Ok, Serious Coaching Thread

[Johnny Member]

Chicken or the egg?

Horse or the chariot?

Strategy or players?


As a coach, do you develop a game plan or strategy, and then try to create a team that can play it effectively?

Or do you get a team, then try to develop a game plan or strategy that suits them?


Whatever TF it is that Richardson is trying to get the players to do, it isn't working. We all think we know what he wants - cause that's all the f**k he ever says: Solid. Strong. Pressure. Tackling. Pleasing.

But we're nothing of the sort. We don't hold tackles. We're soft (in a footballing sense) in that regard.

We aren't strong. Hickey was outmarked by a forward pocket in a one-on-one the other week. And h'es not Robinson Crusoe. Some of the s*** that guys like Webster and Acres dish up in the 'strong' space for a professional footballer is just cringe worthy.

Pressure?? I've felt more pressure trying to take a turd without making too much noise when the cubicle next to me has someone in it.

And the 'solid' thing? Unless that's code for 'leak goals to s*** players' then we're failing there too.


And as for 'pleasing'......please.



So, do we sack the entire list except for Gilbert and Geary and bring in 30 other blokes who have a red hot crack every week but can't play football? Or do we change our game plan and strategy to suit the blokes we've spent 4 years recruiting?



Discuss....

[Con Gorozidis]

Pressure?? I've felt more pressure trying to take a turd without making too much noise when the cubicle next to me has someone in it.

.

Not enough toilet humour on here.

[skeptic]

To put it bluntly, Richo doesn't get sacked now (esp given that they've extended his contract, but too early for mine) but he's on notice...

He's been given a solid amount of time to rebuild and to be honest, for the most part, the trajectory has been good. Even this year when things have stagnated a bit, there's been a lot to like.

The thing is, there are a number of problems with the club/coaching/list etc that have dragged on for a while now that need to be put to bed.
Richo's pass or fail next season depends on his ability to address them.

In no particular order they include...

1. The list: obviously building a list is an ever ongoing process that never finishes but there are a few problems that have dragged on for too long.
- We need two classy midfielders, good disposal, and fast
- We need at least one more capable/developing defender
- We need a primary ruck that can win tap outs and is decent around the ground

And finally, we have way too many HFF and HBF... Jack of all trade master of none types
D-mac
Meatball
Lonie
Billings
Savage
Long
Newnes
Wright
Weller
Gresh

I'm not suggesting that all/most of those players be cut... but there's way too many of a particular type of player on that list and most aren't consistently good enough to be in our 22. In a team that lacks midfield depth, good skills and these are the players that should be providing it and essentially rob us of what we need (some better than others)

2. Skills
It's been an identified issue for years. WE ARE TERRIBLE BY FOOT. We miss targets, we spray shots, we're often easily brushed off the contest... we take players like Bruce, Roo and Membrey which is possibly the most talented three collectives forwards on any list and put them under scrutiny time and time again by giving their defenders every advantage we can to spoil and clear the ball. In our forwards don't work miracles, we don't kick goals.

3. Game plan and structure. We all know it... we are incapable of not bombing the ball into F50 into a 3 on 1. We do it every single week. AND we seriously over handball, move the ball indirectly via the wing, pass backwards and forwards and so fourth. And let's not forget about the whole Longer incident with the free corridor

4. We are psychologically WEAK. Hands down we are the worst set shots of any team. Every good kick for goal that walks into the club catches the plague and loses the ability to perform a skill they've been doing since the age of 4. The most unreliable team from set shots from about the 25m onwards.
We bleed goals in the dying minutes of quarters... consistently
There are too many occasions where we either look like a million bucks and fall away e.g. Melbourne, WCE etc or essentially get shut out of games, or seemingly don't turn up e.g. Essendon.

All of the above needs to be addressed. By the end of 2018, Richo needs to demonstrate that this club is no longer rebuilding and has moved onto the next phase which is finals footy and tweaking to consistently play finals and win a flag.

I reckon we'll know early next season where we are

[sainters85]

game plan needs to be changed. We play old school footy - pressure tackle, kick long all that bs which doesn't work anymore. We play the polar opposite brand of footy to the swans. We CANNOT maintain possesion by chipping the pill from defence to our fwd 50. Our drafting probably hasn't been as good as the dees considering they've been a shithole for the last decade and have racked up stacks of no.1 picks. However, at least play a more consistent and reasonable brand of footy rather than this schoolyard s*** we play. This "pressure" game plan only works for quick sides like Freo a few years back. We are NOT a quick side.

[WellardSaint]

Pressure?? I've felt more pressure trying to take a turd without making too much noise when the cubicle next to me has someone in it.

.

Not enough toilet humour on here.

when I get blocked up, I just revisit any of Moses' press conferences (taking the phone to the dunny)
and his monotone garbage gets my peristaltic movements up and about (intestinal muscle movements)

[Saintmatt]

Unfortunately - we require so much effort and intensity because we're continually turning it over and chasing ar$e. But - when the other team brings intensity and effort - then we're stuffed .... because most teams don't turn it over nearly as much as us.

BTW - you left "incredibly" out of the Richo dictionary. I can't watch or listen to him anymore. He's a walking cliche - I hate it and it's cringeworthy/embarrassing.

[The Fireman]

no finals next year...no Richo

[The OtherThommo]

I'll introduce a little controversy: when Roo hurt his knee earlier this year, the coaching panel threw the near 2 year strategy out the window - in '15, all said Roo would play well up the ground, 'mid' in fact (and he even said himself he found it new to be coached among the midfield group - even said he struggled with some of the 'mid talk').

Yet, when he got the knock to his knee, out went the whole strategy - back to Roo as the 'go to guy' forward.

'Lurv' Roo, but he ruled to the detriment of the side's development. Yeah, it was great v Rance, but otherwise? We stalled, big time.

And, it contributed to the stalling of McCartin's progress, and I call that appalling resource management.... and weak.

[Linton Lodger]

I'm as annoyed as anyone, but if we hadn't squandered opportunities, unfortunately a pattern this year. We would have won the game.

In fact if it were not so below par in our finishing for most of the season, we'd be sitting on about 13 wins with a percentage of about 115% at the moment, wondering if we could get Top 4 and lauding Richo's genius.

That despite still been a relatively young list that has inconsistency issues, with an incomplete midfield.

It's bloody frustrating, but there is a lot of cause for optimism.

[Linton Lodger]

I'll introduce a little controversy: when Roo hurt his knee earlier this year, the coaching panel threw the near 2 year strategy out the window - in '15, all said Roo would play well up the ground, 'mid' in fact (and he even said himself he found it new to be coached among the midfield group - even said he struggled with some of the 'mid talk').

Yet, when he got the knock to his knee, out went the whole strategy - back to Roo as the 'go to guy' forward.

'Lurv' Roo, but he ruled to the detriment of the side's development. Yeah, it was great v Rance, but otherwise? We stalled, big time.

And, it contributed to the stalling of McCartin's progress, and I call that appalling resource management.... and weak.

Spot on.

[Yorkeys]

May I agree with you all without sounding Allanish. My theory is AR never expected to be a senior coach. He has managed to get 5 years on the gravy train. It has set him up. He is no genius and he knows it, he knows his limitations. Premiership coaches other than Malcom Blight have a unique comparative advantage in some aspect of coaching (Blight was lucky with a stellar Adelaide side and Stan choking). He will coach earnestly next year; with Roo and Joey gone others will blossom; hopefully Paddy, Marshall, Battle, Rice, Goddard and Freeman live up to their potential and hopefully Alan gets lucky. But I don't think he is really fussed. We need a coach with a comparative advantage soonish or a lot of luck we don't deserve - either would be pleasing and positive.

[Con Gorozidis]

May I agree with you all without sounding Allanish. My theory is AR never expected to be a senior coach. He has managed to get 5 years on the gravy train. It has set him up. He is no genius and he knows it, he knows his limitations. Premiership coaches other than Malcom Blight have a unique comparative advantage in some aspect of coaching (Blight was lucky with a stellar Adelaide side and Stan choking). He will coach earnestly next year; with Roo and Joey gone others will blossom; hopefully Paddy, Marshall, Battle, Rice, Goddard and Freeman live up to their potential and hopefully Alan gets lucky. But I don't think he is really fussed. We need a coach with a comparative advantage soonish or a lot of luck we don't deserve - either would be pleasing and positive.

I agree. Richo is a good solid citizen. A safe set of hands for a team in transition. A decent bloke. Reliable.
That's why I think letting him see out 2018 is the right thing to do. 5 years is a good innings. 5 years more than he probably ever expected.

[BadRossco]

All very well to have a number of different game plans but I suggest that our current group of players will struggle to cope with anything that is not very basic.

[saintsRrising]

To put it bluntly, Richo doesn't get sacked now (esp given that they've extended his contract, but too early for mine) but he's on notice...

He's been given a solid amount of time to rebuild and to be honest, for the most part, the trajectory has been good. Even this year when things have stagnated a bit, there's been a lot to like.

The thing is, there are a number of problems with the club/coaching/list etc that have dragged on for a while now that need to be put to bed.
Richo's pass or fail next season depends on his ability to address them.

In no particular order they include...

1. The list: obviously building a list is an ever ongoing process that never finishes but there are a few problems that have dragged on for too long.
- We need two classy midfielders, good disposal, and fast
- We need at least one more capable/developing defender
- We need a primary ruck that can win tap outs and is decent around the ground

And finally, we have way too many HFF and HBF... Jack of all trade master of none types
D-mac
Meatball
Lonie
Billings
Savage
Long
Newnes
Wright
Weller
Gresh

I'm not suggesting that all/most of those players be cut... but there's way too many of a particular type of player on that list and most aren't consistently good enough to be in our 22. In a team that lacks midfield depth, good skills and these are the players that should be providing it and essentially rob us of what we need (some better than others)

2. Skills
It's been an identified issue for years. WE ARE TERRIBLE BY FOOT. We miss targets, we spray shots, we're often easily brushed off the contest... we take players like Bruce, Roo and Membrey which is possibly the most talented three collectives forwards on any list and put them under scrutiny time and time again by giving their defenders every advantage we can to spoil and clear the ball. In our forwards don't work miracles, we don't kick goals.

3. Game plan and structure. We all know it... we are incapable of not bombing the ball into F50 into a 3 on 1. We do it every single week. AND we seriously over handball, move the ball indirectly via the wing, pass backwards and forwards and so fourth. And let's not forget about the whole Longer incident with the free corridor

4. We are psychologically WEAK. Hands down we are the worst set shots of any team. Every good kick for goal that walks into the club catches the plague and loses the ability to perform a skill they've been doing since the age of 4. The most unreliable team from set shots from about the 25m onwards.
We bleed goals in the dying minutes of quarters... consistently
There are too many occasions where we either look like a million bucks and fall away e.g. Melbourne, WCE etc or essentially get shut out of games, or seemingly don't turn up e.g. Essendon.

All of the above needs to be addressed. By the end of 2018, Richo needs to demonstrate that this club is no longer rebuilding and has moved onto the next phase which is finals footy and tweaking to consistently play finals and win a flag.

I reckon we'll know early next season where we are

I think I can sum it up more concisely for you:

The very bitter reality is that we are a team of downhill skiers who take the easy option and who can look good when there is little pressure, but when the pressure is on we cough up the ball all too easily with poor handballs or bombs and go to water whenever we are within sniffing distance of goals (and not just the misses as we will pass it on badly rather than take shots).

A lot of this has to get back to the coach whether it be gameplans, or not getting into players heads. For 2017 Richo is an F for mine.

The recruiting team also needs to pull out their fingers and start recruiting more players that can use the ball well.

[scallopsroe]

To put it bluntly, Richo doesn't get sacked now (esp given that they've extended his contract, but too early for mine) but he's on notice...

He's been given a solid amount of time to rebuild and to be honest, for the most part, the trajectory has been good. Even this year when things have stagnated a bit, there's been a lot to like.

The thing is, there are a number of problems with the club/coaching/list etc that have dragged on for a while now that need to be put to bed.
Richo's pass or fail next season depends on his ability to address them.

In no particular order they include...

1. The list: obviously building a list is an ever ongoing process that never finishes but there are a few problems that have dragged on for too long.
- We need two classy midfielders, good disposal, and fast
- We need at least one more capable/developing defender
- We need a primary ruck that can win tap outs and is decent around the ground

And finally, we have way too many HFF and HBF... Jack of all trade master of none types
D-mac
Meatball
Lonie
Billings
Savage
Long
Newnes
Wright
Weller
Gresh

I'm not suggesting that all/most of those players be cut... but there's way too many of a particular type of player on that list and most aren't consistently good enough to be in our 22. In a team that lacks midfield depth, good skills and these are the players that should be providing it and essentially rob us of what we need (some better than others)

2. Skills
It's been an identified issue for years. WE ARE TERRIBLE BY FOOT. We miss targets, we spray shots, we're often easily brushed off the contest... we take players like Bruce, Roo and Membrey which is possibly the most talented three collectives forwards on any list and put them under scrutiny time and time again by giving their defenders every advantage we can to spoil and clear the ball. In our forwards don't work miracles, we don't kick goals.

3. Game plan and structure. We all know it... we are incapable of not bombing the ball into F50 into a 3 on 1. We do it every single week. AND we seriously over handball, move the ball indirectly via the wing, pass backwards and forwards and so fourth. And let's not forget about the whole Longer incident with the free corridor

4. We are psychologically WEAK. Hands down we are the worst set shots of any team. Every good kick for goal that walks into the club catches the plague and loses the ability to perform a skill they've been doing since the age of 4. The most unreliable team from set shots from about the 25m onwards.
We bleed goals in the dying minutes of quarters... consistently
There are too many occasions where we either look like a million bucks and fall away e.g. Melbourne, WCE etc or essentially get shut out of games, or seemingly don't turn up e.g. Essendon.

All of the above needs to be addressed. By the end of 2018, Richo needs to demonstrate that this club is no longer rebuilding and has moved onto the next phase which is finals footy and tweaking to consistently play finals and win a flag.

I reckon we'll know early next season where we are

I reckon Billy's game today was great. Jake Carlisle and Gilbo will good together with Billings courage. Our Foot and hand skills are crap, our game strategy needs some more experienced input (better assistant coaches) where do we get those from I don't know, we are mentally brittle when a team gets a run on against us, that is an opponent will kick easy goals behind us in play us as Melbourne did in the first quarter, that is why we have been belted in games this year. TBH we aren't good enough under pressure. Use last two games to experiment, but don't finish ninth. Use the early draft picks for the future. If Richo is still there coaching us, fine, otherwise it's that hard climb back up the ladder with our pants around around our ankles.

[David-Lee]

To put it bluntly, Richo doesn't get sacked now (esp given that they've extended his contract, but too early for mine) but he's on notice...

He's been given a solid amount of time to rebuild and to be honest, for the most part, the trajectory has been good. Even this year when things have stagnated a bit, there's been a lot to like.

The thing is, there are a number of problems with the club/coaching/list etc that have dragged on for a while now that need to be put to bed.
Richo's pass or fail next season depends on his ability to address them.

In no particular order they include...

1. The list: obviously building a list is an ever ongoing process that never finishes but there are a few problems that have dragged on for too long.
- We need two classy midfielders, good disposal, and fast
- We need at least one more capable/developing defender
- We need a primary ruck that can win tap outs and is decent around the ground

And finally, we have way too many HFF and HBF... Jack of all trade master of none types
D-mac
Meatball
Lonie
Billings
Savage
Long
Newnes
Wright
Weller
Gresh

I'm not suggesting that all/most of those players be cut... but there's way too many of a particular type of player on that list and most aren't consistently good enough to be in our 22. In a team that lacks midfield depth, good skills and these are the players that should be providing it and essentially rob us of what we need (some better than others)

2. Skills
It's been an identified issue for years. WE ARE TERRIBLE BY FOOT. We miss targets, we spray shots, we're often easily brushed off the contest... we take players like Bruce, Roo and Membrey which is possibly the most talented three collectives forwards on any list and put them under scrutiny time and time again by giving their defenders every advantage we can to spoil and clear the ball. In our forwards don't work miracles, we don't kick goals.

3. Game plan and structure. We all know it... we are incapable of not bombing the ball into F50 into a 3 on 1. We do it every single week. AND we seriously over handball, move the ball indirectly via the wing, pass backwards and forwards and so fourth. And let's not forget about the whole Longer incident with the free corridor

4. We are psychologically WEAK. Hands down we are the worst set shots of any team. Every good kick for goal that walks into the club catches the plague and loses the ability to perform a skill they've been doing since the age of 4. The most unreliable team from set shots from about the 25m onwards.
We bleed goals in the dying minutes of quarters... consistently
There are too many occasions where we either look like a million bucks and fall away e.g. Melbourne, WCE etc or essentially get shut out of games, or seemingly don't turn up e.g. Essendon.

All of the above needs to be addressed. By the end of 2018, Richo needs to demonstrate that this club is no longer rebuilding and has moved onto the next phase which is finals footy and tweaking to consistently play finals and win a flag.

I reckon we'll know early next season where we are

Not everything I agree on but most is well said ( we need new assistant coaches and you gave the forwards a 'best in comp' tag? Better than GWS/SYD? No) a solid assessment. Thanks

[fugazi]

Richo needs some more help.
Just not a strategist.
Not his fault we miss open goals but it is his fault we can't ever seem to stop a run on of goals.

[Yorkeys]

How about a succession plan in 2018 for 2019. AR must be getting middle of the table fatigue and cliche block. He'd be a good Director of Football for long term. Mr Bains could take his current reputation and cash in on it before there is too much of a stocktake of what he has actually contributed. Also I'd love to get the unredacted copies of the end of season assessments of the players and coaches - if that happens objectively - as an insight into the collective coaching nous and 2018 strategies.

[magnifisaint]

I'm a big fan of Richo but like most say I don't think he has the right support in the box. If he doesn't coach out of his skin next year his contract won't be renewed. I'm wondering if he has more to give?

[carn_sainter]

I wonder if Richo says in the members only video exactly what he fully believes.

To me, yesterday, we were thoroughly outcoached. Melbourne got the game on their terms and we were unable to stop them. In the 3rd, we won enough contested ball to get on top of the game.

But when Melbourne had the ball, all game, they played exactly as they wanted and we didn't stop them. We defend the same way every week.

Anyway, Richo attributed the loss to poor disposal going forward. But our problems were so much more than that. I hopr that at least to himself he acknowledges how we were outcoached and came in with no plan to play against the demons

[saintspremiers]

It goes back to quarters like the first against the Dees. HOW in gods name can we be so mentally fragile and make a Shyte team in Melbourne look like premiers?

The coach's job is to get his team mentally up for games. Yes it's a long season but we had a great win last week and there are only a few games to go. Huge carrot to play finals.

We made only one change, so by definition that means the coach and the selection panel believe the boys are all up to it.

Any signs of mental fatigue during the week should've been identified and dealt with. You can't go into games so off the boil you look like a VFL side.

It's happened quite a bit this season.

Richo has 2018 to fix it, bring us into the finals or he needs to go.

Assuming we get a FA, his list profile will be a lot better. If Jackie Boy Steven and Armo are fully fit the upside is massive.

[GregPackhamsHeadband]

Pressure?? I've felt more pressure trying to take a turd without making too much noise when the cubicle next to me has someone in it.

.

Not enough toilet humour on here.

when I get blocked up, I just revisit any of Moses' press conferences (taking the phone to the dunny)
and his monotone garbage gets my peristaltic movements up and about (intestinal muscle movements)

That takes the award for the best use of the word peristaltic in a football forum.

[Moods]

We were made to look second rate against a developing team who were missing their key fwd and haven't been able to kick a goal for a month. f***** Harmes was made to look like the Jeff Farmer there for awhile. It was as embarrassing an effort I've seen for quite some time. We were literally deers in the headlights. Completely panicked when placed under any sort of pressure and just coughed the ball up time and time again.

This, to me, is symptomatic of the fact that the players actually don't know what to do when placed under genuine pressure. How can they not? Isn't this what they train for? Aren't these the exact games we're looking to be involved in. If the Dees were a better side we could easily have been down by 10 goals by quarter time. I'm not a big one for sacking the coach but if ppl can't see that we've stagnated then they're not looking. It's not the win/loss ratio it's HOW we're getting beaten that concerns me. Most times we just meekly succumb. At least yesterday we showed some fight - but I repeat, it was against a depleted Dees outfit.

I'll be there Rd 23 to see Roo off - but also with whole heap of other Saints fans, wondering when our next genuine era will start, because to be honest I can't see it happening with this group of players with this coaching panel.

[minneapolis]

Pressure?? I've felt more pressure trying to take a turd without making too much noise when the cubicle next to me has someone in it.

.

Not enough toilet humour on here.

Why was he using the women's toilets?

[Johnny Member]

We were made to look second rate against a developing team who were missing their key fwd and haven't been able to kick a goal for a month. f***** Harmes was made to look like the Jeff Farmer there for awhile. It was as embarrassing an effort I've seen for quite some time. We were literally deers in the headlights. Completely panicked when placed under any sort of pressure and just coughed the ball up time and time again.

This, to me, is symptomatic of the fact that the players actually don't know what to do when placed under genuine pressure. How can they not? Isn't this what they train for? Aren't these the exact games we're looking to be involved in. If the Dees were a better side we could easily have been down by 10 goals by quarter time. I'm not a big one for sacking the coach but if ppl can't see that we've stagnated then they're not looking. It's not the win/loss ratio it's HOW we're getting beaten that concerns me. Most times we just meekly succumb. At least yesterday we showed some fight - but I repeat, it was against a depleted Dees outfit.

I'll be there Rd 23 to see Roo off - but also with whole heap of other Saints fans, wondering when our next genuine era will start, because to be honest I can't see it happening with this group of players with this coaching panel.

Agreed.

Even more sickening was the mental fragility we showed once we were back in the game and we panicked again.

It was like the pressure was off and we were being flogged and had nothing to lose, so we started playing reasonable footy. Then, once it was game on again we s*** ourselves and went back into our shells.


Bitterly disappointing and shameful performance.