Frees for and against saints

[BackFromUSA]

I went off my head at that decision. Haven’t seen the replay yet.

After Jack bounced the ball and lost control of it he then knock it away and technically was no longer in possession.

If the tackle started after he knocked it away then it is holding the man.

If the tackle started before he knocked it away then the rules dictate that being technically in possession he must then dispose of the ball legally. Punching a loose ball out of a pack would be legal if he was on the ground being tackled. Play on is the correct call.

The actual rules have been bastardised by the umpiring department by interpretation.

All day when tackled GWS just let go of the ball.

This suits the AFL instruction to keep the play moving (not wanting packs to form) but is contrary to the rules which clearly state that when tackled the player must dispose of it legally by hand or foot. Simply dropping the ball is not legal!

The other free that is never paid anymore and they had been reminded a few years ago of the in the back rule - is that when a player on the ground with the ball has an opposition player on top of his back driving him into the ground so the ball can not escape - the umpires should pay in the back. This simply isn’t being paid anymore and it is the root cause of most ground ball packs being caused.

[portosaint]

Interesting to hear Clarko's opinion on the umpiring against the Giants. He thinks we should have been rewarded for incorrect disposal 20 - 30m from goal 4 or 5 times. I wonder if he has a different sort of motive for this??

Congestion to blame for head clashes: Clarko - http://m.afl.com.au/news/2018-04-22/con ... hes-clarko

[kalsaint]

Lions. 20 to 26 Win

Roos. 16 to 23 Loss

Crows. 17 to 21 Loss

Cats. 23 to 25 Loss

GWS. 18 TO 20 Draw

Total. 94 to 115

Yes, Saints are the only side in the league that has not beaten the league free kick average for the 6 years of 2011-2016. (I am yet to include 2017 stats to my records).

I will say that WCE and Geelong have had a merry time with umpires over 12 years now. That's a fact. Many other team free stats might surprise you. I have 21 years of data on this.

The loss / win comparison with frees above is just not valid over the longer term. As others have said we have given a lot of frees away as youngsters without bigger bodies struggle to contain their opponents and become ill disciplined. This fact is disappointing but on regular occasions umpires have had a direct impact on the game. This is from frees given in front of goal.

[saynta]

I am just hoping that giving publicity to the fact that we are regularly screwed by the umpires will lead to something being done about it.

The hawks coach is spot on re his comments that GWS players should have been pinged 4 or 5 times for just dropping the ball when tackled. I was livid.


"Clarkson attended the draw between St Kilda – the Hawks' next opponent – and Greater Western Sydney on Saturday and was frustrated to see the umpires fail to reward several tackles.

"(There were) five opportunities within 20 or 30m from goal, where Giants players had the ball and, in my view, incorrect disposal from good tackling pressure, but it's not paid," he said.

"Just pay the free kicks. In each of those cases, they become five ball-ups.

"Now Saints don't mind, really – they've got a ball-up at least in their front end and can set up their defence behind it.

"But, by and large, that should be a free kick to them and goal and actually educating players that they have to dispose of the ball correctly."

[degruch]

I went off my head at that decision. Haven’t seen the replay yet.

After Jack bounced the ball and lost control of it he then knock it away and technically was no longer in possession.

If the tackle started after he knocked it away then it is holding the man.

If the tackle started before he knocked it away then the rules dictate that being technically in possession he must then dispose of the ball legally. Punching a loose ball out of a pack would be legal if he was on the ground being tackled. Play on is the correct call.

The actual rules have been bastardised by the umpiring department by interpretation.

All day when tackled GWS just let go of the ball.

This suits the AFL instruction to keep the play moving (not wanting packs to form) but is contrary to the rules which clearly state that when tackled the player must dispose of it legally by hand or foot. Simply dropping the ball is not legal!

The other free that is never paid anymore and they had been reminded a few years ago of the in the back rule - is that when a player on the ground with the ball has an opposition player on top of his back driving him into the ground so the ball can not escape - the umpires should pay in the back. This simply isn’t being paid anymore and it is the root cause of most ground ball packs being caused.

I'm not sure whether the Carlisle non-free, the Gilbert push call back, Long being crunched 20m out of goal whilst not in possession, two GWS players knocking themselves over for a free, or the Steven holding made me go off more...but one that seems to have not been brought up...was it Davis, or Simpson, who punched the ball over the line UNCONTESTED 20m from our goal in the last? Was that not the very definition of deliberate? Under no pressure at all, he was clearing hoping to fist it through for a point, but stuffed it. There's another goal to us.

[barneyboyz]

Lions. 20 to 26 Win

Roos. 16 to 23 Loss

Crows. 17 to 21 Loss

Cats. 23 to 25 Loss

GWS. 18 TO 20 Draw

Total. 94 to 115

Bump.

Be interesting to see those stats as done at 3/4 time, prior to the even-up starts. I would love those stats

[asiu]

is there season by season totals ?

be interesting to see the stats during those seasons when we were winning a few regularly

first to the pill and all that jazz

[The_Dud]

Anyone watch the North v Hawks game?

[saynta]

Anyone watch the North v Hawks game?

Yep. Roos too good . Killed the hawks in the first half.

[Sainter_Dad]

...but one that seems to have not been brought up...was it Davis, or Simpson, who punched the ball over the line UNCONTESTED 20m from our goal in the last? Was that not the very definition of deliberate? Under no pressure at all, he was clearing hoping to fist it through for a point, but stuffed it. There's another goal to us.

Phil Davis - 10 metres clear of anyone - must have known he was clear.

Just watching the replay and reading this when it happened.

I cannot guarantee a goal from a kick 35 out 45 degrees - but surely it would have resulted in a point!!!!

Mind you - WTF was the kick doing going to a GWS player 10 metres clear of any of our players in the forward 50.

Would be interested in the post match review of the umpiring - esp seeing Clarko was so critical as a neutral observer.

[SemperFidelis]

I watched the North Hawks game, or some of it.

I heard the umpire pay a free kick for "illegal disposal" after a tackle, when the player tackled dropped the ball.

I nearly fell off my chair. I just assumed they'd binned that rule because if it was still on the statutes, WTF was going on on Saturday afternoon?????

I was doing my `nana (as were those around me) that the Giants could just repeatedly drop the ball in a tackle and escape unscathed.

Happy to see Clarko brought it up.

[asiu]

...but one that seems to have not been brought up...was it Davis, or Simpson, who punched the ball over the line UNCONTESTED 20m from our goal in the last? Was that not the very definition of deliberate? Under no pressure at all, he was clearing hoping to fist it through for a point, but stuffed it. There's another goal to us.

did it go over the boundary line on the full ?

if it bounces before hand , its all legal as i understand it

[The_Dud]

Anyone watch the North v Hawks game?

Yep. Roos too good . Killed the hawks in the first half.

And what did you think of the umpiring?

[Sainter_Dad]

...but one that seems to have not been brought up...was it Davis, or Simpson, who punched the ball over the line UNCONTESTED 20m from our goal in the last? Was that not the very definition of deliberate? Under no pressure at all, he was clearing hoping to fist it through for a point, but stuffed it. There's another goal to us.

did it go over the boundary line on the full ?

if it bounces before hand , its all legal as i understand it

Bounced .... about 15 rows into the crowd!

[degruch]

...but one that seems to have not been brought up...was it Davis, or Simpson, who punched the ball over the line UNCONTESTED 20m from our goal in the last? Was that not the very definition of deliberate? Under no pressure at all, he was clearing hoping to fist it through for a point, but stuffed it. There's another goal to us.

Phil Davis - 10 metres clear of anyone - must have known he was clear.

Just watching the replay and reading this when it happened.

I cannot guarantee a goal from a kick 35 out 45 degrees - but surely it would have resulted in a point!!!!

Mind you - WTF was the kick doing going to a GWS player 10 metres clear of any of our players in the forward 50.

Would be interested in the post match review of the umpiring - esp seeing Clarko was so critical as a neutral observer.

I thought it was a tired attempt at kicking over the top for a goal, from memory, but you've seen it more recently than me. No-one can guarantee a goal from dead in front 10 meters out with us, but ordinarily it would be a simple conversion...but not even a hint of a whistle from the ump for a text book infringement right in front of goal!

[saynta]

Lions. 20 to 26 Win

Roos. 16 to 23 Loss

Crows. 17 to 21 Loss

Cats. 23 to 25 Loss

GWS. 18 TO 20 Draw

Hawks. 14 to 18 Loss

Total. 108 to 133

Bump.

Says it all really. Not that we don't play like crap mind you.

[Moods]

Lions. 20 to 26 Win

Roos. 16 to 23 Loss

Crows. 17 to 21 Loss

Cats. 23 to 25 Loss

GWS. 18 TO 20 Draw

Hawks. 14 to 18 Loss

Total. 108 to 133

Bump.

Says it all really. Not that we don't play like crap mind you.

What exactly is it saying? Humour me

[saynta]

Lions. 20 to 26 Win

Roos. 16 to 23 Loss

Crows. 17 to 21 Loss

Cats. 23 to 25 Loss

GWS. 18 TO 20 Draw

Hawks. 14 to 18 Loss

Total. 108 to 133

Bump.

Says it all really. Not that we don't play like crap mind you.

What exactly is it saying? Humour me

Ah, no.

[Moods]

Lions. 20 to 26 Win

Roos. 16 to 23 Loss

Crows. 17 to 21 Loss

Cats. 23 to 25 Loss

GWS. 18 TO 20 Draw

Hawks. 14 to 18 Loss

Total. 108 to 133

Bump.

Says it all really. Not that we don't play like crap mind you.

What exactly is it saying? Humour me

Ah, no.

Ok. I'll have a crack at it then. It's a stat trotted out by those with a chip on their shoulder and who are completely paranoid that believe that the big bad AFL are out to get us. Makes us feel slightly better about our hopelessness than having to admit that our patheticness is completely our doing? Close?

[Joffa Burns]

is there season by season totals ?

be interesting to see the stats during those seasons when we were winning a few regularly

first to the pill and all that jazz

In 2009 we received a massive 13.5% more free kicks for the season than our opposition.
Amazing what being first to the ball does for your ratio.

Given the umps cheat against us now according to the stooger and the illiterate one, surely it must be agreed they cheated for us in 2009.

How do we get them to return to cheating in our favor?

[Joffa Burns]

Lions. 20 to 26 Win

Roos. 16 to 23 Loss

Crows. 17 to 21 Loss

Cats. 23 to 25 Loss

GWS. 18 TO 20 Draw

Hawks. 14 to 18 Loss

Total. 108 to 133

Bump.

Says it all really. Not that we don't play like crap mind you.

What exactly is it saying? Humour me

Ah, no.

Ok. I'll have a crack at it then. It's a stat trotted out by those with a chip on their shoulder and who are completely paranoid that believe that the big bad AFL are out to get us. Makes us feel slightly better about our hopelessness than having to admit that our patheticness is completely our doing? Close?

Great effort Moods and very close.
If you had closed your assessment with a statement acknowledging those paranoid, delusional forumites who perpetuate this mentality actually appear to believe their own mantra.

Reminiscent of the mid west USA rednecks who seem to genuinely believe they have been abducted and dang probed by aliens

[Joffa Burns]

...but one that seems to have not been brought up...was it Davis, or Simpson, who punched the ball over the line UNCONTESTED 20m from our goal in the last? Was that not the very definition of deliberate? Under no pressure at all, he was clearing hoping to fist it through for a point, but stuffed it. There's another goal to us.

did it go over the boundary line on the full ?

if it bounces before hand , its all legal as i understand it

Bounced .... about 15 rows into the crowd!

Two questions:

1. When was the last time you saw a spoil or punch from a kick contested or uncontested penalized as a deliberate out of bounds? I struggle to recall a single incident. Ruck contests are certainly treated as deliberate.

2. How was the Davis effort markedly different to that of Brown (while a little more contested) who did a very similar act in the last 1/4?

[CURLY]

Two umpires blow there whistle one a free to Hawthorn one to us. Hawks take the kick. Coffield in full view of the umps pushed into the ground with two hands in the back play on in our goal square. Long dives for a mark has the ball gets taken front on umpire pays below the knees. All bulls***.

[saynta]

Lions. 20 to 26 Win

Roos. 16 to 23 Loss

Crows. 17 to 21 Loss

Cats. 23 to 25 Loss

GWS. 18 TO 20 Draw

Hawks. 14 to 18 Loss

Total. 108 to 133

Bump.

Says it all really. Not that we don't play like crap mind you.

What exactly is it saying? Humour me

Ah, no.

Ok. I'll have a crack at it then. It's a stat trotted out by those with a chip on their shoulder and who are completely paranoid that believe that the big bad AFL are out to get us. Makes us feel slightly better about our hopelessness than having to admit that our patheticness is completely our doing? Close?

Better to have a chip on my shoulder than my head up my arse like you and your bogan low brow mate.

[Freebird]

Lions. 20 to 26 Win

Roos. 16 to 23 Loss

Crows. 17 to 21 Loss

Cats. 23 to 25 Loss

GWS. 18 TO 20 Draw

Hawks. 14 to 18 Loss

Total. 108 to 133

Bump.

Says it all really. Not that we don't play like crap mind you.

What exactly is it saying? Humour me

Ah, no.

Ok. I'll have a crack at it then. It's a stat trotted out by those with a chip on their shoulder and who are completely paranoid that believe that the big bad AFL are out to get us. Makes us feel slightly better about our hopelessness than having to admit that our patheticness is completely our doing? Close?

Better to have a chip on my shoulder than my head up my arse like you and your bogan low brow mate.

2009 Statistics Sorted by Frees For 2009 Team Statistics Ladder



2009 Statistics Sorted by Frees For 2009 Team Statistics Ladder


Rk Team Gm K
HB
D
M
G
GA
I50
BH
T
HO
FF
FA
AF
SC

1 Hawks
22 4386 3822 8208 2121 306 187 1045 284 1607 916 511 448 35746 37762
2 Cats
25 4654 4136 8790 2210 296 217 1138 236 1639 850 472 514 37178 37419
3 Crows
24 4611 4493 9104 2377 284 203 1028 238 1554 788 451 397 38117 38393
4 Swans
22 4279 2962 7241 1998 294 184 1091 263 1436 836 429 377 32628 36087
5 Saints
25 4556 4422 8978 2222 232 153 1016 204 1578 943 424 480 36967 37492
6 Magpies
25 5040 4647 9687 2564 295 195 1208 286 1296 1017 416 359 39661 40789
7 Eagles
22 4532 4143 8675 2265 297 191 1101 247 1499 746 403 421 36559 38180
8 Bulldogs
25 4898 4696 9594 2548 315 234 1210 262 1549 738 401 422 39894 39938
9 Dockers
22 4418 4221 8639 2126 333 227 1150 261 1369 607 396 366 35676 38637
10 Lions
24 4874 4206 9080 2462 304 223 1219 277 1376 952 396 390 38162 40351
11 Blues
23 4386 3917 8303 2097 316 210 1141 270 1283 840 393 431 34467 36972
12 Bombers
23 4492 3831 8323 2289 336 248 1172 277 1415 927 393 384 36095 38121
13 Tigers
22 4354 3726 8080 2206 348 237 1179 300 1450 859 393 376 35393 37581
14 Power
22 4349 4114 8463 2127 332 233 1129 252 1300 673 384 422 34850 37691
15 Kangaroos
22 4387 3824 8211 2143 293 209 1182 257 1399 847 382 426 34738 36812
16 Demons
22 4619 4363 8982 2284 332 245 1209


2009 Saints
frees for 424
frees against 480