Our forward entries
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- howlinwolf
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Our forward entries
I couldn't have agreed more with Gerard Healy on Fox last night when he showed frustration at our forward entries.
Why do we kick it over a leading forward's head continually ?
Basic footy teaches to kick short to a forward in front and let him run into the ball. Negating the defender right there.
I've seen it with my own eyes. Harvey, short pass to Lockett... goal.
I would have thought this would easily have been rectified with professional coaches.
Are our skills that bad we can't kick to the right position ?
Also, our forwards don't seem to lead in different directions to scatter defences.
We have forwards competeing for the same mark.
After watching our forwards closely for the last few years I don't think we have tested the opposition's defences enough.
Our forwards mostly all lead to the same place, leading defenders to the area, then compete with eachother.
Thoughts ?
Why do we kick it over a leading forward's head continually ?
Basic footy teaches to kick short to a forward in front and let him run into the ball. Negating the defender right there.
I've seen it with my own eyes. Harvey, short pass to Lockett... goal.
I would have thought this would easily have been rectified with professional coaches.
Are our skills that bad we can't kick to the right position ?
Also, our forwards don't seem to lead in different directions to scatter defences.
We have forwards competeing for the same mark.
After watching our forwards closely for the last few years I don't think we have tested the opposition's defences enough.
Our forwards mostly all lead to the same place, leading defenders to the area, then compete with eachother.
Thoughts ?
Robert Harvey's last home game. 24 Aug 2008
StKilda 13.17 def Adelaide 6.11
StKilda 13.17 def Adelaide 6.11
- WellardSaint
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Re: Our forward entries
Against Dees, our guys all scattered to stretch their defence. Last night, Parker spoiled Bruce more than once.
We just kept stuffing up badly.
Rubbish kicks, Gresh tried a miracle goal, etc
We just kept stuffing up badly.
Rubbish kicks, Gresh tried a miracle goal, etc
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Re: Our forward entries
I think the problem is based around the previous game plan to a large degree. The thoughts of Richo was we have 2/3 tall marking forwards when unsure bomb inside 50 10 metres out and we hopefully will mark.howlinwolf wrote: ↑Sun 04 Aug 2019 6:13pm I couldn't have agreed more with Gerard Healy on Fox last night when he showed frustration at our forward entries.
Why do we kick it over a leading forward's head continually ?
Basic footy teaches to kick short to a forward in front and let him run into the ball. Negating the defender right there.
I've seen it with my own eyes. Harvey, short pass to Lockett... goal.
I would have thought this would easily have been rectified with professional coaches.
Are our skills that bad we can't kick to the right position ?
Also, our forwards don't seem to lead in different directions to scatter defences.
We have forwards competeing for the same mark.
After watching our forwards closely for the last few years I don't think we have tested the opposition's defences enough.
Our forwards mostly all lead to the same place, leading defenders to the area, then compete with eachother.
Thoughts ?
Everyone worked this out around 2017 Round 20.
Our structure and forward coaching needs to adjust to the talent we have . Membrey - a stop and prop mark, Bruce a leading and launch mark, King seems to be , on very limited vision , more Bruce than Membrey type. On the ground Lonie stays down but Long and Parker seem to fly more than stay which needs to be worked on.
That said i think a huge problem is the delivery. I look at the list of potential players who make this kick in. Too many would be in the average department - Ross, Billings, Steele, Steven, . I would only say perhaps Dunstan , Savage, Gresham woul dbe above average in delivery. This can be argued but point being we lack elite ball users. There is no Winmar, Dal Santo , Montagna of yesteryear . Perhaps Clarke and Coffield will help solve this.
fix this and more space and play to strengths will improve things
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Re: Our forward entries
I actually disagreed wirh Healy.
Adelaide pressured our midfield, which allowed them to force poor entries.
They pressured us, which slowed us down. Slowing us down, allowed them get numbers back.
We don't have Darling and Kennedy down there, so the bomb doesn't work. We don't have Rioli and Ryan as small forwards either.
In my opinion, Adelaide just outpresured us. The Dogs did too at times , so did Melbourne. But against both of them, we pushed back and our effort wore them down.
Adelaide kept harder at it for longer.
We weren't good, dont get me wrong. But for mine the biggest issue was that Adelaide just wanted it more.
Adelaide pressured our midfield, which allowed them to force poor entries.
They pressured us, which slowed us down. Slowing us down, allowed them get numbers back.
We don't have Darling and Kennedy down there, so the bomb doesn't work. We don't have Rioli and Ryan as small forwards either.
In my opinion, Adelaide just outpresured us. The Dogs did too at times , so did Melbourne. But against both of them, we pushed back and our effort wore them down.
Adelaide kept harder at it for longer.
We weren't good, dont get me wrong. But for mine the biggest issue was that Adelaide just wanted it more.
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- howlinwolf
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Re: Our forward entries
But we doubled the crows centre clearances.BarryGrogan wrote: ↑Sun 04 Aug 2019 7:02pm I actually disagreed wirh Healy.
Adelaide pressured our midfield, which allowed them to force poor entries.
They pressured us, which slowed us down. Slowing us down, allowed them get numbers back.
We don't have Darling and Kennedy down there, so the bomb doesn't work. We don't have Rioli and Ryan as small forwards either.
In my opinion, Adelaide just outpresured us. The Dogs did too at times , so did Melbourne. But against both of them, we pushed back and our effort wore them down.
Adelaide kept harder at it for longer.
We weren't good, dont get me wrong. But for mine the biggest issue was that Adelaide just wanted it more.
I think the problem was our disposal to the forward line and our forwards leading to space
Robert Harvey's last home game. 24 Aug 2008
StKilda 13.17 def Adelaide 6.11
StKilda 13.17 def Adelaide 6.11
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Re: Our forward entries
Our clearances were always pressured though.howlinwolf wrote: ↑Sun 04 Aug 2019 7:58pmBut we doubled the crows centre clearances.BarryGrogan wrote: ↑Sun 04 Aug 2019 7:02pm I actually disagreed wirh Healy.
Adelaide pressured our midfield, which allowed them to force poor entries.
They pressured us, which slowed us down. Slowing us down, allowed them get numbers back.
We don't have Darling and Kennedy down there, so the bomb doesn't work. We don't have Rioli and Ryan as small forwards either.
In my opinion, Adelaide just outpresured us. The Dogs did too at times , so did Melbourne. But against both of them, we pushed back and our effort wore them down.
Adelaide kept harder at it for longer.
We weren't good, dont get me wrong. But for mine the biggest issue was that Adelaide just wanted it more.
I think the problem was our disposal to the forward line and our forwards leading to space
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Re: Our forward entries
Yeah this is a residual effect from Richardson’s game plan. It’s too late in the season for Ratts to go changing the team’s game plan. That would only lead to getting in the players’ heads and confusing the hell out of them.
Unfortunately, the strategy just doesn’t hold up against top 8 teams. I think Ratts has done well tweaking it in all the right areas. Our work rate in the middle seems to be improving out of sight since he took over the reins.
Unfortunately, the strategy just doesn’t hold up against top 8 teams. I think Ratts has done well tweaking it in all the right areas. Our work rate in the middle seems to be improving out of sight since he took over the reins.
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Re: Our forward entries
More down to personnel to me
Our only key option is Bruce
Membrey is 188cm so mid-fielder size - and the info I had was that they sent Talia to him to negate him
So apart from Bruce and Membrey we had Lonie, Parker, Long and Hind
And there is the problem
Do you expect then to kick to any of those 4 on the lead?
This is where we miss McCartin and King - and the option to push Marshall forward (noting Bruce relieves in the ruck which compounds the problem)
Our only key option is Bruce
Membrey is 188cm so mid-fielder size - and the info I had was that they sent Talia to him to negate him
So apart from Bruce and Membrey we had Lonie, Parker, Long and Hind
And there is the problem
Do you expect then to kick to any of those 4 on the lead?
This is where we miss McCartin and King - and the option to push Marshall forward (noting Bruce relieves in the ruck which compounds the problem)
- shanegrambeau
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Re: Our forward entries
Fair enough, but did you hear one of the Fox commentators bemoan the fact that Membrey stood for an eternity after a mark outside 50, allowing the Adelaide players to flood our F50?
I think it is part over correction for our dreadful bomb-and-hope strategy of the past - although perhaps, it kind of worked, especially considereing our appalling accuracy last year. Now our timing is crucial. Perhaps Healy was overly technical in insisting that the forwards should work in synchronicity with one another, and only designated forwards should leap, after all that cuts out a lot of opportunistic chances. I had to agree with him at a casual glance however, it looked a mess although we did create quite a few chances that were lost for other reasons like kicking straight.
Ratten has been our forward coach all year. You would think he knows what is going on. There must be so many facets to it, including rotations etc., And then there was the comment that we were too predicable up forward, which kind of contradicts the forward chaos comment.
You're quite brilliant Shane, yeah..terrific!
- WellardSaint
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Re: Our forward entries
After our win against Doggies, in the presser, Ratts said he had been our fwd coach but he gave that role to Skrobalak and 'we've kicked 100 pts for the first time this year so Skro keeps that job now'shanegrambeau wrote: ↑Mon 05 Aug 2019 12:48amFair enough, but did you hear one of the Fox commentators bemoan the fact that Membrey stood for an eternity after a mark outside 50, allowing the Adelaide players to flood our F50?
I think it is part over correction for our dreadful bomb-and-hope strategy of the past - although perhaps, it kind of worked, especially considereing our appalling accuracy last year. Now our timing is crucial. Perhaps Healy was overly technical in insisting that the forwards should work in synchronicity with one another, and only designated forwards should leap, after all that cuts out a lot of opportunistic chances. I had to agree with him at a casual glance however, it looked a mess although we did create quite a few chances that were lost for other reasons like kicking straight.
Ratten has been our forward coach all year. You would think he knows what is going on. There must be so many facets to it, including rotations etc., And then there was the comment that we were too predicable up forward, which kind of contradicts the forward chaos comment.
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- Enrico_Misso
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Re: Our forward entries
What really bugs me is when we win the ball down back and move it quickly to a running player who marks or gathers 70m out, looks forward for a target, can't see a loose man, so winds up just passing it sideways allowing the opposition time to pack the defence, so we end up kicking it to the hot spot and the ball is smothered in a pack and the opportunity is lost.
Adelaide got several goals moving the ball quickly to an open forward line where "Tex" would mark on a lead, or kick to a designated place for a "Betts" to run on to it.
We need to take that risk and move it in a pre-planned way.
Adelaide got several goals moving the ball quickly to an open forward line where "Tex" would mark on a lead, or kick to a designated place for a "Betts" to run on to it.
We need to take that risk and move it in a pre-planned way.
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Re: Our forward entries
We played much better against Dogs and Dees.Enrico_Misso wrote: ↑Mon 05 Aug 2019 2:15am What really bugs me is when we win the ball down back and move it quickly to a running player who marks or gathers 70m out, looks forward for a target, can't see a loose man, so winds up just passing it sideways allowing the opposition time to pack the defence, so we end up kicking it to the hot spot and the ball is smothered in a pack and the opportunity is lost.
Adelaide got several goals moving the ball quickly to an open forward line where "Tex" would mark on a lead, or kick to a designated place for a "Betts" to run on to it.
We need to take that risk and move it in a pre-planned way.
Pyke studied videos of those 2 games and worked out a way to kill our entries.
It's how coaches work.
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- prwilkinson
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Re: Our forward entries
Doesn’t help when 3 St Kilda forwards fly for every single mark. The mids when under pressure didn’t kick it deep to the forward pocket for a throw in either... just kicked it back to Adelaide a lot instead. That was quite frustrating.
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Re: Our forward entries
Adelaide were forcing us to kick from deeper though - meaning wour entries weren't quite as penetrating as thry needed to be to be threatening.
They forced us to enter a bit shallow.
They forced us to enter a bit shallow.
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Re: Our forward entries
It's obvious to me that our midfielders don't have much confidence in their field kicking and the ability to pick out targets. We had guys calling for the ball in good position many times and being ignored, where in a similar situation the Crows players were taking risks and hitting targets with good short passes. We have no silky skills in the middle, and although Gresh is talented, his kicks are ordinary. Also our forwards just have to make hard leads and demand the ball, not try and arm wrestle every contest, or play from behind hoping for the loose ball out back. At least Membrey had the right idea. This is a coaching issue to fix, and it is probably something that Richo didn't do well.
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Re: Our forward entries
It basically comes down to our inability to hit a leading target - Richo was so risk averse the players havent trained that well enough. On Saturday we went from one extreme to another to shallow and not hitting targets to too deep (bombing) no one leading.
The other thing that was mentioned was our lack of lead up players, again that is a trained habit because we are not used to having stay at home forwards. Having said that as a collective apart from Parker our small forwards are not strong 1 on 1 marks.
The other thing that was mentioned was our lack of lead up players, again that is a trained habit because we are not used to having stay at home forwards. Having said that as a collective apart from Parker our small forwards are not strong 1 on 1 marks.
- shanegrambeau
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Re: Our forward entries
Yep agree with both of these points, and maybe that explains why Healy said we were messy yet also predictable...and yes, then we were - have to admit - kind of out coached on that point. They saw us do it and they were prepared. However, I notice a lot of sideways passing when I watch footy now tho, perhaps there are general trends as well as team-particular trends..WellardSaint wrote: ↑Mon 05 Aug 2019 3:48amWe played much better against Dogs and Dees.Enrico_Misso wrote: ↑Mon 05 Aug 2019 2:15am What really bugs me is when we win the ball down back and move it quickly to a running player who marks or gathers 70m out, looks forward for a target, can't see a loose man, so winds up just passing it sideways allowing the opposition time to pack the defence, so we end up kicking it to the hot spot and the ball is smothered in a pack and the opportunity is lost.
Adelaide got several goals moving the ball quickly to an open forward line where "Tex" would mark on a lead, or kick to a designated place for a "Betts" to run on to it.
We need to take that risk and move it in a pre-planned way.
Pyke studied videos of those 2 games and worked out a way to kill our entries.
It's how coaches work.
Caveat for any footy comment I make - I know you all deeply care lol! , I haven't seen a lot of footy and then suddenly (thanks to this forum) I bought a WatchAFL sub...(I live O/S)...two months ago. The first game I saw us win end-to-end was our win was the GC game.
You're quite brilliant Shane, yeah..terrific!