What if Parkey S is right....?

[Yorkeys]

The form line might not be as bad as first glance (through tears of course) suggests: North are giving Sydney a run, Adelaide continue to win as do Hawthorn, Geelong seem capable. If Roberton's heart hadn't played up, Bruce, Membrey and Webster didn't have hip/back issues, Billy didn't get neutered early, it wasn't poor conditions in Launceston, my aunty had nuts etc; but maybe we are not completely hopeless, just a tad sloppy with disposal and the selectors don't have our talent for putting the best side on the paddock. Gasp - what if Parkey Sainter and Jiggster have really valid points.... cue Twilight Zone music... do do do do do, yes do do it tomorrow.

[Wayne42]

Pie in the Sky stuff, we are crap, Elshaug's recruiting and our development coaches are woeful.

You can't be the best if you recruit mostly B Grade talent that has sub standard disposal.

[BackFromUSA]

But Carlton has recruited 14 round 1 draft picks and remain winless. Could the answer be that both sides have very young lists with very few influential older statesmen? Both lists lack players aged 24-28 which is the peak performance years for AFL.

[stonecold]

But Carlton has recruited 14 round 1 draft picks and remain winless. Could the answer be that both sides have very young lists with very few influential older statesmen? Both lists lack players aged 24-28 which is the peak performance years for AFL.

Yes, that is correct, thus why players such as Gilbo, Brown keep getting a game!!!!!

[David-Lee]

Average age of players at a club...there's only a year +/- between us and the top clubs so I guess 2019 we are a top 4 club!!!

We do lack elder statesman only having....Geary, Gilbert, Stevens, Brown, and Armitage with more than 130 games played.

It is a sign of our poor recruiting, free agency, and coaching to not have planned to have the correct mix of players....this is why North dipped for a short time and rose up and why in mid season Hawthorn crashes and rebuilds in 7 games!!!

We had a club champion we could have traded at the end of 2016 when he had the most Mark's in the AFL...like Hawks gave up 2 club champs, because it wasn't about the individual or sentimental rubbish but a way to keep the club strong.
Keeping Roo felt so right to me but in my gut I knew it was wrong, we had a chance to get insane talent in a trade but we held on to memories because we "owed" it to a wonderful and likely greatest St Kilda player ever.

Hawks staff had death threats and even significant vandalism after dumping their 2 champs...but they were ruthless for the next generation because the club mattered more than paying back loyal warriors.


We dont have experience not experienced champions.We have misguided young men who dont know what to do onfield and the coaches box can only sit and blame poor skills.

We need 2-3 experienced players in 2019....why we didn't get this sorted in 2017/18 I dont know.

We need a new coach and staff. Recruiting I reckon has been ok, the weak clubs like ours often fail in recruiting so it's not a mind blowing thing...its what we expect.

When we end up in the bottom dwellers at the end of season ( please Saints prove me wrong) I reckon it's time for posters on here who consistently claim we are just a hairs breadth from success to to hang up their boots forever...a rebuild cant be 6+ years....

[dragit]

If Parky S is right then we have a team full of brownlow medalists and there is no need for a discussion forum, because our coaching and admin teams are flawless… we're on track for ten consecutive flags.

I prefer reality, even when it bites.

[BackFromUSA]

Average age of players at a club...there's only a year +/- between us and the top clubs so I guess 2019 we are a top 4 club!!!

We do lack elder statesman only having....Geary, Gilbert, Stevens, Brown, and Armitage with more than 130 games played.

It is a sign of our poor recruiting, free agency, and coaching to not have planned to have the correct mix of players....this is why North dipped for a short time and rose up and why in mid season Hawthorn crashes and rebuilds in 7 games!!!

We had a club champion we could have traded at the end of 2016 when he had the most Mark's in the AFL...like Hawks gave up 2 club champs, because it wasn't about the individual or sentimental rubbish but a way to keep the club strong.
Keeping Roo felt so right to me but in my gut I knew it was wrong, we had s chance to get insane talent in a trade but we held on to memories because we "owed" it to a wonderful and likely greatest St Kilda player ever.


We dont have experience not experienced champions.We have misguided young men who dont know what to do onfield and the coaches box can only sit and blame poor skills.

We need 2-3 experienced players in 2019....why we didn't get thos sorted in 2017/18 I dont know.

There is a massive difference between average age and age profile!

How many players do we have in the team aged 24-28?

How many older statesmen are role players versus game breakers / influencers. Only Jack Steven sits there and Arno if he can get back to his best.

This was always going to be a problem once Riewoldt, Montagna, Dempster retired.

The original plan called for high quality free agents or trades in the past 2 years and they haven’t materialised as the market changed with a vastly increased salary cap and clubs able to retain the quality players.

Once we decided to keep the 2 early draft picks this year, then we were committing to extending the rebuild a few years.

When our core midfield of Ross, Billings, Acres, Dunstan, Gresham, Steele, Sinclair hits 24/ 25 / 26 / 27 with Long, Coffield, Clarke and future early draftees supporting them - our real window will open.

[saintspremiers]

Great post David-Lee.

You really hit a raw nerve re Roo. It takes masses of guts to do what the Hawks continually do re list management.

Key difference is when you look at the Box Hill Hawks, they know how to develop players, and have been doing a great job for about a decade now in that sphere.

Also look at our (now) $30M Moorabbin development, which is terrific. Hawks are planning a $100M HQ and have had Waverley for so long it prob is due for a Reno!

[spert]

Average age of players at a club...there's only a year +/- between us and the top clubs so I guess 2019 we are a top 4 club!!!

We do lack elder statesman only having....Geary, Gilbert, Stevens, Brown, and Armitage with more than 130 games played.

It is a sign of our poor recruiting, free agency, and coaching to not have planned to have the correct mix of players....this is why North dipped for a short time and rose up and why in mid season Hawthorn crashes and rebuilds in 7 games!!!

We had a club champion we could have traded at the end of 2016 when he had the most Mark's in the AFL...like Hawks gave up 2 club champs, because it wasn't about the individual or sentimental rubbish but a way to keep the club strong.
Keeping Roo felt so right to me but in my gut I knew it was wrong, we had a chance to get insane talent in a trade but we held on to memories because we "owed" it to a wonderful and likely greatest St Kilda player ever.

Hawks staff had death threats and even significant vandalism after dumping their 2 champs...but they were ruthless for the next generation because the club mattered more than paying back loyal warriors.


We dont have experience not experienced champions.We have misguided young men who dont know what to do onfield and the coaches box can only sit and blame poor skills.

We need 2-3 experienced players in 2019....why we didn't get this sorted in 2017/18 I dont know.

We need a new coach and staff. Recruiting I reckon has been ok, the weak clubs like ours often fail in recruiting so it's not a mind blowing thing...its what we expect.

When we end up in the bottom dwellers at the end of season ( please Saints prove me wrong) I reckon it's time for posters on here who consistently claim we are just a hairs breadth from success to to hang up their boots forever...a rebuild cant be 6+ years....

Good points you make.. I personally think that we should have looked at a major list shakeup after Lyon left and that would have included trading Roo probably. I think Watters saw who could and couldn't perform after the GF loss and I suspect he wanted to make big changes, which would have stood on a lot of toes, which I reckon was part of the reason he got the flick but that's history.

I don't see a team playing for the coach at the moment, and unless they all wake up today and change their attitude as a whole, nothing will change. Too many promising players are treading water, or going backwards- how do you build success on a wobbly base like that? Thank god we at least got Carlise, and to a lesser extent, Brown, as we would have been flogged by greater margins in our losses this season without their stability down back.

Who knows what might happen today against Melbourne, if we do win, great, but it can't disguise the fact that we fell away badly last season, and now look worse.

[desertsaint]

C'mon now. Comparing the Hawks trading Mitchell and Lewsi with us trading Roo?
They practically gave them away - Lewis, Mitchell, picks 54, 57, 68, and 72, in exchange for picks 48, 52, 66, 70, 88.
They did it to release salary cap pressure to pay T.Mitchell and O'Meara.
We had no reason to do so. They also kept senior players like Hodge and Burgoyne on. If we'd traded out (for peanuts) Roo and Joey we would have been left as we are now. That's one less year of development for youngsters under two outstanding mentors wings.

[dragit]

Great post David-Lee.

You really hit a raw nerve re Roo. It takes masses of guts to do what the Hawks continually do re list management.

Key difference is when you look at the Box Hill Hawks, they know how to develop players, and have been doing a great job for about a decade now in that sphere.

Also look at our (now) $30M Moorabbin development, which is terrific. Hawks are planning a $100M HQ and have had Waverley for so long it prob is due for a Reno!

F - the hawks, they lost the best player in the comp, but not through choice. They will be a middling side as Roughhead, Burgoyne, Frawley, McEvoy & co retire… and we'll have the players that they chose not to draft > Acres, Dunstan, Clark, Coffield.

"david-lee" wanted to get rid of Roo in 2007… what do you reckon we would have got for him in 2016? - SFA. It's not like we needed more room in the cap and Roo was playing for half his salary anyway last year.

We pushed enough club champs out the door for little gain, so I'm glad I didn't have to watch Riewoldt & Montagna running around in a collingwood jumper for zero return.

We laud clubs like Hawthorn for taking massive risks, then bemoan our club when we do the same thing - McEvoy, Stanley, Goddard, Dal Santo, Freeman… can't have it both ways.

[Jacks Back]

C'mon now. Comparing the Hawks trading Mitchell and Lewsi with us trading Roo?
They practically gave them away - Lewis, Mitchell, picks 54, 57, 68, and 72, in exchange for picks 48, 52, 66, 70, 88.
They did it to release salary cap pressure to pay T.Mitchell and O'Meara.
We had no reason to do so. They also kept senior players like Hodge and Burgoyne on. If we'd traded out (for peanuts) Roo and Joey we would have been left as we are now. That's one less year of development for youngsters under two outstanding mentors wings.

Now come on, there's no place for common sense here.

[David-Lee]

Great post David-Lee.

You really hit a raw nerve re Roo. It takes masses of guts to do what the Hawks continually do re list management.

Key difference is when you look at the Box Hill Hawks, they know how to develop players, and have been doing a great job for about a decade now in that sphere.

Also look at our (now) $30M Moorabbin development, which is terrific. Hawks are planning a $100M HQ and have had Waverley for so long it prob is due for a Reno!

F - the hawks, they lost the best player in the comp, but not through choice. They will be a middling side as Roughhead, Burgoyne, Frawley, McEvoy & co retire… and we'll have the players that they chose not to draft > Acres, Dunstan, Clark, Coffield.

"david-lee" wanted to get rid of Roo in 2007… what do you reckon we would have got for him in 2016? - SFA. It's not like we needed more room in the cap and Roo was playing for half his salary anyway last year.

We pushed enough club champs out the door for little gain, so I'm glad I didn't have to watch Riewoldt & Montagna running around in a collingwood jumper for zero return.

We laud clubs like Hawthorn for taking massive risks, then bemoan our club when we do the same thing - McEvoy, Stanley, Goddard, Dal Santo, Freeman… can't have it both ways.

You need a spot on the board! Always look at trading for picks instead of talent!
We had 2 first round picks plus what the team called a war chest and we could have come away with a A grade midfielder but nope...get some young guys that need 6-8 years ( by the ops standard) to even hit their stride!

The issue I have with Roo was he just came off the league leading mark's in a season and if we had offered a trade + for Kelly at that point with GWS it just may have come off...they wanted a forward who could help sculpt their front line as a mentor...it obviously had no effect on our front line so why not trade?

You think we won the McEvoy trade? The most athletic and consistent ruck in the league for Savage and Dunstan?
If we had a quality ruck over the past few years we'd be at least 1-3 wins ahead every season.

Maybe Dunstan will eventually get consistent but how is he worth a top level Ruck?
Just my thoughts based on factual performance which is what matters.

[St Chris]

C'mon now. Comparing the Hawks trading Mitchell and Lewsi with us trading Roo?
They practically gave them away - Lewis, Mitchell, picks 54, 57, 68, and 72, in exchange for picks 48, 52, 66, 70, 88.
They did it to release salary cap pressure to pay T.Mitchell and O'Meara.
We had no reason to do so. They also kept senior players like Hodge and Burgoyne on. If we'd traded out (for peanuts) Roo and Joey we would have been left as we are now. That's one less year of development for youngsters under two outstanding mentors wings.

Agree. We would have done the exact same thing with Roo if he’d decided to play on and accepted Richmond’s 1-year deal. Our heroes were happy enough to ride off into the sunset, Hodge and Mitchell decided to pad their superannuation a bit, and in Hodge’s case, diminish their excellent careers.

[dragit]

The issue I have with Roo was he just came off the league leading mark's in a season and if we had offered a trade + for Kelly at that point with GWS it just may have come off..

Making stuff up ≠ reality.

[David-Lee]

The issue I have with Roo was he just came off the league leading mark's in a season and if we had offered a trade + for Kelly at that point with GWS it just may have come off..

Making stuff up ≠ reality.

What's fantasy? Roo's stats from 2016 or that GWS was openly seeking a forward star in their twilight to stiffen the front line and act as a mentor? You do actually follow the game known as AFL right?

So GWS ended up with Steve Johnson from Geelong - exactly where Roo could have been. Had we offered Roo plus picks we may well have had our midfielder of the future.

Sorry if this confuses you.

[parkeysainter]

Wow. My own thread.

Actually. I don't even think we will win today and probably won't even make the finals at this point although its still very mathematically possible. Stranger things have happened.

I don't think the club, staff, coaches and players are flawless at all. We have been ordinary as a side this year so far, but I reckon the wheel will turn soon.

If they fix the below on field then we will jag alot more 4 pointers:
-general field kicking
-inside 50's conversion
-goal kicking

The effort is there. The sides execution and confidence is just s*** at the moment in most areas.

The club itself off field is doing quite well I believe. On field success ALWAYS make the off field stuff look a whole lot better too so I can understand where the noise is coming from with supporters. They look for people to blame. Same with any pro sporting club.

[David-Lee]

Wow. My own thread.

Actually. I don't even think we will win today and probably won't even make the finals at this point although its still very mathematically possible. Stranger things have happened.

I don't think the club, staff, coaches and players are flawless at all. We have been ordinary as a side this year so far, but I reckon the wheel will turn soon.

If they fix the below on field then we will jag alot more 4 pointers:
-general field kicking
-inside 50's conversion
-goal kicking

The effort is there. The sides execution and confidence is just s*** at the moment in most areas.

The club itself off field is doing quite well I believe. On field success ALWAYS make the off field stuff look a whole lot better too so I can understand where the noise is coming from with supporters. They look for people to blame. Same with any pro sporting club.

For me it's about the club and others consistently acting as if we are there, ready to pounce on s flag with a tweak of this and that.
A 5 season rebuild without a forward capable of kicking 50 goals in year, no mid with the silk or speed to drag a game into the win column and defense that relies essentially on 1 guy that we trade a top pick for that is pretty good unless you look at the stats where he actually compares to other key defenders in the average to good range...did I mention no established ruck?
But we will be fine, it will all come together.

All this time and it really seems wasted. Not because of 2018, because of the lack of developed young players and the horrific skill level. But NO ONE has to be accountable, exactly the opposite occurs Parkey, coaches and staff are rewarded.

I actually do believe we have young players that could take us far but sadly they're 3 years behind because they're Saints.

[dragit]

The issue I have with Roo was he just came off the league leading mark's in a season and if we had offered a trade + for Kelly at that point with GWS it just may have come off..

Making stuff up ≠ reality.

What's fantasy? Roo's stats from 2016 or that GWS was openly seeking a forward star in their twilight to stiffen the front line and act as a mentor? You do actually follow the game known as AFL right?

So GWS ended up with Steve Johnson from Geelong - exactly where Roo could have been. Had we offered Roo plus picks we may well have had our midfielder of the future.

Sorry if this confuses you.

Yeah maybe we could have also sent up Montagna and Gilbert and got Cameron and Shiel too.

Pure fantasy.

[David-Lee]

The issue I have with Roo was he just came off the league leading mark's in a season and if we had offered a trade + for Kelly at that point with GWS it just may have come off..

Making stuff up ≠ reality.

What's fantasy? Roo's stats from 2016 or that GWS was openly seeking a forward star in their twilight to stiffen the front line and act as a mentor? You do actually follow the game known as AFL right?

So GWS ended up with Steve Johnson from Geelong - exactly where Roo could have been. Had we offered Roo plus picks we may well have had our midfielder of the future.

Sorry if this confuses you.

Yeah maybe we could have also sent up Montagna and Gilbert and got Cameron and Shiel too.

Pure fantasy.

You're spot on...pure fantasy with our current board. They couldn't trade Pokemon cards let alone players....why even try?
We can't win. No one wants our players. We have nothing to offer. We cant ever get ahead. Poor us...we just arent clever enough to make a decent trade. Oh well.

[David-Lee]

Regardless of what I say I love the Saints and I'm sure Parkey does as well. We will die side by side Saints till the end. It's just right now I'm a negative c#nt and he's a delusional one... lol. I needed one last imbilcilic jab.

[SydneySainter]

If Parkey is right then anyone on St Kilda’s payroll must be a genius and void of any criticism.

[congorozides]

Parkey is horribly wrong and has been all year.
For starters GWS arent that good.

Our % us now under 70 so we arent just bad we are terrible. We are getting thrashed regularly. This has been the pattern since Rd 17 2017.

Melbourne arent a good side and wont make the 8 yet they destroyed us.