So who are our elite players...
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- skeptic
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So who are our elite players...
There’s been a lot of talk over the last few seasons that the Saints have put together an impressive core but have struggled to recruit elite players / match winners... and that a lot of players that we hoped could become elite haven’t got up there yet.
With that in mind, I wanted to get people’s thoughts on what it is we actually have.
For mine, I think we actually have four, close to five even if they’re not entirely there yet.
I think most would agree that Jack Steven is there... he’s a damaging, fast, ball winning mid and whilst his disposal isn’t up to the standard of say the top few mids, if he gets more help now that he has regained full fitness, I reckon we’ll see him tear games up far more regularly.
Jack Billings is another that to me, is clearly and A-Grade premium mid with all the talent to burn. He actually almost played like an elite mid for most of last season minus the fact that something just happened to him when he had set shots for goal. But like we saw in the game vs Carlton, when he gets the confidence up and he’s on... he’s very near unstoppable.
23.36 he kicked in 2017... if that was say 41.18 we pbly would have got into September and maybe even won a final or two. Very confident he gets there.
Jake Carlisle is another that IMO plays his position to an elite level and has all the tricks... he’s not quite as dominant as other defenders but he’s strong in all areas of the ground and if we can get our defensive structure right so that it’s not completely dependent on him and he can use his offensive capabilities more often... he’s clearly a gun and I reckon he was a steal at the price we got him for.
My final pick... as controversial as it may be, is Jade Gresham. Yes he’s not elite yet but if there’s ever a player that has demonstrated everything you. Plus want from a third year players it’s the Gresh... he seems to either do amazing things, or fail after almost doing amazing things.
30.30 last season... averaging 14 disposals... imagine if he can get his hands on the pill a few more times a game and fix up that goal kicking... could be 40.20 whilst getting 2-3 assists.
Next tier down you have Ross, Roberton, Membrey and Sinclair that many will argue should be in the above category ahead of someone else... no doubt I’ll cop some criticism for having Gresh there as a def elite to be gun ahead of Ross and Roberton...
And below that you have Savage, Dunstan, Acres, Steele, Newnes, Bruce and Armitage - all of which, their best is good enough.
I know the forum is a bit on the doom and gloom side at the moment but I don’t know, I reckon we could be better than many think.
With that in mind, I wanted to get people’s thoughts on what it is we actually have.
For mine, I think we actually have four, close to five even if they’re not entirely there yet.
I think most would agree that Jack Steven is there... he’s a damaging, fast, ball winning mid and whilst his disposal isn’t up to the standard of say the top few mids, if he gets more help now that he has regained full fitness, I reckon we’ll see him tear games up far more regularly.
Jack Billings is another that to me, is clearly and A-Grade premium mid with all the talent to burn. He actually almost played like an elite mid for most of last season minus the fact that something just happened to him when he had set shots for goal. But like we saw in the game vs Carlton, when he gets the confidence up and he’s on... he’s very near unstoppable.
23.36 he kicked in 2017... if that was say 41.18 we pbly would have got into September and maybe even won a final or two. Very confident he gets there.
Jake Carlisle is another that IMO plays his position to an elite level and has all the tricks... he’s not quite as dominant as other defenders but he’s strong in all areas of the ground and if we can get our defensive structure right so that it’s not completely dependent on him and he can use his offensive capabilities more often... he’s clearly a gun and I reckon he was a steal at the price we got him for.
My final pick... as controversial as it may be, is Jade Gresham. Yes he’s not elite yet but if there’s ever a player that has demonstrated everything you. Plus want from a third year players it’s the Gresh... he seems to either do amazing things, or fail after almost doing amazing things.
30.30 last season... averaging 14 disposals... imagine if he can get his hands on the pill a few more times a game and fix up that goal kicking... could be 40.20 whilst getting 2-3 assists.
Next tier down you have Ross, Roberton, Membrey and Sinclair that many will argue should be in the above category ahead of someone else... no doubt I’ll cop some criticism for having Gresh there as a def elite to be gun ahead of Ross and Roberton...
And below that you have Savage, Dunstan, Acres, Steele, Newnes, Bruce and Armitage - all of which, their best is good enough.
I know the forum is a bit on the doom and gloom side at the moment but I don’t know, I reckon we could be better than many think.
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Re: So who are our elite players...
you raise some valid points but I would have Ross, Roberton and Sinclair as my first tier. i.e. our all Australian squad members and our one elite player (based on certain stats).
Its not all doom and gloom and there is a lot of potential in a lot of our players and if some step up we will have a better season than expected. Problem is the lack of pace thru the midfield and we get found out a lot. I appreciate Hunter was picked to hopefully fill this void but realistically he will take some time to be a gun, hopefully only a year
Its not all doom and gloom and there is a lot of potential in a lot of our players and if some step up we will have a better season than expected. Problem is the lack of pace thru the midfield and we get found out a lot. I appreciate Hunter was picked to hopefully fill this void but realistically he will take some time to be a gun, hopefully only a year
- desertsaint
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Re: So who are our elite players...
I'm not sure I'd put much faith in rating a player on champion data elite status. Players not ranked elite include selwood, kelly, merret, bontempelli, mitchell, parker and shiel.
By AFL's player ratings here is our top twelve in order - Geary and Sinclair in top 15. Obvious glaring omission is Carlisle as he didn't play 2016. I'd pretty much say there's our potential future elites there (especially the youngsters under 25) listed below - plus Sincs and hopefully a couple of our new draft picks and fingers crossed - McCartin. In reality only a few will get there - I'd go for Carlisle, Roberton, Jade, Luke, Steele, and Jack B as our likeliest. Steven unlikely to get better from here and Ross I'd be pleasantly surprised if he improves further - but I thought he and Carlisle were our best last year.
Jack Steven
Sebastian Ross
Tim Membrey
Jack Newnes
Jade Gresham
Luke Dunstan
Shane Savage
Dylan Roberton
Jack Billings
Jack Steele
Sam Gilbert
Blake Acres
By AFL's player ratings here is our top twelve in order - Geary and Sinclair in top 15. Obvious glaring omission is Carlisle as he didn't play 2016. I'd pretty much say there's our potential future elites there (especially the youngsters under 25) listed below - plus Sincs and hopefully a couple of our new draft picks and fingers crossed - McCartin. In reality only a few will get there - I'd go for Carlisle, Roberton, Jade, Luke, Steele, and Jack B as our likeliest. Steven unlikely to get better from here and Ross I'd be pleasantly surprised if he improves further - but I thought he and Carlisle were our best last year.
Jack Steven
Sebastian Ross
Tim Membrey
Jack Newnes
Jade Gresham
Luke Dunstan
Shane Savage
Dylan Roberton
Jack Billings
Jack Steele
Sam Gilbert
Blake Acres
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Re: So who are our elite players...
Spot on about Gresham, skeptic. How's that trade looking now? Carlisle and Gresham for Aaron Francis. At last we've got one over the dopers.
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- saintsRrising
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Re: So who are our elite players...
Right here and now we still have one = Steven.
The others are just potentially. Which is where we are at. We have a number who have indicated that they COULD become elite. IF we can have more step up to ACTUALLY become elite then we will become a threat. If not we will will not make the eight.
The others are just potentially. Which is where we are at. We have a number who have indicated that they COULD become elite. IF we can have more step up to ACTUALLY become elite then we will become a threat. If not we will will not make the eight.
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Re: So who are our elite players...
Potential elite
In order:
1. Jack Billings
2. Blake Acres
3. Jade Gresham
4. Jack Steven
5. Jake Carlisle
6. Seb Ross
7. Tim Membrey
Maybe Hunter Clarke and Nick Coffield?
All others could be good players who are occasionally very good.
The first 3 for me hold the real potential to seperate us from just a mid table team.
In order:
1. Jack Billings
2. Blake Acres
3. Jade Gresham
4. Jack Steven
5. Jake Carlisle
6. Seb Ross
7. Tim Membrey
Maybe Hunter Clarke and Nick Coffield?
All others could be good players who are occasionally very good.
The first 3 for me hold the real potential to seperate us from just a mid table team.
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Re: So who are our elite players...
The key stocks that have huge rise potential are Billings and The Gresh.saintsRrising wrote:Right here and now we still have one = Steven.
The others are just potentially. Which is where we are at. We have a number who have indicated that they COULD become elite. IF we can have more step up to ACTUALLY become elite then we will become a threat. If not we will will not make the eight.
Greshem in our famous final game of the year against Richmond was incredible. That game was a coming of age one that showed us his true potential. He could become as good as Billings
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Re: So who are our elite players...
I generally agree with this, but a bit harsh on Stuv. He was playing injured last year and 2014-2016 Steven is a much better player than Acres and Gresham are right now. He can play inside or out, tackles, is quick and can kick goals.fugazi wrote:Potential elite
In order:
1. Jack Billings
2. Blake Acres
3. Jade Gresham
4. Jack Steven
5. Jake Carlisle
6. Seb Ross
7. Tim Membrey
Maybe Hunter Clarke and Nick Coffield?
All others could be good players who are occasionally very good.
The first 3 for me hold the real potential to seperate us from just a mid table team.
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Re: So who are our elite players...
Ross, Steven only.
Billings and Gresham will get there.
Billings and Gresham will get there.
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- Winmar
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Re: So who are our elite players...
Give it a year or two and The Gresh should become the kind of player that other clubs always used to have, but St Kilda rarely did. If he can make himself a more rounded player to go with his flashy stuff he'll become one of the best players at the club.saintspremiers wrote: Greshem in our famous final game of the year against Richmond was incredible. That game was a coming of age one that showed us his true potential. He could become as good as Billings
He kicked 4 or 5 against Richmond, didn't he?
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Re: So who are our elite players...
Nailed it, all have potential to be A grader at their positionfugazi wrote:Potential elite
In order:
1. Jack Billings
2. Blake Acres
3. Jade Gresham
4. Jack Steven
5. Jake Carlisle
6. Seb Ross
7. Tim Membrey
Maybe Hunter Clarke and Nick Coffield?
All others could be good players who are occasionally very good.
The first 3 for me hold the real potential to seperate us from just a mid table team.
- skeptic
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Re: So who are our elite players...
Stian wrote:OOOKAAAAYYYYY,
So, everybody is writing off the no.1 draft pick. Isn't that a really big call??
To be honest... I haven't read many posts that suggest he hasn't got it. More that he's a concussion away from retirement and it's a hard case to argue against
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Re: So who are our elite players...
Should he play midfield, do you think, or be a specialist goalsneak?Winmar wrote:Give it a year or two and The Gresh should become the kind of player that other clubs always used to have, but St Kilda rarely did. If he can make himself a more rounded player to go with his flashy stuff he'll become one of the best players at the club.saintspremiers wrote: Greshem in our famous final game of the year against Richmond was incredible. That game was a coming of age one that showed us his true potential. He could become as good as Billings
He kicked 4 or 5 against Richmond, didn't he?
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Re: So who are our elite players...
Should he play midfield, do you think, or be a specialist goalsneak?Winmar wrote:Give it a year or two and The Gresh should become the kind of player that other clubs always used to have, but St Kilda rarely did. If he can make himself a more rounded player to go with his flashy stuff he'll become one of the best players at the club.saintspremiers wrote: Greshem in our famous final game of the year against Richmond was incredible. That game was a coming of age one that showed us his true potential. He could become as good as Billings
He kicked 4 or 5 against Richmond, didn't he?
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Re: So who are our elite players...
Rioli type.. half forward and stints on wingbigcarl wrote:Should he play midfield, do you think, or be a specialist goalsneak?Winmar wrote:Give it a year or two and The Gresh should become the kind of player that other clubs always used to have, but St Kilda rarely did. If he can make himself a more rounded player to go with his flashy stuff he'll become one of the best players at the club.saintspremiers wrote: Greshem in our famous final game of the year against Richmond was incredible. That game was a coming of age one that showed us his true potential. He could become as good as Billings
He kicked 4 or 5 against Richmond, didn't he?
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Re: So who are our elite players...
We don't have any elite players yet- Steven and Ross are extremely good on their day, but not elite. We have potential elite though, and this is the year I would like to see those verging on elite, come through with the goods. Carlise, Gresham, Billings, Membrey are my big 4, and at a minimum, one of those needs a big season.
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Re: So who are our elite players...
Yep, that's a good point. It just hurts to think about it.skeptic wrote:Stian wrote:OOOKAAAAYYYYY,
So, everybody is writing off the no.1 draft pick. Isn't that a really big call??
To be honest... I haven't read many posts that suggest he hasn't got it. More that he's a concussion away from retirement and it's a hard case to argue against
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Re: So who are our elite players...
This is a tough one.
It has always concerned me that Jack Steven, terrific though he is, was winning the B&F. No way that we would win a premiership as long as there was no-one better.
I don’t think we have any A-grade players.
Best bets for making it to elite are Carlisle and Gresham. I just love Gresham.
It has always concerned me that Jack Steven, terrific though he is, was winning the B&F. No way that we would win a premiership as long as there was no-one better.
I don’t think we have any A-grade players.
Best bets for making it to elite are Carlisle and Gresham. I just love Gresham.
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Re: So who are our elite players...
plus one.parkeysainter wrote:Ross, Steven only.
Billings and Gresham will get there.
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Re: So who are our elite players...
Tom Hickey?saynta wrote:plus one.parkeysainter wrote:Ross, Steven only.
Billings and Gresham will get there.
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Re: So who are our elite players...
What about the defenders? Carlisle and Roberton were getting it done fro most of last year. I am pumped to watch those 2 stopping incoming traffic all year.
Plus I am a big fan of Sinclair. Imagine if he, Gresh and Billings all fire. That will be one hell of an attacking combo
Plus I am a big fan of Sinclair. Imagine if he, Gresh and Billings all fire. That will be one hell of an attacking combo
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Re: So who are our elite players...
According to today's Herald Sun, we have one elite player: Jack Sinclair.
Elite: Jack Sinclair
Above Average: Billings, Carlisle, Membrey, Gresham, Savage, Roberton, Newnes
Average: Steven(?!) , Ross (?!), Webster, Longer, Acres, Geary, Hickey, Weller, Lonie, Steele, Minchington, McKenzie, Gilbert
Jack Steven and Seb Ross - our top 2 players - are rated average (and 2 rungs below Sinclair - who I really rate as a player, but, still ... ????).
Elite: Jack Sinclair
Above Average: Billings, Carlisle, Membrey, Gresham, Savage, Roberton, Newnes
Average: Steven(?!) , Ross (?!), Webster, Longer, Acres, Geary, Hickey, Weller, Lonie, Steele, Minchington, McKenzie, Gilbert
Jack Steven and Seb Ross - our top 2 players - are rated average (and 2 rungs below Sinclair - who I really rate as a player, but, still ... ????).
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Re: So who are our elite players...
Players who HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO BE ELITE THIS YEAR:
Billings
Acres
McCartin
Armitage (again)
Carlisle
Gresham
Steele
Membrey
wouldda liked to have put FREEMAN here
ALREADY ESTABLISHED ELITE:
Steven
ELITE OF AA-SQUAD LAST YEAR:
Sinclair
Roberton
Ross
I don't think it's all gloom and doom. I'm bullish on Acres, Billings, Steele, Gresh, McCartin, and Membrey improving (Membrey can go another level. His improvement over 2 yrs has been stunning and somewhat overlooked given he's 'only' a halkf-forward flanker). I'm thinking a Tony Hall type. Remember him? He was a star.
... with the others continuing or growing slightly... we look a damn good team with a core elite group approaching 10 players.
I also think back to 2008... what actually happened to make us suddenly a top-two team? Montagna and and Kozi and Gilbert and Gram had breakout years. Gram and Gilbert and Kozi never reproduced that.
That's 4 guys alone whose meteoric rise to match the standards of Riewoldt, Dal Santo, Hayes, Milne, Hudghton, Baker
We have that small core, injuries forgiving: Armitage, Steven, Carlisle, Ross, Roberton who can and should produce at that level. Add 4 of the above (and Sinclair) to that and ya have a team.
Billings
Acres
McCartin
Armitage (again)
Carlisle
Gresham
Steele
Membrey
wouldda liked to have put FREEMAN here
ALREADY ESTABLISHED ELITE:
Steven
ELITE OF AA-SQUAD LAST YEAR:
Sinclair
Roberton
Ross
I don't think it's all gloom and doom. I'm bullish on Acres, Billings, Steele, Gresh, McCartin, and Membrey improving (Membrey can go another level. His improvement over 2 yrs has been stunning and somewhat overlooked given he's 'only' a halkf-forward flanker). I'm thinking a Tony Hall type. Remember him? He was a star.
... with the others continuing or growing slightly... we look a damn good team with a core elite group approaching 10 players.
I also think back to 2008... what actually happened to make us suddenly a top-two team? Montagna and and Kozi and Gilbert and Gram had breakout years. Gram and Gilbert and Kozi never reproduced that.
That's 4 guys alone whose meteoric rise to match the standards of Riewoldt, Dal Santo, Hayes, Milne, Hudghton, Baker
We have that small core, injuries forgiving: Armitage, Steven, Carlisle, Ross, Roberton who can and should produce at that level. Add 4 of the above (and Sinclair) to that and ya have a team.
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Re: So who are our elite players...
What exactly is the definition of elite? I guess Dustin Martin was definitely "elite" last year, whereas the Bont, who was "elite" the year before, was only "good" last year. Is Gary Ablett "elite" now? Who cares and what real difference does it make? Sam Gilbert has been "elite" in some games.
Richmond won the flag with arguably 2 "elite" players - Martin & Rance, with Riewoldt close. They won the flag because a group of good but not "elite" players jelled together at the right time, with a game plan to suit their size and speed. Bulldogs the year before the same, the Bont being "elite" at the time but who else?
Really a whole lot of ...phooeey.
Richmond won the flag with arguably 2 "elite" players - Martin & Rance, with Riewoldt close. They won the flag because a group of good but not "elite" players jelled together at the right time, with a game plan to suit their size and speed. Bulldogs the year before the same, the Bont being "elite" at the time but who else?
Really a whole lot of ...phooeey.