, I don't include Brooks as he was worth the punt IMO.
Crapuano, Fiora, Watts, McGough, Ackland, Stone, Murray, Knobel instead of drafting.

[shanegrambeau]

.....04 best Saints team to watch, .....but lacked the game plan and structure.... due to an inexperienced, incompetent coach.....

Can you give examples,(one off mistakes aside, b/c let’s assume the best can make mistakes) of a systemic and persistent deficit in terms of game plan and structure in the ‘03-‘06 era? I’m not talking list management or rotating captains.

I don’t see it. Of course I also don’t have a clue why Brisbane could knock us senseless the same year and what I could have done as a coach that day.

IMO:

Example 1: How was our soft tissue injury management under Grant Thomas. Was it improving in 2006 or had it deteriorated? Clearly an issue but what was the fix?

Example 2: Why couldn't we make a GF under Grant Thomas/ Leigh Matthew said at a lunch in 2009 the Saints had the most talented team by a clear margin through 2004 - 2006 under Thomas but couldn't make a Grand Final as their game plan was all out attack and if they didn't dominate you had no come back. He also said we'd win 2009 I'd personally rate Matthews opinion as he coached in opposition.

Example 3: Thomas was IMO a good motivator and mentor to young players but was a one trick management pony, we were in seriously decline by 2006 and he had no other method once we'd been worked out. Where was the way forward?

Example 4: List management became a big issue after 2002. We started swapping for hacks from other clubs instead of drafting. Desperate for a ruck we took the biggest hacks of all time. That is coach driven as Beveridge always wanted to use the picks, I don't include Brooks as he was worth the punt IMO.
Crapuano, Fiora, Watts, McGough, Ackland, Stone, Murray, Knobel instead of drafting.

Yes, as I said, I don't wanna discuss list management here and soft tissue management might be something a coach doesn't have full control of, but it seems that during the era you mention, some revolutions were taking place using platelet transfusions. The Age had this to say about GTs treatment in 2009,

..........
Former St Kilda coach Grant Thomas is famous for backing tried and true measures, such as goal-kicking practice as a cure for inaccuracy. And he still swears by the old-style hard deep tissue probing of masseur Scott Babington, better known as "the panel beater". A one-time fighter and kickboxer, he worked on Aaron Hamill, Fraser Gehrig and Raphael Clarke, and has recently returned to massaging a current St Kilda player.

"I use my elbows and the boys all scream," says Babington. "The young ones now don't like the pain. Fraser was used to it from the old West Coast Eagles days. He didn't scream, but he bit his lip pretty hard."

Thomas, now a media commentator, retains a lingering fondness for a bizarre health measure he imposed on St Kilda players — an icky, sticky brown pine needle-based serum, claimed to have cleansing and cell regenerative properties. And he still backs his famous "welfare index", on which players gave daily reports on seven aspects of their physical and mental states.

One day in June 2004, the team, then sitting on 10 straight wins, produced such bad numbers that Thomas sent them to the movies instead of the gym, a move ridiculed at the time. They lost the next three games — proof, he now insists, that his controversial system had diagnosed a problem.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/the ... e7vxa.html
.........

But for structure, you are saying he was too attacking and that Leigh Mathews didn't rate him for structure? Well, fair enough. Funny, we went from too attacking, to too defensive but the Swans were killing it around that time and they were tight flooders.

[saynta]

Better side than 2009 and 2010 imo

Agree sort of afc, far better list but not better team.

Made 2 x prelims in 04, 05 but clearly on the decline in 06 getting eliminated R1 of finals.

The results of 09, 10 clearly superior.

04 best Saints team to watch, like Geelong of the 90’s freewheeling, talented, exciting and could dominate when they got on top but lacked the game plan and structure to make a GF let alone win one due to an inexperienced, incompetent coach.

Terribly disappointing that we missed an opportunity to build a dynasty.

" due to an inexperienced, incompetent coach. "..Who we replaced with a negative, self absorbed lying tossbag.

Not sure why you are bringing Ross Lyon into this thread Saynta, the thread is about 2004 & he was probably an assistant at Sydney at that point in time.

The 2004 team in my humble opinion is the best most balanced and talented list I have ever seen in my years of watching our club.

My opinion (correct or not is up for interpretation) is that we f***ed up our greatest opportunity of building a dynasty team by gifting the coaching role through nepotism to an unqualified, inexperienced incompetent coach.

I believe many could argue the competency of Grant Thomas but I believe it it is impossible to argue he was gifted the role through nepotism as he was not an experienced assistant or senior coach and IMO blew the best opportunity I have ever seen.

We gave a guy who didn't even have his L-Plates the keys to a Ferrari and he f***ed it up.

And f****** Lyin cost us two premierships, IMHO.f***ed up big time when it really counted. Hate the prick.

[Shaggy]

vs WCoast `04 Round 9




I am sure its been posted here many times.

Brent Guerra gets 7.

Xavier Clark! oh..how classy!

Forwardline:
Best ever seen at the Saints IMO.
Talls: Reiwoldt, Kossie, Gehrig
Medium: Hamill, Voss
Smalls: Milne, Guerra, X Clarke, Montagna (before he went into mid role)

Even better than the Lockett, Loewe, Winmar, Owen era as they were so beautifully balanced.

Midfield:
Harvey, Hayes, Powell, Dal Santo, Ball, Thompson, Black

Backs:
Talls: Maguire, Penny
Mediums: Goddard, Hudgton (tall or small)
Smalls: Peckett, Jones, Baker

Beautifully balanced list between veterans, mid age champions, young 20's superstars and elite youth.

Biggest lost opportunity in St kilda history.

Had we appointed a competent, experienced, AFL ready assistant coach or a proven AFL senior coach in 2001 we could have had a dynasty. What a shame the druggo and his cohorts were in charge at that time and chose nepotism over appointing a worthy, competent coach.

2004 did not have a beautiful balance of mid age champions. That was our problem. Our key players were mostly young or guns past their prime. We were out-muscled by Port and Brisbane. They were mature teams which had dominated for 3 years and are considered by their supporters the best teams they have had in the AFL.

Our players in 2004 in the sweet spot range of 23 to 27 years old were:
Hayes, Milne, Hamill, Baker, Voss, Blake & Penny (2 AA's)

Our players in 2009 in the sweet spot range of 23 to 27 years old were:
Roo, Dal, Ball, Goddard, Fisher, Montagna, Gram, Kozi, Gwilt, Raph, Gilbert, Dempster, Shneider, Jones, Ray, McQualter & Dawson (7 AA's)

IMHO 2009 was the wasted opportunity. We were mature and the best team for the year and we did not win the flag.

[Joffa Burns]

2004 did not have a beautiful balance of mid age champions. That was our problem. Our key players were mostly young or guns past their prime. We were out-muscled by Port and Brisbane. They were mature teams which had dominated for 3 years and are considered by their supporters the best teams they have had in the AFL.

Our players in 2004 in the sweet spot range of 23 to 27 years old were:
Hayes, Milne, Hamill, Baker, Voss, Blake & Penny (2 AA's)

Our players in 2009 in the sweet spot range of 23 to 27 years old were:
Roo, Dal, Ball, Goddard, Fisher, Montagna, Gram, Kozi, Gwilt, Raph, Gilbert, Dempster, Shneider, Jones, Ray, McQualter & Dawson (7 AA's)

IMHO 2009 was the wasted opportunity. We were mature and the best team for the year and we did not win the flag.

Sorry Shaggy but that is blatantly incorrect as you have excluded players in the range whether by accidental omission or deliberate and your range is very narrow eliminating AA selections in 2004 as they are a few months shy of the 23/27 age bracket.

Your information does not provide an accurate picture at all, in fact if you wish to write opinion as "fact" you would be better served doing a modicum of research. Perhaps you subscribe to the laughable theory that master coach GT scrapped us into two prelims with a team full of 19/20 year olds as has been written here previously.

It is just a fabrication, much like your information provided above.

Lets clarify....

2004
- 27 YO Austin Jones was All Australian in 04 but doesn't make your list?
- 28 YO Fraser Gehrig was All Australian & Coleman medalist in 04 - but missed your sweet spot by a few months so doesn't count?
- 27 YO Max Hudgton was a very fine player for the club but doesn't make your list?
- 27 YO Stephen Powell was a very hard at it mid but not on your list?
- 24 YO Heath Black was deemed good enough to trade a first round pick in the super draft of 2001 but doesn't make your list?

So you have left out of your "sweet spot range" two players who were both AA in 2004 and a backman who would be selected in our team of 2000 - 2020 should one be selected.
Powell & Black were also more than handy players.

Nick Reiwoldt was 22 so he conveniently misses your sweet spot as well despite being AA in 2004.
Dal Santo & Ball were AA in 2005 so they were hardly rookies in 2004

On top of this:
32 YO Robert Harvey was AA in 2003 so still going OK
31 YO's Andrew Thompson & Justin Peckett played all games

Saints ALL Australians between 2003 & 2005:
Harvey, Gehrig, Jones, Reiwoldt, Hayes, Dal Santo, Ball - 7 All Australians in that period.

One thing you point does raise Shaggy is how poor our performance was in 2006 when our core group were reaching your sweet spot age but our performance from 04/05 was clearly in rapid decline.

The sweet spot range is broad and inaccurate, let me give you some Saints examples:
What is accurate is how a player is playing at that point in his career.
Your method conveniently leaves out the Coleman medalist as he's a few months over 27, ridiculous!

Milne - AA at 31 YO & 32 YO
Harvey - AA 31 YO
Gehrig - AA 21, 28, 29 YO
Dal Santo AA - 22 YO
Ball - AA 21 YO
Jones - AA 20 YO
Reiwoldt - 21, 22, 31 YO

You also fall for the trap of many on here who incorrectly write our core or key players were old or young.
Because these younger players were our core in 2009/10 does not mean they were our core in 2004, can't believe how many people perpetuate this myth. Its almost as bad as the GT got us into prelims with a bunch of kids Our core in 2004 were mature and consisted of multiple AA: Gehrig, Hamill, Hayes, Harvey, Riewoldt, Hudgton, Jones, Thompson, Peckett, Black, Powell, Milne..... Our young guns were Ball, Dal, X, Maguire, Montagna etc, they were not the core in 04.

What a shame we appointed an unqualified, inexperienced, incompetent coach based on nepotism instead of employing an experienced competent coach, huge f*** up by the Druggo and Watts, but hey we drafted Watts son so nepotism has payback doesn't it.

https://www.draftguru.com.au/lists/2004/st-kilda

[Ghost Like]

Forwardline:
Best ever seen at the Saints IMO.
Talls: Reiwoldt, Kossie, Gehrig
Medium: Hamill, Voss
Smalls: Milne, Guerra, X Clarke, Montagna (before he went into mid role)

Even better than the Lockett, Loewe, Winmar, Owen era as they were so beautifully balanced.

Midfield:
Harvey, Hayes, Powell, Dal Santo, Ball, Thompson, Black

Backs:
Talls: Maguire, Penny
Mediums: Goddard, Hudgton (tall or small)
Smalls: Peckett, Jones, Baker

Beautifully balanced list between veterans, mid age champions, young 20's superstars and elite youth.

Biggest lost opportunity in St kilda history.

Had we appointed a competent, experienced, AFL ready assistant coach or a proven AFL senior coach in 2001 we could have had a dynasty. What a shame the druggo and his cohorts were in charge at that time and chose nepotism over appointing a worthy, competent coach.

Too easy for me to ponder, had it not been for Butters and his dreamy visions, there would be no GT, and GT, despite his ways, got the boys revved up. The older heads among them, could have easily thought, ‘this is ridiculous having rotating captains, visiting orphanages etc’ but they did fly for a while.

Maybe, in hindsight, by 2006 he was spent, but this 2004 side...wow...as you say. What a wonderful brew! And what happened..? Watching the qualification loss to Brisbane at the end of that season, the way we got absolutely smashed, not dissimilar to the way WCoast copped it from us here, makes you wonder. What the hell happened?

Interestingly, in that QF loss, we were winning the hit outs 39 to 15 late in the second half. Knobel was rucking? (sp?) Maybe that influenced GT two years later, to leave out Brooks that faithful night (arvo?) against Melbourne and hope Kosi would do the job? Well, we know what happened then. And perhaps why Gardiner, McEvoy and King and co..would become bigger.

Agree with everything Joffa states - except the last paragraph. The two gentlemen he refers to made this team possible. One of the great mysteries how this group didn't win a flag. A superior list to what we had in 2009-10 in my opinion.

And how good was Aussie Jones?

I believe the point of JB's post goes someway to solving that mystery Trev.

[Trev from the Bush]

Forwardline:
Best ever seen at the Saints IMO.
Talls: Reiwoldt, Kossie, Gehrig
Medium: Hamill, Voss
Smalls: Milne, Guerra, X Clarke, Montagna (before he went into mid role)

Even better than the Lockett, Loewe, Winmar, Owen era as they were so beautifully balanced.

Midfield:
Harvey, Hayes, Powell, Dal Santo, Ball, Thompson, Black

Backs:
Talls: Maguire, Penny
Mediums: Goddard, Hudgton (tall or small)
Smalls: Peckett, Jones, Baker

Beautifully balanced list between veterans, mid age champions, young 20's superstars and elite youth.

Biggest lost opportunity in St kilda history.

Had we appointed a competent, experienced, AFL ready assistant coach or a proven AFL senior coach in 2001 we could have had a dynasty. What a shame the druggo and his cohorts were in charge at that time and chose nepotism over appointing a worthy, competent coach.

Too easy for me to ponder, had it not been for Butters and his dreamy visions, there would be no GT, and GT, despite his ways, got the boys revved up. The older heads among them, could have easily thought, ‘this is ridiculous having rotating captains, visiting orphanages etc’ but they did fly for a while.

Maybe, in hindsight, by 2006 he was spent, but this 2004 side...wow...as you say. What a wonderful brew! And what happened..? Watching the qualification loss to Brisbane at the end of that season, the way we got absolutely smashed, not dissimilar to the way WCoast copped it from us here, makes you wonder. What the hell happened?

Interestingly, in that QF loss, we were winning the hit outs 39 to 15 late in the second half. Knobel was rucking? (sp?) Maybe that influenced GT two years later, to leave out Brooks that faithful night (arvo?) against Melbourne and hope Kosi would do the job? Well, we know what happened then. And perhaps why Gardiner, McEvoy and King and co..would become bigger.

Agree with everything Joffa states - except the last paragraph. The two gentlemen he refers to made this team possible. One of the great mysteries how this group didn't win a flag. A superior list to what we had in 2009-10 in my opinion.

And how good was Aussie Jones?

I believe the point of JB's post goes someway to solving that mystery Trev.

Joffa makes many, many valid points only to let his unbridled dislike of GT bring his arguments undone. GT last coached 14 years ago, most of us have moved on.

[Joffa Burns]

Forwardline:
Best ever seen at the Saints IMO.
Talls: Reiwoldt, Kossie, Gehrig
Medium: Hamill, Voss
Smalls: Milne, Guerra, X Clarke, Montagna (before he went into mid role)

Even better than the Lockett, Loewe, Winmar, Owen era as they were so beautifully balanced.

Midfield:
Harvey, Hayes, Powell, Dal Santo, Ball, Thompson, Black

Backs:
Talls: Maguire, Penny
Mediums: Goddard, Hudgton (tall or small)
Smalls: Peckett, Jones, Baker

Beautifully balanced list between veterans, mid age champions, young 20's superstars and elite youth.

Biggest lost opportunity in St kilda history.

Had we appointed a competent, experienced, AFL ready assistant coach or a proven AFL senior coach in 2001 we could have had a dynasty. What a shame the druggo and his cohorts were in charge at that time and chose nepotism over appointing a worthy, competent coach.

Too easy for me to ponder, had it not been for Butters and his dreamy visions, there would be no GT, and GT, despite his ways, got the boys revved up. The older heads among them, could have easily thought, ‘this is ridiculous having rotating captains, visiting orphanages etc’ but they did fly for a while.

Maybe, in hindsight, by 2006 he was spent, but this 2004 side...wow...as you say. What a wonderful brew! And what happened..? Watching the qualification loss to Brisbane at the end of that season, the way we got absolutely smashed, not dissimilar to the way WCoast copped it from us here, makes you wonder. What the hell happened?

Interestingly, in that QF loss, we were winning the hit outs 39 to 15 late in the second half. Knobel was rucking? (sp?) Maybe that influenced GT two years later, to leave out Brooks that faithful night (arvo?) against Melbourne and hope Kosi would do the job? Well, we know what happened then. And perhaps why Gardiner, McEvoy and King and co..would become bigger.

Agree with everything Joffa states - except the last paragraph. The two gentlemen he refers to made this team possible. One of the great mysteries how this group didn't win a flag. A superior list to what we had in 2009-10 in my opinion.

And how good was Aussie Jones?

I believe the point of JB's post goes someway to solving that mystery Trev.

Joffa makes many, many valid points only to let his unbridled dislike of GT bring his arguments undone. GT last coached 14 years ago, most of us have moved on.

Not sure how you came to that conclusion Tev

[Shaggy]

2004 did not have a beautiful balance of mid age champions. That was our problem. Our key players were mostly young or guns past their prime. We were out-muscled by Port and Brisbane. They were mature teams which had dominated for 3 years and are considered by their supporters the best teams they have had in the AFL.

Our players in 2004 in the sweet spot range of 23 to 27 years old were:
Hayes, Milne, Hamill, Baker, Voss, Blake & Penny (2 AA's)

Our players in 2009 in the sweet spot range of 23 to 27 years old were:
Roo, Dal, Ball, Goddard, Fisher, Montagna, Gram, Kozi, Gwilt, Raph, Gilbert, Dempster, Shneider, Jones, Ray, McQualter & Dawson (7 AA's)

IMHO 2009 was the wasted opportunity. We were mature and the best team for the year and we did not win the flag.

Sorry Shaggy but that is blatantly incorrect as you have excluded players in the range whether by accidental omission or deliberate and your range is very narrow eliminating AA selections in 2004 as they are a few months shy of the 23/27 age bracket.

Your information does not provide an accurate picture at all, in fact if you wish to write opinion as "fact" you would be better served doing a modicum of research. Perhaps you subscribe to the laughable theory that master coach GT scrapped us into two prelims with a team full of 19/20 year olds as has been written here previously.

It is just a fabrication, much like your information provided above.

Lets clarify....

2004
- 27 YO Austin Jones was All Australian in 04 but doesn't make your list?
- 28 YO Fraser Gehrig was All Australian & Coleman medalist in 04 - but missed your sweet spot by a few months so doesn't count?
- 27 YO Max Hudgton was a very fine player for the club but doesn't make your list?
- 27 YO Stephen Powell was a very hard at it mid but not on your list?
- 24 YO Heath Black was deemed good enough to trade a first round pick in the super draft of 2001 but doesn't make your list?

So you have left out of your "sweet spot range" two players who were both AA in 2004 and a backman who would be selected in our team of 2000 - 2020 should one be selected.
Powell & Black were also more than handy players.

Nick Reiwoldt was 22 so he conveniently misses your sweet spot as well despite being AA in 2004.
Dal Santo & Ball were AA in 2005 so they were hardly rookies in 2004

On top of this:
32 YO Robert Harvey was AA in 2003 so still going OK
31 YO's Andrew Thompson & Justin Peckett played all games

Saints ALL Australians between 2003 & 2005:
Harvey, Gehrig, Jones, Reiwoldt, Hayes, Dal Santo, Ball - 7 All Australians in that period.

One thing you point does raise Shaggy is how poor our performance was in 2006 when our core group were reaching your sweet spot age but our performance from 04/05 was clearly in rapid decline.

The sweet spot range is broad and inaccurate, let me give you some Saints examples:
What is accurate is how a player is playing at that point in his career.
Your method conveniently leaves out the Coleman medalist as he's a few months over 27, ridiculous!

Milne - AA at 31 YO & 32 YO
Harvey - AA 31 YO
Gehrig - AA 21, 28, 29 YO
Dal Santo AA - 22 YO
Ball - AA 21 YO
Jones - AA 20 YO
Reiwoldt - 21, 22, 31 YO

You also fall for the trap of many on here who incorrectly write our core or key players were old or young.
Because these younger players were our core in 2009/10 does not mean they were our core in 2004, can't believe how many people perpetuate this myth. Its almost as bad as the GT got us into prelims with a bunch of kids Our core in 2004 were mature and consisted of multiple AA: Gehrig, Hamill, Hayes, Harvey, Riewoldt, Hudgton, Jones, Thompson, Peckett, Black, Powell, Milne..... Our young guns were Ball, Dal, X, Maguire, Montagna etc, they were not the core in 04.

What a shame we appointed an unqualified, inexperienced, incompetent coach based on nepotism instead of employing an experienced competent coach, huge f*** up by the Druggo and Watts, but hey we drafted Watts son so nepotism has payback doesn't it.

https://www.draftguru.com.au/lists/2004/st-kilda

Thanks for the heads up on draftguru. Much easier to use then footywire.

I missed Black because I thought I duplicated Blake but I have adjusted below. Aussie, Max, G-Train, & Powell were all 28 when we played Port. Still very good footballers.

You do not appear to believe in the sweet spot. I do. Obviously 23 to 27 years old is not an exact range but I think it is a fair guess as to when players are at the peak of their AFL career.

In 2009 we nearly had the whole list roughly in the sweet spot. More importantly our guns including 7 AA’s. It was like a perfect storm. IMO easily the best Saints side in my lifetime.

2 years later and Roo, Dal, Kosi, Montagna and Fisher are 27 and 28. Still great players but not quite as good and Saints slid accordingly.

So players in a sweet spot of say 23 – 27 years old:

2004 – Port PF:
Hayes, Milne, Hamill, Baker, Voss, Black, Blake & Penny

2009 – Geelong GF:
Roo, Dal, Ball, Goddard, Fisher, Montagna, Gram, Kozi, Gwilt, Raph, Gilbert, Dempster, Shneider, Jones, Ray, McQualter & Dawson

In 2009 we were mature, injury free, finals experienced and key players in the sweet spot. We were the best team and we did not win the flag.

BJ who played 2004 and 2009 says about GT and 2009:

GT: “he had a huge impact not only on my footy, but my life.”
2009: "We were the best team (of 2009)," "I think a lot of the Geelong people have said that. But it doesn't mean much (if you don't win) on Grand Final day, does it?”

[Joffa Burns]

2004 did not have a beautiful balance of mid age champions. That was our problem. Our key players were mostly young or guns past their prime. We were out-muscled by Port and Brisbane. They were mature teams which had dominated for 3 years and are considered by their supporters the best teams they have had in the AFL.

Our players in 2004 in the sweet spot range of 23 to 27 years old were:
Hayes, Milne, Hamill, Baker, Voss, Blake & Penny (2 AA's)

Our players in 2009 in the sweet spot range of 23 to 27 years old were:
Roo, Dal, Ball, Goddard, Fisher, Montagna, Gram, Kozi, Gwilt, Raph, Gilbert, Dempster, Shneider, Jones, Ray, McQualter & Dawson (7 AA's)

IMHO 2009 was the wasted opportunity. We were mature and the best team for the year and we did not win the flag.

Sorry Shaggy but that is blatantly incorrect as you have excluded players in the range whether by accidental omission or deliberate and your range is very narrow eliminating AA selections in 2004 as they are a few months shy of the 23/27 age bracket.

Your information does not provide an accurate picture at all, in fact if you wish to write opinion as "fact" you would be better served doing a modicum of research. Perhaps you subscribe to the laughable theory that master coach GT scrapped us into two prelims with a team full of 19/20 year olds as has been written here previously.

It is just a fabrication, much like your information provided above.

Lets clarify....

2004
- 27 YO Austin Jones was All Australian in 04 but doesn't make your list?
- 28 YO Fraser Gehrig was All Australian & Coleman medalist in 04 - but missed your sweet spot by a few months so doesn't count?
- 27 YO Max Hudgton was a very fine player for the club but doesn't make your list?
- 27 YO Stephen Powell was a very hard at it mid but not on your list?
- 24 YO Heath Black was deemed good enough to trade a first round pick in the super draft of 2001 but doesn't make your list?

So you have left out of your "sweet spot range" two players who were both AA in 2004 and a backman who would be selected in our team of 2000 - 2020 should one be selected.
Powell & Black were also more than handy players.

Nick Reiwoldt was 22 so he conveniently misses your sweet spot as well despite being AA in 2004.
Dal Santo & Ball were AA in 2005 so they were hardly rookies in 2004

On top of this:
32 YO Robert Harvey was AA in 2003 so still going OK
31 YO's Andrew Thompson & Justin Peckett played all games

Saints ALL Australians between 2003 & 2005:
Harvey, Gehrig, Jones, Reiwoldt, Hayes, Dal Santo, Ball - 7 All Australians in that period.

One thing you point does raise Shaggy is how poor our performance was in 2006 when our core group were reaching your sweet spot age but our performance from 04/05 was clearly in rapid decline.

The sweet spot range is broad and inaccurate, let me give you some Saints examples:
What is accurate is how a player is playing at that point in his career.
Your method conveniently leaves out the Coleman medalist as he's a few months over 27, ridiculous!

Milne - AA at 31 YO & 32 YO
Harvey - AA 31 YO
Gehrig - AA 21, 28, 29 YO
Dal Santo AA - 22 YO
Ball - AA 21 YO
Jones - AA 20 YO
Reiwoldt - 21, 22, 31 YO

You also fall for the trap of many on here who incorrectly write our core or key players were old or young.
Because these younger players were our core in 2009/10 does not mean they were our core in 2004, can't believe how many people perpetuate this myth. Its almost as bad as the GT got us into prelims with a bunch of kids Our core in 2004 were mature and consisted of multiple AA: Gehrig, Hamill, Hayes, Harvey, Riewoldt, Hudgton, Jones, Thompson, Peckett, Black, Powell, Milne..... Our young guns were Ball, Dal, X, Maguire, Montagna etc, they were not the core in 04.

What a shame we appointed an unqualified, inexperienced, incompetent coach based on nepotism instead of employing an experienced competent coach, huge f*** up by the Druggo and Watts, but hey we drafted Watts son so nepotism has payback doesn't it.

https://www.draftguru.com.au/lists/2004/st-kilda

Thanks for the heads up on draftguru. Much easier to use then footywire.

I missed Black because I thought I duplicated Blake but I have adjusted below. Aussie, Max, G-Train, & Powell were all 28 when we played Port. Still very good footballers.

You do not appear to believe in the sweet spot. I do. Obviously 23 to 27 years old is not an exact range but I think it is a fair guess as to when players are at the peak of their AFL career.

In 2009 we nearly had the whole list roughly in the sweet spot. More importantly our guns including 7 AA’s. It was like a perfect storm. IMO easily the best Saints side in my lifetime.

2 years later and Roo, Dal, Kosi, Montagna and Fisher are 27 and 28. Still great players but not quite as good and Saints slid accordingly.

So players in a sweet spot of say 23 – 27 years old:

2004 – Port PF:
Hayes, Milne, Hamill, Baker, Voss, Black, Blake & Penny

2009 – Geelong GF:
Roo, Dal, Ball, Goddard, Fisher, Montagna, Gram, Kozi, Gwilt, Raph, Gilbert, Dempster, Shneider, Jones, Ray, McQualter & Dawson

In 2009 we were mature, injury free, finals experienced and key players in the sweet spot. We were the best team and we did not win the flag.

BJ who played 2004 and 2009 says about GT and 2009:

GT: “he had a huge impact not only on my footy, but my life.”
2009: "We were the best team (of 2009)," "I think a lot of the Geelong people have said that. But it doesn't mean much (if you don't win) on Grand Final day, does it?”

OK, I not only believe the sweet spot 23-27 in your analogy is not only narrow, but has been skewed toward your assumption that GT was a supercoach who pulled off a prelim final with a list full of kids and vets passed their prime.

The reasons your 23-27 sweet spot is inaccurate and irrelevant for the 2004 season, and I note you have now updated your criteria to players who were 23-27 during the port Adelaide prelim not at season commencement or end which is extremely specific and even more narrow and excludes further players from your sweet spot.

2004 Sweet spot is bulls*** - Reason 1
Your sweet spot excludes the following All Australian players:
2004 - All Australian - Austin Jones - 27 turned 28 during the 2004 season excluded through age
2004 - All Australian - Coleman medalist - Fraser Gehrig - 28 excluded through age
2004 - All Australian - Best & Fairest - Nick Reiwoldt - 22 YO excluded through age

2004 Sweet spot is bulls*** - Reason 2
Your sweet spot excludes 7 of the top 10 players in the 2004 B&F:
1 - Reiwoldt - 22 - excluded through age
2 - Ball - 20 - excluded through age (Ball was a better player at 20 & 21 than he was 23-27)
3. Hayes - Included
4. Dal Santo - 21- excluded through age
5. Jones - 27 but turned 28 before prelim - excluded through age
6. Gehrig - 100 goals, AA, Coleman medal 28 YO - excluded through age
7. Harvey - AA in 2003, , played another 4 seasons - excluded through age
8. Baker - included
9. Voss - included
10. Hudgton - 27 but 28 by prelim so - excluded through age


Summary
Three All Australians and 70% of the top ten in the B&F were excluded from your sweet spot because they were outside your range and 3 of them had birthdays during the season so were in the sweet spot during the season but turned 28 before the prelim. Did their performance drop significantly after their 28th birthdays?

The Core myth debunked
The last myth to be exposed is the "core group in 2004 were young and had matured by 2009".
The fact is the core group in 2004 were completely different to the core group in 2009 with some players obviously filling spots in both. Because the 2009 core group were mostly playing in 2004, doesn't immediately make them core in 04.

Core 2004
Hamill, Gehrig, Harvey, Reiwoldt, Hayes, Penny, Hudgton, Voss, Baker, Jones, Dal Santo, Ball, Peckett, Thompson, Black, Powell

Core 2009
Riewoldt, Kossie, Montagna, Dal Santo, Hayes, Schneider, Goddard, Gilbert, Dawson, Gardiner, Fisher, Gram

I'd argue Ball was not core in 09 but you can have him if you chose. You write that Gwilt, McQualter, C.Jones, Ray and Raph were core in 09 which actually highlights how poor our 09 list was compared to 04 as these guys wouldn't have struggled to get a regular game in the 04 team at their peak.

I reiterate, we handed the keys to the Ferrari but the driver hadn't even got his learners yet and had no experience behind the wheel and inevitably f***ed the whole thing up through his incompetence.

Pulling the old bulls*** line about a bunch of kids and vets, sweet spot narrow age brackets, the core group were young, etc all just smokes and mirrors for the GT apologists on this site.

[Shaggy]

OK, I not only believe the sweet spot 23-27 in your analogy is not only narrow, but has been skewed toward your assumption that GT was a supercoach who pulled off a prelim final with a list full of kids and vets passed their prime.

The reasons your 23-27 sweet spot is inaccurate and irrelevant for the 2004 season, and I note you have now updated your criteria to players who were 23-27 during the port Adelaide prelim not at season commencement or end which is extremely specific and even more narrow and excludes further players from your sweet spot.

2004 Sweet spot is bulls*** - Reason 1
Your sweet spot excludes the following All Australian players:
2004 - All Australian - Austin Jones - 27 turned 28 during the 2004 season excluded through age
2004 - All Australian - Coleman medalist - Fraser Gehrig - 28 excluded through age
2004 - All Australian - Best & Fairest - Nick Reiwoldt - 22 YO excluded through age

2004 Sweet spot is bulls*** - Reason 2
Your sweet spot excludes 7 of the top 10 players in the 2004 B&F:
1 - Reiwoldt - 22 - excluded through age
2 - Ball - 20 - excluded through age (Ball was a better player at 20 & 21 than he was 23-27)
3. Hayes - Included
4. Dal Santo - 21- excluded through age
5. Jones - 27 but turned 28 before prelim - excluded through age
6. Gehrig - 100 goals, AA, Coleman medal 28 YO - excluded through age
7. Harvey - AA in 2003, , played another 4 seasons - excluded through age
8. Baker - included
9. Voss - included
10. Hudgton - 27 but 28 by prelim so - excluded through age


Summary
Three All Australians and 70% of the top ten in the B&F were excluded from your sweet spot because they were outside your range and 3 of them had birthdays during the season so were in the sweet spot during the season but turned 28 before the prelim. Did their performance drop significantly after their 28th birthdays?

The Core myth debunked
The last myth to be exposed is the "core group in 2004 were young and had matured by 2009".
The fact is the core group in 2004 were completely different to the core group in 2009 with some players obviously filling spots in both. Because the 2009 core group were mostly playing in 2004, doesn't immediately make them core in 04.

Core 2004
Hamill, Gehrig, Harvey, Reiwoldt, Hayes, Penny, Hudgton, Voss, Baker, Jones, Dal Santo, Ball, Peckett, Thompson, Black, Powell

Core 2009
Riewoldt, Kossie, Montagna, Dal Santo, Hayes, Schneider, Goddard, Gilbert, Dawson, Gardiner, Fisher, Gram

I'd argue Ball was not core in 09 but you can have him if you chose. You write that Gwilt, McQualter, C.Jones, Ray and Raph were core in 09 which actually highlights how poor our 09 list was compared to 04 as these guys wouldn't have struggled to get a regular game in the 04 team at their peak.

I reiterate, we handed the keys to the Ferrari but the driver hadn't even got his learners yet and had no experience behind the wheel and inevitably f***ed the whole thing up through his incompetence.

Pulling the old bulls*** line about a bunch of kids and vets, sweet spot narrow age brackets, the core group were young, etc all just smokes and mirrors for the GT apologists on this site.

5 years is not a narrow range for predicting one’s peak in sport.

I am not saying players cannot be AA’s outside the sweet spot.

I want a 25 years old 1997 Banger or a 25 years old 2010 BJ. They went to extra gears in the finals only those at their peak can do. Peripherals do also. RL preferred matures in their peak over Armo, Stuv and Tom Lynch for a reason.

In 2004 most of our players were not at the peak of their careers. Our older players only won 5 games in 2002 when many were at their peak.

IMO you have allowed your dislike of GT to bias your judgement and you are spamming it.

[Scollop]

Hey shaggy,

I agree with you.

If you know how to do one of those fancy avatar thingys I’d suggest you find a picture of some ‘spam’