Ross Lyon dummyspit collection wanted

[Scollop]

History has a way of sorting out legend from myth. Ross Lyon was a very good coach, but not a great one.

He had a team humming and purring and he let slip one of the best chances any team has ever had in VFL/AFL history to plan for an assault on a premiership

....I am not a "Lyon Hater" in any shape or form, I am just presenting the facts that are on the record.

It’s never been personal. It’s always been about the results and the opportunity lost as far as I was concerned

Lyon has admitted in many recent interviews that he made errors in both 2009 and 2010. At the time he wanted to pass the buck at every opportunity and shift the blame onto other people or onto his players. He had a knack during his time with St Kilda of looking for scapegoats and he didn’t accept responsibility for things that were in his control. That goes for drafting, selection, game day coaching, development of youth, game plan etc.

I think he was very fortunate to have landed the job at St Kilda and he probably owes a few favours to his mates in Robert Walls and Paul Roos. He was also very cunning in landing the plum role at Fremantle.

I reckon he has improved over the years in some areas and it would be interesting to see if another club is willing to risk employing him as head coach. Will he be able to allow his recruiting teams and footy department to set the agenda rather than the other way around?

He was passionate, dedicated and committed to all his roles as an assistant and as a head coach. He was a workaholic and he deserves to be recognised as a very good coach in his AFL career even if he doesn’t get another senior gig.

[takeaway]

Ended up a 0-10, predictable, humdrum coach, and was wisely replaced by Freo, who finally saw the light.
This is a team boasting Fyfe, Neale, Mundy, Walters, Brad Hill, etc.. and having a distinct home ground advantage.
0-10! How is it even possible that Freo went from playing in a GF one year to starting the next year 0-10?

Yep, the useless tosser lost three grannies with teams other coaches would have romped in with.

The guy's a loser. Pity is , he was our loser when we had the best teams.

For the Saints, RL has the best win loss ratio of any Saints coach in home and away 66% (by some margin). Equal best ratio in finals 50% (and better than Jeans)

Funny, a floating bomb by Breen got the point, and a flag, a right angle bounce in front of Milne didn't get the goal, an allowed non goal to Geelong made the difference.

Doesn't take much to change from a Saints hero to a useless tosser (according to some). I'll take that "useless tosser's" record any day.

I think it has more to do with Ross departing the Saints, not based on coaching performance.

Depends how you look at it.

He had great lists and great teams which he decimated in the end. Cost us two flags with his poor selections and not putting our best players on the ground, with the excuse ."oh I forgot"


He wouldn't play the kids or develop young players. Cost us three who are now getting regular games with other teams.

He played injured players in three grand finals including a player who had been in hospital overnight on a drip.

In the end he cost us a pissed off former captain and an overlooked fullback wh together took our Ip over to the filth and who played a significant role in our grannie losses in 2010.

You can stick up for him all you want and you are entitled to your opinions.

Jeans was a great coach and proved it, The tosser was an ordinary coach and proved that with 4 grand final losses.

I just don't agree with you, including my reasons for despising the creep.

Dropkick Imhfo.

"He proved he was an ordinary coach with 4 Grand final losses" ..... Really? Most coaches come and go without getting near a Grand final. Anyway, you are entitled to your view, which I would think the vast majority of players that played under him, and many of the staff involved would totally disagree with. Difficult character at times, but so were many other very very good coaches.

I also said that a good coach would have romped in those grannies with the teams the tosser had at his disposal.

OK, missed that. Romped in? Really ? Your view, and in my view, another false statement. Geelong and Collingwood in those grannies had pretty decent sides, with the Pies being generally acknowledged as the best side in 2010 - we did very well to almost pip them.

[Scollop]

The really weak argument from those who have lauded his coaching and repeatedly claimed he was a great coach, was that some of us were dirty on Ross for the way that he left St Kilda and we changed our mind about him ‘only’ after he departed. There were quite a few voices criticising his methods and game plan and team selection in 2009/2010 ( both of which ultimately cost us) and especially his influence on drafting in those years which went on to cost the team for many years after he departed.

Not sure if this has ever been discussed, but perhaps some of the salary cap issues that St Kilda faced in 2012 and 2013 were partly the fault of one Ross Lyon. There is no way on earth that he would have had zero input during 2009/2010 when negotiations for future contracts were taking place for Roo/Dal/Kosi/Goddard etc...

[Secret Kiel]

The really weak argument from those who have lauded his coaching and repeatedly claimed he was a great coach, was that some of us were dirty on Ross for the way that he left St Kilda and we changed our mind about him ‘only’ after he departed. There were quite a few voices criticising his methods and game plan and team selection in 2009/2010 ( both of which ultimately cost us) and especially his influence on drafting in those years which went on to cost the team for many years after he departed.

Not sure if this has ever been discussed, but perhaps some of the salary cap issues that St Kilda faced in 2012 and 2013 were partly the fault of one Ross Lyon. There is no way on earth that he would have had zero input during 2009/2010 when negotiations for future contracts were taking place for Roo/Dal/Kosi/Goddard etc...

This from the poster who claims he knows more about the game than decorated premiership captains by watching games with the sound turned down. You have to be a raving mad Fox News, Trump loving, alternate facts lover to believe you knew before anyone in 2009 that Lyon was going to cost us a flag that season. I mean it is straight out of the Trump handbook to claim there were quite a few voices critisiing Lyon in 2009 in the hindsight visonary way you are claiming. It's just more made up stuff by you that comes across as being just plain raving batsh1t crazy talk.

Lyon had faults but in 2009 if you were hearing voices then I'd suggest they were inside your head.

[samoht]

... it is straight out of the Trump handbook to claim there were quite a few voices critisiing Lyon in 2009 in the hindsight visonary way you are claiming. It's just more made up stuff by you that comes across as being just plain raving batsh1t crazy talk.

Lyon had faults but in 2009 if you were hearing voices then I'd suggest they were inside your head.

I'm pretty sure I was criticising Lyon starting in late 2009 and definitely from 2010 onwards ... for allowing the opposition half back lines to totally dominate us during the finals - or at least, for not working out ways to restrict the opposition's rebound and run and carry.
The half back lines of the Bulldogs, Collingwood and Geelong ran and rebounded at will during the 2009 and 2010 finals - which was concerning. I could see some worrying signs.

[Secret Kiel]

... it is straight out of the Trump handbook to claim there were quite a few voices critisiing Lyon in 2009 in the hindsight visonary way you are claiming. It's just more made up stuff by you that comes across as being just plain raving batsh1t crazy talk.

Lyon had faults but in 2009 if you were hearing voices then I'd suggest they were inside your head.

I'm pretty sure I was criticising Lyon starting in late 2009 and definitely from 2010 onwards ... for allowing the opposition half back lines to totally dominate us during the finals - or at least, for not working out ways to restrict the opposition's rebound and run and carry.
The half back lines of the Bulldogs, Collingwood and Geelong ran and rebounded at will during the finals - which was concerning. I could see some worrying signs.

I'm guessing your criticism in September 2009 included predictions Lyon was not capable of being a premiership coach and would ultimately never be a premiership coach. Was that how worried you were in September 2009?

[shanegrambeau]

... it is straight out of the Trump handbook to claim there were quite a few voices critisiing Lyon in 2009 in the hindsight visonary way you are claiming. It's just more made up stuff by you that comes across as being just plain raving batsh1t crazy talk.

Lyon had faults but in 2009 if you were hearing voices then I'd suggest they were inside your head.

I'm pretty sure I was criticising Lyon starting in late 2009 and definitely from 2010 onwards ... for allowing the opposition half back lines to totally dominate us during the finals - or at least, for not working out ways to restrict the opposition's rebound and run and carry.
The half back lines of the Bulldogs, Collingwood and Geelong ran and rebounded at will during the 2009 and 2010 finals - which was concerning. I could see some worrying signs.

Great stuff.
I have a proposal to illuminate the truth. And besides I wanna learn something here.

If opposition back lines were rebounding too easily, what precisely, were the structural mistakes we were allegedly making. My career on the footy field (U/15cs aside) isn’t exactly studded with awards, but I am very keen to learn what we were doing wrong.

Let me take a guess. We were well trained to fall back into a set defensive structure when possession was turned over in our forward or half forward line and fell back too quickly creating open spaces through centre and the wings, which allowed them to charge forward and set up?

[samoht]

see below ...

[Secret Kiel]

I'm guessing your criticism in September 2009 included predictions Lyon was not capable of being a premiership coach and would ultimately never be a premiership coach. Was that how worried you were in September 2009?

It's worth remembering that we just managed to beat the Bulldogs, by 7 points, in the preliminary final - and their half back line had completely dominated in that game.
I think Harbrow had an amazing 40 running/rebounding possessions.

We had 20 less inside 50's and riewoldt literally saved the days for us - at least we had a decent forward, something the Bulldogs lacked - lucky for us.

We were starting to come back to the field during the finals, and unable to hold the opposition half back lines - our defensive pressure went out the window.

Yes, there were some concerning signs, regarding our defensive pressure in important games.

I think Harbrow had run riot in a game against us just prior to that final.

You're starting to look more slippery than an eel in a bucket of snot.

You didn't answer my question.

[bigcarl]

Inherited a list on the cusp of great things and stripped it of flair and instinct. Prefer a more attacking approach a la GT.

[samoht]

I'm guessing your criticism in September 2009 included predictions Lyon was not capable of being a premiership coach and would ultimately never be a premiership coach. Was that how worried you were in September 2009?

You're guessing wrong.
My concerns were based on reality - on how our defensive pressure had mysteriously tapered off - not on what may or may not take place in the future.
How would anyone know that - how could I foresee what heights or depths were in store for Lyon?

I was probably hoping at that stage that Lyon would turn things around - amp up our defensive pressure back to where it should have been.

Anyway, enough said.

You can lionise Lyon all you like - go for it - but I don't appreciate being disrespected.

You've disrespected scollop, too - fact is, the "voices" and concerns (you've alluded to) surrounding Lyon (such as: our defensive pressure, choosing Robert Eddy and dropping Armo, etc,among other things) ... were being uttered and discussed at the time - and for good reason - like it or not.
This is what the forum is for, after all.
With respect.

[Secret Kiel]

I'm guessing your criticism in September 2009 included predictions Lyon was not capable of being a premiership coach and would ultimately never be a premiership coach. Was that how worried you were in September 2009?

You're guessing wrong.
My concerns were based on reality - on how our defensive pressure had mysteriously tapered off - not on what may or may not take place in the future.
How would anyone know that?

I was probably hoping at that stage that Lyon would turn things around - amp up our defensive pressure back to where it should have been.

Anyway, enough said.

You can lionise Lyon all you like - go for it - but I don't appreciate being disrespected.

You've disrespected scollop, too - fact is, the "voices" and concerns (you've alluded to) surrounding Lyon and our defensive pressure, choosing Robert Eddy and dropping Armo, etc... were being uttered and discussed at the time - and for good reason - like it or not.
This is what the forum is for.

Scollop is delusional in his belief he knew Lyon was a bad coach in 2009 and now you have jumped onboard.

There is one thing to be critical in the moment about an act that happened in or around a game in 2009, happens all the time, I think some Hawks fans
were critical of things Clarko did when they were winning flags, but to jump on a forum to claim you could see Lyons end 10 years before it happened is absolutely what forums are for. But forums are also for laughing and amusement and I hope you never stop contributing.

When does Ratts career end?

[samoht]

Steven Kiel wrote ...
..."but to jump on a forum to claim you could see Lyons end 10 years before it happened is absolutely what forums are for".

Where did I do that? ... if this is not baiting I don't know what is.
How could anyone foresee what heights or depths were in store for Lyon?

[magnifisaint]

Blah blah blah

[samoht]

.. popcorn, anyone?

[samoht]

.. popcorn, anyone?

[whiskers3614]

Should have sacked him immediately after '09 GF.
He said he "forgot" Ball on the bench for most of second half.
Either incompetent or a liar or both.
That's right he and his mate Misson said Ball was only capable of 6 minutes at a time.
Can anybody tell me how many minutes he played in 2010 GFs?

[Secret Kiel]

Steven Kiel wrote ...
..."but to jump on a forum to claim you could see Lyons end 10 years before it happened is absolutely what forums are for".

Where did I do that? ... if this is not baiting I don't know what is.
How could anyone foresee what heights or depths were in store for Lyon?

Oh FFS if you are one of these childish types that defaults to calls of baiting then I'm out.

[The_Dud]

They had a replay of the end of the drawn GF on tv the other day. Could have easily won that game if a bounce of the ball went out way, not just the Milne one.

With 30 seconds to go the ball was being contested 25 metres out, very unlucky no one could get a clean snap to put us even a point up.

I’m no Lyon fan, but he went about as close as you could to becoming a St Kilda legend.

[shanegrambeau]

They had a replay of the end of the drawn GF on tv the other day. Could have easily won that game if a bounce of the ball went out way, not just the Milne one.

With 30 seconds to go the ball was being contested 25 metres out, very unlucky no one could get a clean snap to put us even a point up.

I’m no Lyon fan, but he went about as close as you could to becoming a St Kilda legend.

Yep.
We played in a lot of unattractive low scoring gritty games. It seemed the footy media didn't like it either. Remember Warnie on the footy show after Lyon fled the coup. He was pleased. He said he looked forward to a more attacking and flowing game plan.

We were ready to strike with our bunch of well-trained GT era recruits which we got thanks to the Watson and post-Watson era, so no reason to do anything but pick the players most likely to win the game and RL did it by picking those players and stopping the opposition from winning it at all costs, then with a bit of flair and economy up front. The exceptions were few, Maxy the most hurtful - for Zac. There were the odd elite droppings too.

So in 2011 he might have known, just a wee voice in the back of his mind, saying we are passed it.

We can't blame him for the Lovett disaster either. When he went to Freo, the public still thought of him as up there with Clarko.

[Secret Kiel]

They had a replay of the end of the drawn GF on tv the other day. Could have easily won that game if a bounce of the ball went out way, not just the Milne one.

With 30 seconds to go the ball was being contested 25 metres out, very unlucky no one could get a clean snap to put us even a point up.

I’m no Lyon fan, but he went about as close as you could to becoming a St Kilda legend.

Yep.
We played in a lot of unattractive low scoring gritty games. It seemed the footy media didn't like it either. Remember Warnie on the footy show after Lyon fled the coup. He was pleased. He said he looked forward to a more attacking and flowing game plan.

We were ready to strike with our bunch of well-trained GT era recruits which we got thanks to the Watson and post-Watson era, so no reason to do anything but pick the players most likely to win the game and RL did it by picking those players and stopping the opposition from winning it at all costs, then with a bit of flair and economy up front. The exceptions were few, Maxy the most hurtful - for Zac. There were the odd elite droppings too.

So in 2011 he might have known, just a wee voice in the back of his mind, saying we are passed it.

We can't blame him for the Lovett disaster either. When he went to Freo, the public still thought of him as up there with Clarko.

Ironically the visionaries in this thread conveniently forget that the 09 team was perfectly built for September footy, which is evident in the truly gritty finals gsmes against the Pies and Dogs. In both of those games we were jumped early on the scoreboard. Can't remember what the final score in both of those games was but they must of been wins becuase we played in the GF.

Also I can't exactly remember walking into the MCG on GF day thinking negative thoughts about the head coach and I definitely don't remember being convinced our head coach wasn't going to take us to the promised land. If there is anybody claiming they were convinced on that day then can you please immediately drop everything you are doing and give Basset a call and demand that you replace Ratten as head coach effective immediately.

Oh and please spare us the boring and overly regurgitated clap trap about how Armo playing instead of Eddy would have made the difference. Those type of wank claims are just embarrassing.

[samoht]

Ironically the visionaries in this thread conveniently forget that the 09 team was perfectly built for September footy, which is evident in the truly gritty finals gsmes against the Pies and Dogs. In both of those games we were jumped early on the scoreboard. Can't remember what the final score in both of those games was but they must of been wins becuase we played in the GF.

Also I can't exactly remember walking into the MCG on GF day thinking negative thoughts about the head coach and I definitely don't remember being convinced our head coach wasn't going to take us to the promised land. If there is anybody claiming they were convinced on that day then can you please immediately drop everything you are doing and give Basset a call and demand that you replace Ratten as head coach effective immediately.

Oh and please spare us the boring and overly regurgitated clap trap about how Armo playing instead of Eddy would have made the difference. Those type of wank claims are just embarrassing.

I'm trying to be as polite as possible here ... while you continue to direspect.

You are speaking for yourself - there are other views .

Re: the final vs Bulldog - they had 20 more inside 50's and Harbrow once again ended up with around 40 possesions from the half back line. His two highest possession games - over his career - were against St Kilda - he was allowed free rein.
What happened to our defensive pressure all of a sudden?
It was a fair forum question to ask.

Other forumites were asking why Eddy was continually being picked, while Armo who'd played a massive , massive game vs the Hawks in the weeks leading into the finals was being overlooked.
Armo was not picked in the 2009 GF.

Why not Armo?
Again, a valid forum question to ask.

We just beat the Bulldogs by 7 points in the prelim because we had a champion forward in Riewoldt who was unstoppable that day - and they lacked one - that was the difference at the end.
We only had 40 inside 50's - they finished with 20 more.

[Scollop]

You’re very good at put downs and trying to belittle others

You’re very good with weasel words and with clever anecdotes

...but one thing you’re not good at or you have yet to display is any predictive ability regarding footy. This is a footy forum. Most of us enjoy forecasting and expressing opinions on players, tactics and coaches. You lack the ability to have foresight.

A lot of people on here understand Aussie rules far far better than you Steven Kiel

[Secret Kiel]

Ironically the visionaries in this thread conveniently forget that the 09 team was perfectly built for September footy, which is evident in the truly gritty finals gsmes against the Pies and Dogs. In both of those games we were jumped early on the scoreboard. Can't remember what the final score in both of those games was but they must of been wins becuase we played in the GF.

Also I can't exactly remember walking into the MCG on GF day thinking negative thoughts about the head coach and I definitely don't remember being convinced our head coach wasn't going to take us to the promised land. If there is anybody claiming they were convinced on that day then can you please immediately drop everything you are doing and give Basset a call and demand that you replace Ratten as head coach effective immediately.

Oh and please spare us the boring and overly regurgitated clap trap about how Armo playing instead of Eddy would have made the difference. Those type of wank claims are just embarrassing.

I'm trying to be as polite as possible here ... while you continue to direspect.

You are speaking for yourself - there are other views .

Re: the final vs Bulldog - they had 20 more inside 50's and Harbrow once again ended up with around 40 possesions from the half back line. His two highest possession games - over his career - were against St Kilda - he was allowed free rein.
What happened to our defensive pressure all of a sudden?
It was a fair forum question to ask.

Other forumites were asking why Eddy was continually being picked, while Armo who'd played a massive , massive game vs the Hawks in the weeks leading into the finals was being overlooked.
Armo was not picked in the 2009 GF.

Why not Armo?
Again, a valid forum question to ask.

We just beat the Bulldogs by 7 points in the prelim because we had a champion forward in Riewoldt who was unstoppable that day - and they lacked one - that was the difference at the end.
We only had 40 inside 50's - they finished with 20 more.

Blah blah blah. It was over 10 years ago. My view is you are speaking out your bot-bot with claims of vision.

[Secret Kiel]

You’re very good at put downs and trying to belittle others

You’re very good with weasel words and with clever anecdotes

...but one thing you’re not good at or you have yet to display is any predictive ability regarding footy. This is a footy forum. Most of us enjoy forecasting and expressing opinions on players, tactics and coaches. You lack the ability to have foresight.

A lot of people on here understand Aussie rules far far better than you Steven Kiel

Ironically it's the lack of audio that makes your post predictive. Tell me again with the sound turned down how you were able to predict during the 09 season how the head coach wasn't capable of taking us to the promised land. Tell me how you were thinking before the GF in 09 that Lyon was going lose and never win a flag, ever.

Here's a prediction, I bet you continue to make stuff up.