If we had the right recruiters ...

[samoht]

we wouldn't be in the mess we're in.

This is the crux of our problem.

We need more brave, unrelenting hard-bodied, physically strong players with elite/above average skills like Jack Steele - who's developing beautifully - we got him right.
If we were to add a couple of daring, gut running outside midfielders with elite skills, we'd be well on our way.

If recruiters can make Buckley and Hardwick into "great" coaches - they can do that with anyone.

The non-negotiables that we need to adhere to from now on ....
We need to recruit and only recruit young, robust/strong-bodied players with courage and skill - these are the 4 non-negotiables - youth, courage, toughness/strong bodies and skill - one rule for every recruit, and all 4 boxes need to be ticked, and we need to recruit to our team's needs at all times. We need to stop recruiting the same average types over and over.

[saintadamski]

Couldn't agree more.

Great to read posts like this...I am so over the 'Coach can't develop' Balsheit.

The list is as rotten as I've seen it.

[Saintmatt]

Of course a coach can only coach the players he's got. Agree entirely. Alan Jeans always said it's the players that makes the coach.

But - the coach has a massive say on how those players play. For instance, Grant Thomas and Ross Lyon had the same core nucleus of players ... yet they played completely different game styles - borderline polar opposite. So - it's too simplistic to say it's one or the other.

Yes - our list is rotten ... but mainly because it's unbalanced. Too many average of the same type (undersized HBF's) and not enough good in those that we have few of (outside mids).

Compounding this of course is (1) sub-standard development (even those working at the club - i.e. Dal Santo - note this) and (2) a game plan designed around our list's few strengths that gives us a chance to win each week.

The former is the responsibility of the Football Manager; the latter the responsibility of the Senior Coach.

Not always about the players/not always solely about the Coach. The two are completely co-dependent.

[Scollop]

I wouldn't call Shaun Higgins, or Andrew Gaff or Josh Kelly
or Tom Scully or Jayden Stevenson robust but they go ok

[samoht]

I wouldn't call Shaun Higgins, or Andrew Gaff or Josh Kelly
or Tom Scully or Jayden Stevenson robust but they go ok

I was thinking of players we've recruited such as Wright (who's definitely brave) and O'Kearney who are slightly built, and are not really robust enough for AFL - they get pushed around too easily or bounce off players they are trying to tackle.
Shaun Higgins and Andrew Gaff have very strong builds (they are beasts), and Scully and Josh Kelly are more robust/physically stronger - have more core strength, put it that way - than Wright and O'Kearney.
Stevenson needs to build up, for sure - but he's such a clever player, he can probably get away with his slight build for now. Collingwood nailed that pick - and good on them.

[Cairnsman]

Couldn't agree more.

Great to read posts like this...I am so over the 'Coach can't develop' Balsheit.

The list is as rotten as I've seen it.

A genuine question, have you only been supporting the club post 1999?

There have been pundits in the media, David King is one of them that believe the list has got a core of talent to work with. I think we've got a great core of talent. The future is bright with this current core.

Isn't the list still in a rebuild cycle? Albeit we are only 5 years in and still 2 or 3 years away from being a consistent finals contender.

Nothing has changed, isn't this year and the next few years at the trade table about continuing the list enhancement.

Enhancement, not cut the guts out and start again.

This notion that you can build a flag contending list in under 5 years from a very low base is a creation of our own making.

How long have GWS been going and how much supercharging did they get and they have been rebuilding for longer than us.

The biggest cockup made of recent times was overcooking expectations. But that's an industry thing with entitlement and instant gratification being the products.

The oxen is slow but the earth is patient.

[prwilkinson]

Couldn't agree more.

Great to read posts like this...I am so over the 'Coach can't develop' Balsheit.

The list is as rotten as I've seen it.

I heard someone call the current st kilda list ‘A shitheap’ the other day. Seems rather fitting.

[Zed]

young, robust/strong-bodied players with courage and skill

You could easily argue that all of Dunstan, Acres, Billings, McCartin, Goddard, McKenzie all met this criteria when they were recruited.

I would say skill, footy smarts, and pace need to be prioritised followed by a minimum height of 185cm

[Jacks Back]

The non-negotiables that we need to adhere to from now on ....
We need to recruit and only recruit young, robust/strong-bodied players with courage and skill - these are the 4 non-negotiables - youth, courage, toughness/strong bodies and skill - one rule for every recruit, and all 4 boxes need to be ticked, and we need to recruit to our team's needs at all times. We need to stop recruiting the same average types over and over.

5th non-negotiable - They have to be from a good family.

[BenLong#21]

The Cho has NFI.
He is part of the list management and selection teams.
You cant excuse him from the list mgt after 5 years at the helm.
It is the Cho who decides to play the likes of Weller, Newnes, Savage and Geary week in week out.
It is the Cho who picks Paddy and ignores the bleeding obvious - that he isnt fit enough.

[saintadamski]

Couldn't agree more.

Great to read posts like this...I am so over the 'Coach can't develop' Balsheit.

The list is as rotten as I've seen it.

A genuine question, have you only been supporting the club post 1999?

There have been pundits in the media, David King is one of them that believe the list has got a core of talent to work with. I think we've got a great core of talent. The future is bright with this current core.

Isn't the list still in a rebuild cycle? Albeit we are only 5 years in and still 2 or 3 years away from being a consistent finals contender.

Nothing has changed, isn't this year and the next few years at the trade table about continuing the list enhancement.

Enhancement, not cut the guts out and start again.

This notion that you can build a flag contending list in under 5 years from a very low base is a creation of our own making.

How long have GWS been going and how much supercharging did they get and they have been rebuilding for longer than us.

The biggest cockup made of recent times was overcooking expectations. But that's an industry thing with entitlement and instant gratification being the products.

The oxen is slow but the earth is patient.

That's not a genuine question... merely an offensive one.

A great core of talent? Let me ask you a 'genuine' question...did you actually watch a game this year?

A rebuild cycle? How long is a rebuild cycle exactly? For some it's 2 years, for others, 30 years. Why don't you tell me exactly how long a rebuild cycle should be?

And as for our 'core' of talent...Newnes, Weller, Savage, Sinclair, Armitage, Brown, Hickey, Longer, Geary, McKenzie, Longer, McCartin...is this our core of amazing talent?

And let me ask you another 'genuine question'....are you on crack?
And do you know what a bottom 3 side looks like?? Well let me enlighten you ...read the names above, and wake the hell up.

[Cairnsman]

Couldn't agree more.

Great to read posts like this...I am so over the 'Coach can't develop' Balsheit.

The list is as rotten as I've seen it.

A genuine question, have you only been supporting the club post 1999?

There have been pundits in the media, David King is one of them that believe the list has got a core of talent to work with. I think we've got a great core of talent. The future is bright with this current core.

Isn't the list still in a rebuild cycle? Albeit we are only 5 years in and still 2 or 3 years away from being a consistent finals contender.

Nothing has changed, isn't this year and the next few years at the trade table about continuing the list enhancement.

Enhancement, not cut the guts out and start again.

This notion that you can build a flag contending list in under 5 years from a very low base is a creation of our own making.

How long have GWS been going and how much supercharging did they get and they have been rebuilding for longer than us.

The biggest cockup made of recent times was overcooking expectations. But that's an industry thing with entitlement and instant gratification being the products.

The oxen is slow but the earth is patient.

That's not a genuine question... merely an offensive one.

A great core of talent? Let me ask you a 'genuine' question...did you actually watch a game this year?

A rebuild cycle? How long is a rebuild cycle exactly? For some it's 2 years, for others, 30 years. Why don't you tell me exactly how long a rebuild cycle should be?

And as for our 'core' of talent...Newnes, Weller, Savage, Sinclair, Armitage, Brown, Hickey, Longer, Geary, McKenzie, Longer, McCartin...is this our core of amazing talent?

And let me ask you another 'genuine question'....are you on crack?
And do you know what a bottom 3 side looks like?? Well let me enlighten you ...read the names above, and wake the hell up.

Ok what about post 2005?

[saintadamski]

Couldn't agree more.

Great to read posts like this...I am so over the 'Coach can't develop' Balsheit.

The list is as rotten as I've seen it.

A genuine question, have you only been supporting the club post 1999?

There have been pundits in the media, David King is one of them that believe the list has got a core of talent to work with. I think we've got a great core of talent. The future is bright with this current core.

Isn't the list still in a rebuild cycle? Albeit we are only 5 years in and still 2 or 3 years away from being a consistent finals contender.

Nothing has changed, isn't this year and the next few years at the trade table about continuing the list enhancement.

Enhancement, not cut the guts out and start again.

This notion that you can build a flag contending list in under 5 years from a very low base is a creation of our own making.

How long have GWS been going and how much supercharging did they get and they have been rebuilding for longer than us.

The biggest cockup made of recent times was overcooking expectations. But that's an industry thing with entitlement and instant gratification being the products.

The oxen is slow but the earth is patient.

That's not a genuine question... merely an offensive one.

A great core of talent? Let me ask you a 'genuine' question...did you actually watch a game this year?

A rebuild cycle? How long is a rebuild cycle exactly? For some it's 2 years, for others, 30 years. Why don't you tell me exactly how long a rebuild cycle should be?

And as for our 'core' of talent...Newnes, Weller, Savage, Sinclair, Armitage, Brown, Hickey, Longer, Geary, McKenzie, Longer, McCartin...is this our core of amazing talent?

And let me ask you another 'genuine question'....are you on crack?
And do you know what a bottom 3 side looks like?? Well let me enlighten you ...read the names above, and wake the hell up.

Ok what about post 2005?

What about it? What are you cryptically trying to say?

[saintspremiers]

Whatever our list is I don’t really know.

The reason is simple - the players don’t give a Shyte when they were on the park this year.


Players are generally playing for themselves not the team or the coach.

The Cho has been unable to galvanise the team into a hungry unit. They were going through the motions and picking up their paychekcs.

I don’t blame the players for their lack of motivation.

I 100% blame the coach.

[samoht]

That's tangential to what we're discussing, saintspremier ..
I mean do we blame the players' attitude or their lack of motivation for having ended up with multiples of the same types - 4 to 6 C grade ruckmen, a multiple of half back flankers and a multiple of inside midfielders with average skills?
No - we blame our recruiters for that - for their recruiting without a plan and without having the overall balance of the team and its needs in mind. Their scattergun/scatterbrained recruiting, in other words.
Every time we recruit from now on, there needs to be some non-negotiables - a quality control checklist if you like - that needs to be ticked off before we recruit/draft players,
to ensure that we:
a. target the right players
with
b. the requisite skills
and according to ..
c. our team's needs.
So if our team needs outside midfielders with pace and skill, for instance --- we don't end up recruiting even more average inside midfielders, and another C grade ruckman, instead.

[rodgerfox]

That's tangential to what we're discussing, saintspremier ..
I mean do we blame the players' attitude or their lack of motivation for having ended up with multiples of the same types - 4 to 6 C grade ruckmen, a multiple of half back flankers and a multiple of inside midfielders with average skills?
No - we blame the recruiters for that - for their recruiting without a plan and without having the overall balance of the team and its needs in mind. Their scattergun/scatterbrained recruiting, in other words.
Every time we recruit from now on, there needs to be some non-negotiables - a quality control checklist if you like - that needs to be ticked off before we recruit/draft players,
to ensure that we:
a. target the right players
with
b. the requisite skills
and according to ..
c. our team's needs.
So if our team needs outside midfielders with pace and skill, for instance --- we don't end up recruiting even more average inside midfielders, and another C grade ruckman, instead.

I think our selection policy and playing style suggests that we're recruiting exactly what the coach wants.

[samoht]

That's tangential to what we're discussing, saintspremier ..
I mean do we blame the players' attitude or their lack of motivation for having ended up with multiples of the same types - 4 to 6 C grade ruckmen, a multiple of half back flankers and a multiple of inside midfielders with average skills?
No - we blame the recruiters for that - for their recruiting without a plan and without having the overall balance of the team and its needs in mind. Their scattergun/scatterbrained recruiting, in other words.
Every time we recruit from now on, there needs to be some non-negotiables - a quality control checklist if you like - that needs to be ticked off before we recruit/draft players,
to ensure that we:
a. target the right players
with
b. the requisite skills
and according to ..
c. our team's needs.
So if our team needs outside midfielders with pace and skill, for instance --- we don't end up recruiting even more average inside midfielders, and another C grade ruckman, instead.

I think our selection policy and playing style suggests that we're recruiting exactly what the coach wants.

No coach can undo years and years of scattergun recruiting - over the last 10-12 years, I'm talking about, and Richo has only been coach over the last 5 of those years. Our scattergun/scatterbrained recruiting approach should have been ditched years before Richo came on board - it just continued during his years. Good luck with 6 C grade ruckmen, multiple half back flankers and multiple inside midfielders with average skills - our recruiters' handiwork.

[Scollop]

Some of these so called C graders you refer to were taken as top 10 draft picks ( Billy Longer). A few others were top 20 draft picks that you claim had average skills ( Luke Dunstan was widely regarded ) and not forgetting a guy like McCartin that was clearly in the mix as a top 5 pick who we chose as our #1 pick at the end of 2014.

If you go back and read the blurb on them as 18 year olds it tells a different story. I mean if they were seen as C graders they would have been late 2nd or 3rd round picks or rookie picks.

Nearly ALL of the 18 year olds that come into a professional AFL system need the right development (and need their workload properly managed) to set themselves up for a successful career. These young players have been under Richo for 5 years - not just 2 or 3 or 4 years. He has led our team and he is responsible for the growth and improvement in each and every player whether he likes it or not (or whether you agree with it or not). He is also responsible for assessing the competence of his football department and his assistants.

You're focusing on a very significant factor (with sub standard recruiting being a large part of the isssues with our team's current performance over the last 12 months) but I'd argue that after the recruitment of a young draftee, there is the coaching and development which would take up a higher proportion than 50% of our issues. Yes we sacked the head recruiter but I reckon > 50% of the problem is our development which is why the current board and admin are making changes to the coaching department

[rodgerfox]

That's tangential to what we're discussing, saintspremier ..
I mean do we blame the players' attitude or their lack of motivation for having ended up with multiples of the same types - 4 to 6 C grade ruckmen, a multiple of half back flankers and a multiple of inside midfielders with average skills?
No - we blame the recruiters for that - for their recruiting without a plan and without having the overall balance of the team and its needs in mind. Their scattergun/scatterbrained recruiting, in other words.
Every time we recruit from now on, there needs to be some non-negotiables - a quality control checklist if you like - that needs to be ticked off before we recruit/draft players,
to ensure that we:
a. target the right players
with
b. the requisite skills
and according to ..
c. our team's needs.
So if our team needs outside midfielders with pace and skill, for instance --- we don't end up recruiting even more average inside midfielders, and another C grade ruckman, instead.

I think our selection policy and playing style suggests that we're recruiting exactly what the coach wants.

No coach can undo years and years of scattergun recruiting - over the last 10-12 years, I'm talking about, and Richo has only been coach over the last 5 of those years. Our recruiters and scattergun recruiting approach should have been overhauled years before Richo came on board. Good luck with 6 C grade ruckmen, multiple half back flankers and multiple inside midfielders with average skills - our recruiters' handiwork.

But Richo consistently gives games to average ruckman that don't win the pill, whilst leaving a young one with some talent at Frankston.

He keeps playing Savage every week, in the same team as McKenzie, Rice, Geary and Webster. He builds his team e wry week, and has since the day he arrived from the half back line.
He plays Ross, Dunstan, Steele and Armitage in the same team together all the time.

He talks of being 'strong' and 'pressure' constantly, but never speaks of technique or method.

He seems to love blokes getting concussed, as some sort of indication that they are playing 'strong' footy.


It's not far fetched at all, to suggest that the recruiters have been the total opposite of 'scatter gun' in their approach. They seem to be recruiting exactly the type of players that the coach loves, and that fit into his game style and football philosophy.

[samoht]

Yes, scollop, but are they the right types and what we needed? We already had big boy.

Where are our elite outside midfielders? - how many have we recruited since the Lyon years, when it became obvious we needed more spread and run - we had bottom of the ladder teams like Essendon tearing us apart, under Lyon, with their speed.
DeGoey for instance is what we needed - as he ticks all the boxes -- robust build - tick, skillful - tick, outside abilty - tick, courageous - tick --- x factor - big tick.

Why aren't we recruiting according to our team's needs, and why are we quadrupling up on the same average types with no X factor.

[Scollop]

The Cho has NFI.
He is part of the list management and selection teams.
You cant excuse him from the list mgt after 5 years at the helm.
It is the Cho who decides to play the likes of Weller, Newnes, Savage and Geary week in week out.
It is the Cho who picks Paddy and ignores the bleeding obvious - that he isnt fit enough.

+ 1

[Scollop]

That's tangential to what we're discussing, saintspremier ..
I mean do we blame the players' attitude or their lack of motivation for having ended up with multiples of the same types - 4 to 6 C grade ruckmen, a multiple of half back flankers and a multiple of inside midfielders with average skills?
No - we blame the recruiters for that - for their recruiting without a plan and without having the overall balance of the team and its needs in mind. Their scattergun/scatterbrained recruiting, in other words.
Every time we recruit from now on, there needs to be some non-negotiables - a quality control checklist if you like - that needs to be ticked off before we recruit/draft players,
to ensure that we:
a. target the right players
with
b. the requisite skills
and according to ..
c. our team's needs.
So if our team needs outside midfielders with pace and skill, for instance --- we don't end up recruiting even more average inside midfielders, and another C grade ruckman, instead.

I think our selection policy and playing style suggests that we're recruiting exactly what the coach wants.

No coach can undo years and years of scattergun recruiting - over the last 10-12 years, I'm talking about, and Richo has only been coach over the last 5 of those years. Our recruiters and scattergun recruiting approach should have been overhauled years before Richo came on board. Good luck with 6 C grade ruckmen, multiple half back flankers and multiple inside midfielders with average skills - our recruiters' handiwork.

But Richo consistently gives games to average ruckman that don't win the pill, whilst leaving a young one with some talent at Frankston.

He keeps playing Savage every week, in the same team as McKenzie, Rice, Geary and Webster. He builds his team e wry week, and has since the day he arrived from the half back line.
He plays Ross, Dunstan, Steele and Armitage in the same team together all the time.

He talks of being 'strong' and 'pressure' constantly, but never speaks of technique or method.

He seems to love blokes getting concussed, as some sort of indication that they are playing 'strong' footy.


It's not far fetched at all, to suggest that the recruiters have been the total opposite of 'scatter gun' in their approach. They seem to be recruiting exactly the type of players that the coach loves, and that fit into his game style and football philosophy.

+ 1

[Scollop]

Why aren't we recruiting according to our team's needs, and why are we quadrupling up on the same types with no X factor.

Rodg and BenLong have already answered

[samoht]

The Cho has NFI.
He is part of the list management and selection teams.
You cant excuse him from the list mgt after 5 years at the helm.
It is the Cho who decides to play the likes of Weller, Newnes, Savage and Geary week in week out.
It is the Cho who picks Paddy and ignores the bleeding obvious - that he isnt fit enough.

+ 1

Our coach might have little choice. Which A graders are Weller, Newnes, Savage and Geary keeping out of the team - is it DeGoey, Brayshaw (we wish)? Weller was dropped, anyway.
Where are our skillful outside midfielders - why didn't we recruit/draft a player with outside ability and X factor like De Goey? We had too many inside midfielders with average skills - and just kept recruiting more, and we overlooked a robust, quick, skillful player with X factor and outside running ability like DeGoey. We also overlooked an A grade skillful midfielder in the making, in Brayshaw. Inexcusable. Our recruiters have no plan and NFI - they just recruit willy nilly.
Anyway, I've had my say - this thread was about "if we had the right recruiters" ... but most of you keep bringing it back to "coach and development", which has already been discussed to death ... so I take it that most of you must be over the moon with our scattergun recruiting, and see no harm in it or are just indifferent to it.

[saintadamski]

The Cho has NFI.
He is part of the list management and selection teams.
You cant excuse him from the list mgt after 5 years at the helm.
It is the Cho who decides to play the likes of Weller, Newnes, Savage and Geary week in week out.
It is the Cho who picks Paddy and ignores the bleeding obvious - that he isnt fit enough.

+ 1

Our coach might have little choice. Which A graders are Weller, Newnes, Savage and Geary keeping out of the team - is it DeGoey, Brayshaw (we wish)? Weller was dropped, anyway.
Where are our skillful outside midfielders - why didn't we recruit/draft a player with outside ability and X factor like De Goey? We had too many inside midfielders with average skills - and just kept recruiting more, and we overlooked a robust, quick, skillful player with X factor and outside running ability like DeGoey. We also overlooked an A grade skillful midfielder in the making, in Brayshaw. Inexcusable. Our recruiters have no plan and NFI - they just recruit willy nilly.
Anyway, I've had my say - this thread was about "if we had the right recruiters" ... but most of you keep bringing it back to "coach and development", which has already been discussed to death ... so I take it that most of you must be over the moon with our scattergun recruiting, and see no harm in it or are just indifferent to it.

+1

and on another topic - I feel we should be drafting Rankine if he is still available

Quick running ability - tick
skilled - tick
smart footy brain - tick
X factor - huge tick