HELP - A Saints history
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HELP - A Saints history
Hi guys,
Was discussing a history of the Saints with some friends today and it got the juices flowing.
Looking back on a few incidents that are a bit blurred for me, I was hoping we could discuss them here.
- Why did we move away from Moorabbin?
- Who was the president during the Stevie Baker/Stevie J incident and why didn't they fight the 9 game suspension. Did an underdone Baker cost us the flag in 09?
- From memory the AFL talked about Baker going after Johnsons broken hand… But didn't Shane Parker hit Gehrigs broken hand during a game?
- Why was GT sacked after taking us to Prelims in 04, 05 and finals again in 06 and seemingly having the support of the whole playing group?
- Why did the players hate Watters so much?
- Why did we end up hiring Richo after we overlooked him previously?
The Baker one still makes me mad. Don't forget the Jeff Farmer incident either!
Was discussing a history of the Saints with some friends today and it got the juices flowing.
Looking back on a few incidents that are a bit blurred for me, I was hoping we could discuss them here.
- Why did we move away from Moorabbin?
- Who was the president during the Stevie Baker/Stevie J incident and why didn't they fight the 9 game suspension. Did an underdone Baker cost us the flag in 09?
- From memory the AFL talked about Baker going after Johnsons broken hand… But didn't Shane Parker hit Gehrigs broken hand during a game?
- Why was GT sacked after taking us to Prelims in 04, 05 and finals again in 06 and seemingly having the support of the whole playing group?
- Why did the players hate Watters so much?
- Why did we end up hiring Richo after we overlooked him previously?
The Baker one still makes me mad. Don't forget the Jeff Farmer incident either!
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Re: HELP - A Saints history
I wish I could help you with the AR one, TP. Overlooked him three times previously, but it may have been desperation as Watterrs sacking left few available candidates. Looks as though oir earlier judgements of AR were correct. Now we've extended him and we're stuck with him for another three years. Good grief! That should see us nicely through to becoming the Gold Coast or Tassie Saints.
"Is this the right room for an argument?"
"I told you once."
"No, you didn't."
"Yes, I did."
"Listen, an argument isn't just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says, it's a series of statements designed to support a particular conclusion."
"No, it isn't."
"Oh, I've had enough of this."
"No you haven't"
"Oh shut up."
"I told you once."
"No, you didn't."
"Yes, I did."
"Listen, an argument isn't just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says, it's a series of statements designed to support a particular conclusion."
"No, it isn't."
"Oh, I've had enough of this."
"No you haven't"
"Oh shut up."
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Re: HELP - A Saints history
Drake Huggins wrote:I wish I could help you with the AR one, TP. Overlooked him three times previously, but it may have been desperation as Watterrs sacking left few available candidates. Looks as though oir earlier judgements of AR were correct. Now we've extended him and we're stuck with him for another three years. Good grief! That should see us nicely through to becoming the Gold Coast or Tassie Saints.
Clueless, again, no surprise really!!!!!
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Re: HELP - A Saints history
I imagine Richo would have previously applied for the senior coaching role either at the end of Lyons and/or Watters' tenure. At the end of 2011 he'd had only 3 years experience as an assistant coach, one in a development role, so nice try but no cigar. Not much more by the time Watters was given his marching orders. Prior to us recruiting him he'd had a successful stint at Port Adelaide, including in a senior coaching role at least once. The main candidate other than Richardson was Chocko.
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Re: HELP - A Saints history
Steven Baker ran through the middle one day and cleaned-up a tigers player (can't think of who now?). Ironically this (probably) had last happened to one Robert Harvey; after that day Steven couldn't fart without getting booked.
The Baker / Johnson game was a real beauty, and I reckon Johnno won that day. There was no need for any penalty, just two hard blokes going at it.
I don't condone everything that Steven Baker did on a football field, but we sure could use him now
Don't care much about the rest, other than GT should have had 2 - 3 premierships as a coach. Pity the AFL was so hell bent on getting Sydney a flag
The Baker / Johnson game was a real beauty, and I reckon Johnno won that day. There was no need for any penalty, just two hard blokes going at it.
I don't condone everything that Steven Baker did on a football field, but we sure could use him now
Don't care much about the rest, other than GT should have had 2 - 3 premierships as a coach. Pity the AFL was so hell bent on getting Sydney a flag
St. Kilda Football Club. Going strong, since 1960
- skeptic
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Re: HELP - A Saints history
As far as GT goes the word is that Butters and co finally lost faith in his ability during the 05 pre-lim and they felt that the game was changing and that GT wasn’t capable of changing with it.
12 months later we were trending downwards, GT and Butters had a personal/professional fallout that had reached unimaginable lows and was essentially untenable... and was more or less the focus of the news every week.
Finally, the AFL disliked GT so much a feeling was brewing that it was causing them to work against us
12 months later we were trending downwards, GT and Butters had a personal/professional fallout that had reached unimaginable lows and was essentially untenable... and was more or less the focus of the news every week.
Finally, the AFL disliked GT so much a feeling was brewing that it was causing them to work against us
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Re: HELP - A Saints history
Hey Prez - Im not sure how you go about it - but try finding SB's interview with Mike "On the Couch"
it reminded me of the saying - enough rope - didnt really do himself any favours
And yeah RL should not have selected him for the final but SB wasnt very truthful about the severity of the injury to his foot
Then again he was one of RL's automatic selections so he might have played him in half leg cast
it reminded me of the saying - enough rope - didnt really do himself any favours
And yeah RL should not have selected him for the final but SB wasnt very truthful about the severity of the injury to his foot
Then again he was one of RL's automatic selections so he might have played him in half leg cast
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Re: HELP - A Saints history
skeptic wrote:As far as GT goes the word is that Butters and co finally lost faith in his ability during the 05 pre-lim and they felt that the game was changing and that GT wasn’t capable of changing with it.
12 months later we were trending downwards, GT and Butters had a personal/professional fallout that had reached unimaginable lows and was essentially untenable... and was more or less the focus of the news every week.
Finally, the AFL disliked GT so much a feeling was brewing that it was causing them to work against us
It’s funny, I always remember GT for being ahead of the game. He was one of the first coaches to use an athletic player (Jason Blake) as the back up ruckman so he didn’t need to carry two pure ruckman.
He also tried to play the fast, attacking football. The game plan was basically “we’re young, we’re fit and we’re skilled, do what you want, but good luck outscoring us”
Look forward a few years and that’s the same gameplay Geelong used.
Always had the feeling that GT just really loved the club but got shown the door and was pretty dirty on the club after that.
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Re: HELP - A Saints history
EDIT: I took this to mean as in playing....as opposed to for training only.The_President wrote:
- Why did we move away from Moorabbin?
Well it wasn't just to get to other side of the road;)
The AFL forced us. They wanted all Melbourne based clubs to play at less grounds.
And then later when settled at Artic Park they forced us to Docklands upon a really shitty deal. They wanted all Melbourne based clubs to play at even less grounds, as in two!
Meanwhile the Cats sat back and counted the $millions continually thrown at them for ground improvements etc..
Last edited by saintsRrising on Fri 09 Mar 2018 6:29pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HELP - A Saints history
My recollection about the move from Moorabbin was there was a major spat between the club and Kingston Council about the conditions for the (then) proposed redevelopment for Moorabbin, particularly the Council wanting a decrease of something like 7 pokie machines. One of the Councilors in particalar (name forgotten) was 'anti-StKilda'. The Club in the end felt it was all too hard and a better option to got to Seaford...
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Re: HELP - A Saints history
Tend to agree with that summation too...problem with a fast, attacking game plan is you need to be fit and injury free, either our conditioning at the time was sub-par, or we were extremely unlucky. Hammill, Penny, Ball, Attard, Cripps, Kosi, the list went on. We would have done much better in 2006 without half the team laid up as well IMO. We were absolutely oozing with individual talent back then.The_President wrote:skeptic wrote:As far as GT goes the word is that Butters and co finally lost faith in his ability during the 05 pre-lim and they felt that the game was changing and that GT wasn’t capable of changing with it.
12 months later we were trending downwards, GT and Butters had a personal/professional fallout that had reached unimaginable lows and was essentially untenable... and was more or less the focus of the news every week.
Finally, the AFL disliked GT so much a feeling was brewing that it was causing them to work against us
It’s funny, I always remember GT for being ahead of the game. He was one of the first coaches to use an athletic player (Jason Blake) as the back up ruckman so he didn’t need to carry two pure ruckman.
He also tried to play the fast, attacking football. The game plan was basically “we’re young, we’re fit and we’re skilled, do what you want, but good luck outscoring us”
Look forward a few years and that’s the same gameplay Geelong used.
Always had the feeling that GT just really loved the club but got shown the door and was pretty dirty on the club after that.
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Re: HELP - A Saints history
This rings true. I believe the consensus at the time with reference to that particular councillor was that if it wasn’t the police machines, it would have been something else.8bloggs wrote:My recollection about the move from Moorabbin was there was a major spat between the club and Kingston Council about the conditions for the (then) proposed redevelopment for Moorabbin, particularly the Council wanting a decrease of something like 7 pokie machines. One of the Councilors in particalar (name forgotten) was 'anti-StKilda'. The Club in the end felt it was all too hard and a better option to got to Seaford...
It’s a shame because that proposal at time would have been really good for all parties involved... certainly had more aesthetic pleasure then the current one.
Fancy calling the old grass car park a nature reserve!!! Could have been made into a wetlands
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Re: HELP - A Saints history
8bloggs wrote:My recollection about the move from Moorabbin was there was a major spat between the club and Kingston Council about the conditions for the (then) proposed redevelopment for Moorabbin, particularly the Council wanting a decrease of something like 7 pokie machines. One of the Councillors in particular (name forgotten) was 'anti-StKilda'. The Club in the end felt it was all too hard and a better option to got to Seaford...
My post above was in reference to moving from Moorabbin in terms of playing.
In terms of as a Training base then yes.
Though technically the club never fully left Moorabbin as we had a lease meaning that we could stay. We just could not get the required planning permission through the Council for the required improvements and the various State Governments were too gutless to overrule them.
I would not call it a spat so much as several Councillors who were bitterly opposed to the saints full stop. One of they opponents was not a Councillor still when we left but he repeatedly live near the ground and just hated us and all things football. This despite the new facility having many new shared facilities that the local community could also use.
Classic case of politicians putting self before community.
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Re: HELP - A Saints history
It was his third application that caused the problem. He was asked to present yet again, because they wanted Chocco, but had concerns about some aspects of his behaviour and that he'd be a loose cannon. AR was not impressed and was not made to present again. It was close, but he got the job. So in effect it was three times he was rejected. Threatening to walk away worked. Enough concerns about Chocco helped the milky bar kid get his job. Excuse the pathetic chocolate puns.degruch wrote:I imagine Richo would have previously applied for the senior coaching role either at the end of Lyons and/or Watters' tenure. At the end of 2011 he'd had only 3 years experience as an assistant coach, one in a development role, so nice try but no cigar. Not much more by the time Watters was given his marching orders. Prior to us recruiting him he'd had a successful stint at Port Adelaide, including in a senior coaching role at least once. The main candidate other than Richardson was Chocko.
"Is this the right room for an argument?"
"I told you once."
"No, you didn't."
"Yes, I did."
"Listen, an argument isn't just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says, it's a series of statements designed to support a particular conclusion."
"No, it isn't."
"Oh, I've had enough of this."
"No you haven't"
"Oh shut up."
"I told you once."
"No, you didn't."
"Yes, I did."
"Listen, an argument isn't just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says, it's a series of statements designed to support a particular conclusion."
"No, it isn't."
"Oh, I've had enough of this."
"No you haven't"
"Oh shut up."
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Re: HELP - A Saints history
Another superb contribution. Tell me, do you ever contribute anything worthwhile to this forum, or is your ability limited to hitting the exclamation mark key, repeatedly? Impressive!!!!!!!!!stonecold wrote:Drake Huggins wrote:I wish I could help you with the AR one, TP. Overlooked him three times previously, but it may have been desperation as Watterrs sacking left few available candidates. Looks as though oir earlier judgements of AR were correct. Now we've extended him and we're stuck with him for another three years. Good grief! That should see us nicely through to becoming the Gold Coast or Tassie Saints.
Clueless, again, no surprise really!!!!!
"Is this the right room for an argument?"
"I told you once."
"No, you didn't."
"Yes, I did."
"Listen, an argument isn't just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says, it's a series of statements designed to support a particular conclusion."
"No, it isn't."
"Oh, I've had enough of this."
"No you haven't"
"Oh shut up."
"I told you once."
"No, you didn't."
"Yes, I did."
"Listen, an argument isn't just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says, it's a series of statements designed to support a particular conclusion."
"No, it isn't."
"Oh, I've had enough of this."
"No you haven't"
"Oh shut up."
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Re: HELP - A Saints history
Well, that put him best behind Choco, so sounds like he was the best choice we had...you can't wait a year for someone better to come along! Although, I'm fairly sure installing Beveridge as coaching director was a plan B (succession, post rebuild) that was scuttled by the Bulldogs. In regards to Williams, I had a mate who worked with him at Port (and 2017 at Richmond), from what I was told of his attitude and practices, after the Watters disaster he was the last person we needed. No doubt influenced our decision, as you say.Drake Huggins wrote:It was his third application that caused the problem. He was asked to present yet again, because they wanted Chocco, but had concerns about some aspects of his behaviour and that he'd be a loose cannon. AR was not impressed and was not made to present again. It was close, but he got the job. So in effect it was three times he was rejected. Threatening to walk away worked. Enough concerns about Chocco helped the milky bar kid get his job. Excuse the pathetic chocolate puns.degruch wrote:I imagine Richo would have previously applied for the senior coaching role either at the end of Lyons and/or Watters' tenure. At the end of 2011 he'd had only 3 years experience as an assistant coach, one in a development role, so nice try but no cigar. Not much more by the time Watters was given his marching orders. Prior to us recruiting him he'd had a successful stint at Port Adelaide, including in a senior coaching role at least once. The main candidate other than Richardson was Chocko.
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Re: HELP - A Saints history
Move from Moorabbin, a disgrace. I suppose the AFL wanted it and tempted St Kilda. It came down to a vote of Members, although the Club wanted to move. I voted to stay at Moorabbin, I think that's the way most Members went, although some were conned by the Waverley vision. Trouble is that some Members had more votes than others! Some type of Sponsors? Perhaps someone may recall, were allowed many votes like thousands! My recollection is that it was those voters that got it over the line. A sad day.
In regard to GT'S sacking, I do recall Rod Butters getting a grilling On The Couch shortly after the sacking. It is no secret that our inept/negligent or under-resourced Training Services cost us badly in 2005 (probably cost us a Premiership) and derailed 2006. Butters said that Thomas had insisted on direct oversight of Training Services against Butters better wishes. Butters claimed that he yielded to GT but made it clear it was on his head. Butters claimed in this interview that was the reason for the sacking. Whether or not that was the reason, I think Butters was spot on about our shambolic Training Services of the time.
The Stevie Baker suspension was in 2010 wasn't it? Just disgraceful dickheadry by the AFL, a combination of incompetent ill concieved rules and spite.
The replacement of Ross Lyon wasn't a rejection of Richo, more the culmination of a spectacular run of stunning incompetence and idiocy from the then CEO. Richo and Hinkley were both far better candidates than Watters. Richo and Hinkley both gave realistic appraisals of our List and what was needed (a rebuild). The CEO (Nettlefold) knowing that he'd negligently buggered up negotiations with Lyon wanted desperately to fix it. So when Watters told them he still believed we were a Juggernaut and in the Premiership window, it was a case of telling Nettlefold what he wanted to hear despite the fiction of it.
I would suggest that the players didn't like Watters because he was a disastrous choice and not a good leader, for them at least.
In regard to GT'S sacking, I do recall Rod Butters getting a grilling On The Couch shortly after the sacking. It is no secret that our inept/negligent or under-resourced Training Services cost us badly in 2005 (probably cost us a Premiership) and derailed 2006. Butters said that Thomas had insisted on direct oversight of Training Services against Butters better wishes. Butters claimed that he yielded to GT but made it clear it was on his head. Butters claimed in this interview that was the reason for the sacking. Whether or not that was the reason, I think Butters was spot on about our shambolic Training Services of the time.
The Stevie Baker suspension was in 2010 wasn't it? Just disgraceful dickheadry by the AFL, a combination of incompetent ill concieved rules and spite.
The replacement of Ross Lyon wasn't a rejection of Richo, more the culmination of a spectacular run of stunning incompetence and idiocy from the then CEO. Richo and Hinkley were both far better candidates than Watters. Richo and Hinkley both gave realistic appraisals of our List and what was needed (a rebuild). The CEO (Nettlefold) knowing that he'd negligently buggered up negotiations with Lyon wanted desperately to fix it. So when Watters told them he still believed we were a Juggernaut and in the Premiership window, it was a case of telling Nettlefold what he wanted to hear despite the fiction of it.
I would suggest that the players didn't like Watters because he was a disastrous choice and not a good leader, for them at least.