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saintsRrising wrote: ↑Thu 20 Jun 2019 6:10pm
Yes I think he has coached better this year.
But I think that there are ongoing issues like our forward line entries that after coaching for so long indicate that he is not the answer.
Development of youth was meant to have been a key reason of why he was appointed.
I look at our youth at Sandi and in the seniors over his tenure and see little that strikes me as a great developer of young talent.
Marshall is now exciting everyone as a No 1 ruck. But was he groomed for that role at Sandi? No he was not. More we played him in that role in the seniors as all the ruckman apart from the inexperienced rookie Ali were out injured.
I thought ratten was the forward and transition coach. Must be no good either.
Regarding developing players, I think we have done agreat job albeit through adversity. I e. Marshall, battle, wilke, parker, patton, plus ongoing improvement from billings gresh, Steele etc. Etc
My mail is, and I very rarely ever get actual goss from the club, that Ratten and Lade have very big roles this year.
Bigger roles than Cho when it comes to the on-field stuff.
Both have expressed professional frustration at how over-coached they've been, and how they're trying to coach some autonomy into them.
Special mention was made of Billings embracing their new style, and drifting around the ground on his own accord to find the ball.
The rest will take longer to coach it out of them.
So when people say "Cho has coached well this year", from what I've heard, he has. But basically, 'coaching well' is code for 'leave Ratten and Lade alone to fix the s*** that occurred under Cho's nose for the 5 years'.
Interesting mail Barry....
That said Carey article very simplistic (much like Wayne) who just goes with the flow each year.....last year Alan was a dud most likely to be sacked ....this year he’s the messiah and the injection of Lade/Ratten is just a coincidence......it’s all Alan.
Fock off Wayne , look a little deeper, look at 6 years, poor recruitment (I refuse to excuse the Head Coach in that), player development, skill level against quality opposition/pressure , fwd entries .....we’ve also had a much nicer draw this year which seems to have such an influence.......
Hope the club holds the nerve , time to go Alan - I have NO issue after 6 years and can honestly say he’s had a decent run but it’s time for change. No knee jerk reactions we’ve been responsible.
Bye Alan.
Just reported by an ITK on BF that Ratten is off to Nth Melbourne. Typical St Kilda we finally get someone competent, who is capable of taking over and we let him walk to another job. FFS
Impatient Sainter wrote: ↑Fri 21 Jun 2019 12:27am
Just reported by an ITK on BF that Ratten is off to Nth Melbourne. Typical St Kilda we finally get someone competent, who is capable of taking over and we let him walk to another job. FFS
what round is this again?
ITK my rear plug hole.
someone on BF making up rumours a la Caro Wilson?
A real Sainter will pledge allegiance to the ❤ and despise the Pies, the Blues, and the Injectors.
Remember one of the 10 Commandments : Thou shalt have no other team before thee
Scollop wrote: ↑Thu 20 Jun 2019 7:03pm
The problems we see with our gameplan and our style are not new. Our back end of 2017 was as bad as the footy we are playing now.
The excuses regarding list management are just that...excuses!! How can a head coach not be part of the decision making on who he wants in his team?
We had already lost Ben McEvoy when Cho came on board. When Cho was appointed he spent a year at the club and was part of the decision to on trade Rhys Stanley. After Hickey was showing good signs as one of the leagues emerging ruckmen and approched the top 5 best rucks in the competition during 2016, Cho decided after a few games into 2017 that Longer was his preferred option.
I generally agree with his analysis on game day, but he's got this terribly wrong. Most Saints people who follows things a bit closer and who give a stuff would disagree. I'm sure Carey wouldn't worry too much if the Saints stay at between 14th to 9th on the ladder for the next five years.
The article is simplistic bs based on an outsiders views on the club. Carey was probably the best footballer (for value to team/leadership/ability to impact result/kicking accuracy/big game player) I have seen in 30 years but that doesn't mean he has credibility as a footy journo.
We have a bloke who is your modern day tall, strong, agile mid in the mould of a Fyfe, Mundy, Cripps etc..If Acres was allowed to play in the middle and develop his craft he could be one of the clubs most important players. Cho preferred Newnes, Ross, Dunstan and also Weller who would later be delisted rather than play Blake Acres each and every week in the middle. Apologists keep telling us that Blake is lazy. Give it a rest.
Part of the problem is because the head coach is soft. Rooy hinted as such in mid 2018. It wasn't bad luck that Billings took 5 years to be a consistently good player. It wasn't just Paddy McCartin's fault that he wasn't fit enough or his diabetes that was to blame for him not getting up to speed with his fitness until preseason in 2019.
Our marquee matches over the last few years have been horrendous. Richo deflects the balme and points to poor skills, poor confidence and poor leadership. We all know that his defacto coaches and motivators were Roo, Joey, Shinner and Chips. Armo and Gears and Gilbo had been tainted and our young blokes had to listen to their leader blame them for 2018.
Lethlean was forced to appoint an external motivator and LEADER with credibity even though he's from a 'RugbyLeague' background.
Coach of the year...LOL
Are you familiar with dot points?
Are you familiar with the friend/foe function?
I know it's difficult for most Herald Sun readers to read more than the first sentence or two after a headline, but that's ok. They're not the audience I'm targeting.
It's ok to have dotpoints and summaries, but I like to give examples and substance. I realise at times my posts can be a bit too long although in the context of the article I thought it was warranted. I'd rather communicate with people who can comprehend details rather than simply reading headlines.
Scollop wrote: ↑Thu 20 Jun 2019 7:03pm
The problems we see with our gameplan and our style are not new. Our back end of 2017 was as bad as the footy we are playing now.
The excuses regarding list management are just that...excuses!! How can a head coach not be part of the decision making on who he wants in his team?
We had already lost Ben McEvoy when Cho came on board. When Cho was appointed he spent a year at the club and was part of the decision to on trade Rhys Stanley. After Hickey was showing good signs as one of the leagues emerging ruckmen and approched the top 5 best rucks in the competition during 2016, Cho decided after a few games into 2017 that Longer was his preferred option.
I generally agree with his analysis on game day, but he's got this terribly wrong. Most Saints people who follows things a bit closer and who give a stuff would disagree. I'm sure Carey wouldn't worry too much if the Saints stay at between 14th to 9th on the ladder for the next five years.
The article is simplistic bs based on an outsiders views on the club. Carey was probably the best footballer (for value to team/leadership/ability to impact result/kicking accuracy/big game player) I have seen in 30 years but that doesn't mean he has credibility as a footy journo.
We have a bloke who is your modern day tall, strong, agile mid in the mould of a Fyfe, Mundy, Cripps etc..If Acres was allowed to play in the middle and develop his craft he could be one of the clubs most important players. Cho preferred Newnes, Ross, Dunstan and also Weller who would later be delisted rather than play Blake Acres each and every week in the middle. Apologists keep telling us that Blake is lazy. Give it a rest.
Part of the problem is because the head coach is soft. Rooy hinted as such in mid 2018. It wasn't bad luck that Billings took 5 years to be a consistently good player. It wasn't just Paddy McCartin's fault that he wasn't fit enough or his diabetes that was to blame for him not getting up to speed with his fitness until preseason in 2019.
Our marquee matches over the last few years have been horrendous. Richo deflects the balme and points to poor skills, poor confidence and poor leadership. We all know that his defacto coaches and motivators were Roo, Joey, Shinner and Chips. Armo and Gears and Gilbo had been tainted and our young blokes had to listen to their leader blame them for 2018.
Lethlean was forced to appoint an external motivator and LEADER with credibity even though he's from a 'RugbyLeague' background.
Coach of the year...LOL
Good post Scollop. Agree with you ....lots of excuses. He’s had six years. Apart from questionable recruiting decisions on Cho’s watch, abysmally poor player development, a one dimensional game plan and sfa game day flexibility, the biggest issue is his lack of leadership. We will not be a contender whilst he is coach.
Scollop wrote: ↑Thu 20 Jun 2019 7:03pm
The problems we see with our gameplan and our style are not new. Our back end of 2017 was as bad as the footy we are playing now.
The excuses regarding list management are just that...excuses!! How can a head coach not be part of the decision making on who he wants in his team?
We had already lost Ben McEvoy when Cho came on board. When Cho was appointed he spent a year at the club and was part of the decision to on trade Rhys Stanley. After Hickey was showing good signs as one of the leagues emerging ruckmen and approched the top 5 best rucks in the competition during 2016, Cho decided after a few games into 2017 that Longer was his preferred option.
I generally agree with his analysis on game day, but he's got this terribly wrong. Most Saints people who follows things a bit closer and who give a stuff would disagree. I'm sure Carey wouldn't worry too much if the Saints stay at between 14th to 9th on the ladder for the next five years.
The article is simplistic bs based on an outsiders views on the club. Carey was probably the best footballer (for value to team/leadership/ability to impact result/kicking accuracy/big game player) I have seen in 30 years but that doesn't mean he has credibility as a footy journo.
We have a bloke who is your modern day tall, strong, agile mid in the mould of a Fyfe, Mundy, Cripps etc..If Acres was allowed to play in the middle and develop his craft he could be one of the clubs most important players. Cho preferred Newnes, Ross, Dunstan and also Weller who would later be delisted rather than play Blake Acres each and every week in the middle. Apologists keep telling us that Blake is lazy. Give it a rest.
Part of the problem is because the head coach is soft. Rooy hinted as such in mid 2018. It wasn't bad luck that Billings took 5 years to be a consistently good player. It wasn't just Paddy McCartin's fault that he wasn't fit enough or his diabetes that was to blame for him not getting up to speed with his fitness until preseason in 2019.
Our marquee matches over the last few years have been horrendous. Richo deflects the balme and points to poor skills, poor confidence and poor leadership. We all know that his defacto coaches and motivators were Roo, Joey, Shinner and Chips. Armo and Gears and Gilbo had been tainted and our young blokes had to listen to their leader blame them for 2018.
Lethlean was forced to appoint an external motivator and LEADER with credibity even though he's from a 'RugbyLeague' background.
Coach of the year...LOL
Most of this is subjective or just plain inaccurate, but it's how you feel, so fair enough
How did you feel when it was round 13 last year and we had only 1 win at the midway point of the year? If we lose Brett Ratten as an assistant and Richo is still here next year, there is every possibility that we could repeat 2018 all over again.
Forget about opinions. Most people like Wayne Carey couldn't care less whether Saints are succesful or not. The future prosperity of the club means we have an urgent situation and sponsorship and membership will suffer if we do not play finals for another 3-4 years.
Most footy people also feel bad about sinking the boots in because everyone in the industry respects Richo as an all round nice guy. The problem is that the Saints could be sacrificing pleasing a few employees at the expense of the club's long term prospects. Richo is a liability and this administration will be remebered for their inaction in 2018 if the St Kilda entity continues to lose money year on year
Results and the cold hard facts of the Win/Loss ledger cannot be disputed. I have provided links and articles that support my opinions in many previous posts.
I'm happy that Roo has revealed that there is a performance clause for Richo to continue into 2020. He has respected Saints fans and prewarned us that we should not expect the coach and CEO to have any more excuses.
Scollop wrote: ↑Thu 20 Jun 2019 7:03pm
The problems we see with our gameplan and our style are not new. Our back end of 2017 was as bad as the footy we are playing now.
The excuses regarding list management are just that...excuses!! How can a head coach not be part of the decision making on who he wants in his team?
We had already lost Ben McEvoy when Cho came on board. When Cho was appointed he spent a year at the club and was part of the decision to on trade Rhys Stanley. After Hickey was showing good signs as one of the leagues emerging ruckmen and approched the top 5 best rucks in the competition during 2016, Cho decided after a few games into 2017 that Longer was his preferred option.
I generally agree with his analysis on game day, but he's got this terribly wrong. Most Saints people who follows things a bit closer and who give a stuff would disagree. I'm sure Carey wouldn't worry too much if the Saints stay at between 14th to 9th on the ladder for the next five years.
The article is simplistic bs based on an outsiders views on the club. Carey was probably the best footballer (for value to team/leadership/ability to impact result/kicking accuracy/big game player) I have seen in 30 years but that doesn't mean he has credibility as a footy journo.
We have a bloke who is your modern day tall, strong, agile mid in the mould of a Fyfe, Mundy, Cripps etc..If Acres was allowed to play in the middle and develop his craft he could be one of the clubs most important players. Cho preferred Newnes, Ross, Dunstan and also Weller who would later be delisted rather than play Blake Acres each and every week in the middle. Apologists keep telling us that Blake is lazy. Give it a rest.
Part of the problem is because the head coach is soft. Rooy hinted as such in mid 2018. It wasn't bad luck that Billings took 5 years to be a consistently good player. It wasn't just Paddy McCartin's fault that he wasn't fit enough or his diabetes that was to blame for him not getting up to speed with his fitness until preseason in 2019.
Our marquee matches over the last few years have been horrendous. Richo deflects the balme and points to poor skills, poor confidence and poor leadership. We all know that his defacto coaches and motivators were Roo, Joey, Shinner and Chips. Armo and Gears and Gilbo had been tainted and our young blokes had to listen to their leader blame them for 2018.
Lethlean was forced to appoint an external motivator and LEADER with credibity even though he's from a 'RugbyLeague' background.
Coach of the year...LOL
Are you familiar with dot points?
Are you familiar with the friend/foe function?
I know it's difficult for most Herald Sun readers to read more than the first sentence or two after a headline, but that's ok. They're not the audience I'm targeting.
It's ok to have dotpoints and summaries, but I like to give examples and substance. I realise at times my posts can be a bit too long although in the context of the article I thought it was warranted. I'd rather communicate with people who can comprehend details rather than simply reading headlines.
Why would I foe you, I normally get a laugh from your first sentance.
Scollop wrote: ↑Thu 20 Jun 2019 7:03pm
The problems we see with our gameplan and our style are not new. Our back end of 2017 was as bad as the footy we are playing now.
The excuses regarding list management are just that...excuses!! How can a head coach not be part of the decision making on who he wants in his team?
We had already lost Ben McEvoy when Cho came on board. When Cho was appointed he spent a year at the club and was part of the decision to on trade Rhys Stanley. After Hickey was showing good signs as one of the leagues emerging ruckmen and approched the top 5 best rucks in the competition during 2016, Cho decided after a few games into 2017 that Longer was his preferred option.
I generally agree with his analysis on game day, but he's got this terribly wrong. Most Saints people who follows things a bit closer and who give a stuff would disagree. I'm sure Carey wouldn't worry too much if the Saints stay at between 14th to 9th on the ladder for the next five years.
The article is simplistic bs based on an outsiders views on the club. Carey was probably the best footballer (for value to team/leadership/ability to impact result/kicking accuracy/big game player) I have seen in 30 years but that doesn't mean he has credibility as a footy journo.
We have a bloke who is your modern day tall, strong, agile mid in the mould of a Fyfe, Mundy, Cripps etc..If Acres was allowed to play in the middle and develop his craft he could be one of the clubs most important players. Cho preferred Newnes, Ross, Dunstan and also Weller who would later be delisted rather than play Blake Acres each and every week in the middle. Apologists keep telling us that Blake is lazy. Give it a rest.
Part of the problem is because the head coach is soft. Rooy hinted as such in mid 2018. It wasn't bad luck that Billings took 5 years to be a consistently good player. It wasn't just Paddy McCartin's fault that he wasn't fit enough or his diabetes that was to blame for him not getting up to speed with his fitness until preseason in 2019.
Our marquee matches over the last few years have been horrendous. Richo deflects the balme and points to poor skills, poor confidence and poor leadership. We all know that his defacto coaches and motivators were Roo, Joey, Shinner and Chips. Armo and Gears and Gilbo had been tainted and our young blokes had to listen to their leader blame them for 2018.
Lethlean was forced to appoint an external motivator and LEADER with credibity even though he's from a 'RugbyLeague' background.
Coach of the year...LOL
Most of this is subjective or just plain inaccurate, but it's how you feel, so fair enough
How did you feel when it was round 13 last year and we had only 1 win at the midway point of the year? If we lose Brett Ratten as an assistant and Richo is still here next year, there is every possibility that we could repeat 2018 all over again.
Forget about opinions. Most people like Wayne Carey couldn't care less whether Saints are succesful or not. The future prosperity of the club means we have an urgent situation and sponsorship and membership will suffer if we do not play finals for another 3-4 years.
Most footy people also feel bad about sinking the boots in because everyone in the industry respects Richo as an all round nice guy. The problem is that the Saints could be sacrificing pleasing a few employees at the expense of the club's long term prospects. Richo is a liability and this administration will be remebered for their inaction in 2018 if the St Kilda entity continues to lose money year on year
Results and the cold hard facts of the Win/Loss ledger cannot be disputed. I have provided links and articles that support my opinions in many previous posts.
I'm happy that Roo has revealed that there is a performance clause for Richo to continue into 2020. He has respected Saints fans and prewarned us that we should not expect the coach and CEO to have any more excuses.
Again, it's a subjective opinion.
Another more balanced view could be that we are CURRENTLY sitting 6-6 after having been decimated by injuries. On balance that's a pass mark for mine. We have seen a number of players develop this year, which is a plus.
Richo has a performance clause that the club can trigger without incurring a massive payout, so that would seem reasonable for that to run its course?.
So if we are sitting 12 - 10 at years end then richo probably stays, if we achieve something less, he probably doesnt. Seems reasonable?
I am just glad the saints have avoided the knee jerk reaction of sacking the coach for the sake of being seen to be doing something and appeasing the uneducated masses
Impatient Sainter wrote: ↑Fri 21 Jun 2019 12:27am
Just reported by an ITK on BF that Ratten is off to Nth Melbourne. Typical St Kilda we finally get someone competent, who is capable of taking over and we let him walk to another job. FFS
what round is this again?
ITK my rear plug hole.
someone on BF making up rumours a la Caro Wilson?
Interesting. Doesnt seem to fit their narrative around recruiting a shinbone.
Carey certainly paints a reasonable picture, no doubt about it. I just wonder where that 'noise' is really coming from though? surely Wayne doesn't come here for his info??? So, is it possibly from around the club? say, people that would know? I doubt that would be the case too. Maybe it's others within his own sphere, you know, the people he works with that also might have a very educated understanding of what it takes...maybe?
I have supported the Richo leaving fraternity, though I'm not so sure today. his game plan has driven me nuts, but I went and watched Bombers/Hawks game last week and bugger me, you could have put Saints jumpers on both teams and thought it was us Seriously though, only a handful of those players would be welcome to keep them
If Richo gets to keep his job and becomes our second premiership coach, I'll be most happy for him, but yeah, he's on a hiding
BarryGrogan wrote: ↑Thu 20 Jun 2019 10:10pm
My mail is, and I very rarely ever get actual goss from the club, that Ratten and Lade have very big roles this year.
Bigger roles than Cho when it comes to the on-field stuff.
Both have expressed professional frustration at how over-coached they've been, and how they're trying to coach some autonomy into them.
Special mention was made of Billings embracing their new style, and drifting around the ground on his own accord to find the ball.
The rest will take longer to coach it out of them.
So when people say "Cho has coached well this year", from what I've heard, he has. But basically, 'coaching well' is code for 'leave Ratten and Lade alone to fix the s*** that occurred under Cho's nose for the 5 years'.
Unsourced statements such as this one that Ratten and Lade "expressed professional frustration at how over-coached they've been" have to be taken with a grain of salt. But if true then it is my long held contention that it is not AR, but Danny Sexton, St Kilda's Director of Coaching for the past few years that bears greatest responsibility for this. As mentioned in a number of posts on this forum in the past 12 months, I fail to understand how Sexton survived the purge of coaching staff at the end of last season - he has been at the club in a number of coaching roles for more than 12 years which is far too long given the lack of success since 2011.
In essence, AR is answerable to Sexton and whatever the latter's coaching qualifications, he has never played senior AFL football nor worked with elite coaches prior to coming to the Saints. So as much as supporters want to get rid of AR, I believe it is far more important to sack Sexton, and bring in someone as DoC with much greater experience and credibility. I contend that St Kilda will not make finals while Sexton remains at the club.
"To do good is noble. To tell others to do good is even nobler and much less trouble.."
Mark Twain (1835 - 1910) American writer and humorist
BarryGrogan wrote: ↑Thu 20 Jun 2019 10:10pm
My mail is, and I very rarely ever get actual goss from the club, that Ratten and Lade have very big roles this year.
Bigger roles than Cho when it comes to the on-field stuff.
Both have expressed professional frustration at how over-coached they've been, and how they're trying to coach some autonomy into them.
Special mention was made of Billings embracing their new style, and drifting around the ground on his own accord to find the ball.
The rest will take longer to coach it out of them.
So when people say "Cho has coached well this year", from what I've heard, he has. But basically, 'coaching well' is code for 'leave Ratten and Lade alone to fix the s*** that occurred under Cho's nose for the 5 years'.
Unsourced statements such as this one that Ratten and Lade "expressed professional frustration at how over-coached they've been" have to be taken with a grain of salt. But if true then it is my long held contention that it is not AR, but Danny Sexton, St Kilda's Director of Coaching for the past few years that bears greatest responsibility for this. As mentioned in a number of posts on this forum in the past 12 months, I fail to understand how Sexton survived the purge of coaching staff at the end of last season - he has been at the club in a number of coaching roles for more than 12 years which is far too long given the lack of success since 2011.
In essence, AR is answerable to Sexton and whatever the latter's coaching qualifications, he has never played senior AFL football nor worked with elite coaches prior to coming to the Saints. So as much as supporters want to get rid of AR, I believe it is far more important to sack Sexton, and bring in someone as DoC with much greater experience and credibility. I contend that St Kilda will not make finals while Sexton remains at the club.
Great point re Sexton - He has really flown under the radar. Interesting reading about Buckley and Hardwick having to learn to become more hands off and handing responsibility to their assistant coaches. If thats whats occurred to with Richo then thats a good thing and inline with with success models at other clubs. Right now, whatever they are doing is working. If they keep doing well then Richo may stay, if it falls off the rails then he wont.
Thats why i dont want to be part of the negative commentary at this point in the season, nothing to do with being a Richo fan or not. I just want the best coaching structure going forward, whoever is a part of it.
Do we have a "Sack Sexton" subject yet? C'mon moderators, we've tried every angle to get Richo sacked, so now it's time to direct our wrath at someone else!
Impatient Sainter wrote: ↑Fri 21 Jun 2019 12:27am
Just reported by an ITK on BF that Ratten is off to Nth Melbourne. Typical St Kilda we finally get someone competent, who is capable of taking over and we let him walk to another job. FFS
what round is this again?
ITK my rear plug hole.
someone on BF making up rumours a la Caro Wilson?
Agree, what a stupid thing to post when North would only be at the start of their process to select the best candidate. He ("George") admits later that it's just an opinion.
The Fireman wrote: ↑Thu 20 Jun 2019 6:14pm
AT : ALL RICHO LOVERS..say goodbye to him at the end of the season
Time will tell. In fact all will be revealed come season's end, I would think.
bring it on. Next year under a new coach we will have hope once again.
A new coach will teach us to win interstate, overseas, or at least be competitive.
and get the best out of our guys.
I have faith in that.
Losing to Freo (who are currently 6th) by 5 points was competitive
Losing to GWS but couldn't kick straight/maximise opportunities was competitive
China was s*** but to say we went in underdone would be a gross understatement
Winning against GC in Townsville wasn't pretty but it was a win nonetheless
Laurie wrote: ↑Sat 22 Jun 2019 2:55pm
Pffffft dream on
Our playing list is not good enough off load them before the coach.
There are dozens and dozens of footballers who have gone from ordinary footballers u der one coach, to very good footballers under another.
Similarly, there are doxens and dozens of foorballers who have been ordinary in one position or role - then bevome guns in different roles.
Our list is good. Not a top 2 list, but it's good nonetheless. Cho, Ratten and Lade just need to cleanse them of the Kingsley era and they'll start to shine.
SydneySainter wrote: ↑Thu 20 Jun 2019 5:52pm
So if David King wrote that the Saints will never win a flag under Richo, would he also be right?
That's his opinion. I dont rate his footy nous as high as Carey.
I also take that to mean that he thinks Richo will get us to a grand final, but just wont win it. Otherwise he would have said" we wont make a gf under richo
Well previously you were defending the recruitment and saying the players were just poorly developed.
and despise the Pies, the Blues, and the Injectors.
Seriously though, only a handful of those players would be welcome to keep them
