Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 9373
- Joined: Wed 03 Aug 2005 10:01pm
- Has thanked: 662 times
- Been thanked: 498 times
Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
Firstly, I have no axe to grind whatsoever with the Western Bulldogs footy club. I bear them no Ill will whatsoever. However, I'm a wee bit miffed at how the media, pundits and (apparently) the football public at large are making this HUGE deal about the doggies and their ( so-called ) "Premiership hangover".
I may be seen as being overly critical of them, but I really don't consider them in the same ilk as Hawthorn, Sydney or Geelong when it comes to being Premiers. YES, they achieved an absolutely fantastic record in winning the flag from the position of seventh on the ladder. But I can't honestly see them being a multi-premiership winning side.
I tend to agree with the assessment of Cam Mooney who (while acknowledging their great Finals success ) did not rate them as the "best side of 2016" and that if the season had concluded at round 23 the Bulldogs would have been the 7th-best performed side. He did say that they were by far the very best FINALS side of 2016.
The Bulldogs haven't been a top four side since 2010, and I don't see them being up there this year. So, far from this being a "premiership hangover" In my humble opinion, the Doggies are exactly where they deserve to be.
I may be seen as being overly critical of them, but I really don't consider them in the same ilk as Hawthorn, Sydney or Geelong when it comes to being Premiers. YES, they achieved an absolutely fantastic record in winning the flag from the position of seventh on the ladder. But I can't honestly see them being a multi-premiership winning side.
I tend to agree with the assessment of Cam Mooney who (while acknowledging their great Finals success ) did not rate them as the "best side of 2016" and that if the season had concluded at round 23 the Bulldogs would have been the 7th-best performed side. He did say that they were by far the very best FINALS side of 2016.
The Bulldogs haven't been a top four side since 2010, and I don't see them being up there this year. So, far from this being a "premiership hangover" In my humble opinion, the Doggies are exactly where they deserve to be.
St Kilda forever ( God help me)
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 7315
- Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 9:31am
- Has thanked: 12 times
- Been thanked: 144 times
Re: Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
And your point being????
Bulldogs people would say so what and watch the Premiership game again.....the rest of supporters please yourself...
Bulldogs people would say so what and watch the Premiership game again.....the rest of supporters please yourself...
saint4life
- skeptic
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 16977
- Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 7:10pm
- Has thanked: 3620 times
- Been thanked: 2893 times
Re: Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
It's not such an easy game with only 18 players on the ground
- Winmar
- Club Player
- Posts: 922
- Joined: Tue 23 Mar 2004 11:52pm
- Location: Canberra
- Has thanked: 14 times
- Been thanked: 26 times
Re: Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
They showed the benefit of being thereabouts in an even year. As long as you're in the finals, anything can happen when there's not dominant side. I'm not overly surprised they're where they are now.
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 9373
- Joined: Wed 03 Aug 2005 10:01pm
- Has thanked: 662 times
- Been thanked: 498 times
Re: Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
[quote="chook23"]And your point being????
Bulldogs people would say so what and watch the Premiership game again.....the rest of supporters please yourself...[/quote]
My point being: that yes, the Doggies confounded the pundits, confounded ( ahem ) " accepted wisdom" that no side outside the top four can win the flag. BUT are they going to be one of the GREAT premiership sides? Well I'd argue that as yet, they're not a consistent top four side.
I take on board your point about doggies supporters enjoying the premiershipof 2016, no argument from me. What I can't understand is how all the commentators are scratching their collective heads at "how far the Bulldogs have fallen in 2017" well, excuse me, but it's not ALL that far to fall from their H&A position of 2016.
If I'm honest, IF the Saints were to win the flag in the next year or two, I'd want them to be repeating it! ORat least being consistently the side to best for the premiership. THATS the point Im making.
Bulldogs people would say so what and watch the Premiership game again.....the rest of supporters please yourself...[/quote]
My point being: that yes, the Doggies confounded the pundits, confounded ( ahem ) " accepted wisdom" that no side outside the top four can win the flag. BUT are they going to be one of the GREAT premiership sides? Well I'd argue that as yet, they're not a consistent top four side.
I take on board your point about doggies supporters enjoying the premiershipof 2016, no argument from me. What I can't understand is how all the commentators are scratching their collective heads at "how far the Bulldogs have fallen in 2017" well, excuse me, but it's not ALL that far to fall from their H&A position of 2016.
If I'm honest, IF the Saints were to win the flag in the next year or two, I'd want them to be repeating it! ORat least being consistently the side to best for the premiership. THATS the point Im making.
St Kilda forever ( God help me)
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 4922
- Joined: Fri 05 Jun 2009 3:05pm
- Has thanked: 336 times
- Been thanked: 483 times
Re: Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
They did win 15 H&A games last year. In previous years that has been enough to make top 4. The best team won 17 last year. Hardly miles off it. They lost games last year due to a massive injury list, which they were able to replenish due to the bye (and I have no issue with that at all) They proved to me that they were the best team in the comp LAST year by beating more fancied teams on their home deck in the finals. What more can they do? The swans entered the GF in great form and the doggies won the game running away. For mine they were deserved winners and this talk of them finishing 7th etc etc is rubbish to me. If it causes ppl to question their flag, why bother having a top 8? Why even play games between 7th and 8th? Why not just have a top 4 as they are the only teams that are worthy winners.
Even in the NBA the top 8 from each division make the play-offs. The fact that the teams in the bottom rungs of the play-offs rarely advance says that they aren't that good. Same goes for AFL. The fact that the doggies did advance indicated to me that they were the real deal. You don't fluke 4 weeks in a row in finals, particularly when 2 of the games are interstate.
They have been cruelled by injuries again this year in what is a very even season. The top team has lost 3 games already FFS. I think they have a great list and will contend for the next 5 yrs.
Even in the NBA the top 8 from each division make the play-offs. The fact that the teams in the bottom rungs of the play-offs rarely advance says that they aren't that good. Same goes for AFL. The fact that the doggies did advance indicated to me that they were the real deal. You don't fluke 4 weeks in a row in finals, particularly when 2 of the games are interstate.
They have been cruelled by injuries again this year in what is a very even season. The top team has lost 3 games already FFS. I think they have a great list and will contend for the next 5 yrs.
- ace
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 10756
- Joined: Sun 16 Dec 2007 3:28pm
- Location: St Kilda
- Has thanked: 31 times
- Been thanked: 824 times
Re: Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
Myth: There is a football club called the Western Bulldogs - FALSE
They are the Footscray Football Club.
They are the Footscray Football Club.
The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
When I was a young child, I knew that I knew so much about so much.
Now that I am old and know so much more, I know that I know so much about so little, and so little about so much.
If you are not engaging AI actively and aggressively, you are doing it wrong.
You are not going to lose your job to AI.
You are going lose your job to somebody who uses AI.
Your company is not going to go out of business because of AI.
Your company is going to go out of business because another company used AI.
- Jensen Huang, CEO of NVIDIA
When I was a young child, I knew that I knew so much about so much.
Now that I am old and know so much more, I know that I know so much about so little, and so little about so much.
If you are not engaging AI actively and aggressively, you are doing it wrong.
You are not going to lose your job to AI.
You are going lose your job to somebody who uses AI.
Your company is not going to go out of business because of AI.
Your company is going to go out of business because another company used AI.
- Jensen Huang, CEO of NVIDIA
- WellardSaint
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 8337
- Joined: Sat 26 May 2012 11:25am
- Location: Perth- the best weather in Oz, but the worst rednecks.
- Has thanked: 1893 times
- Been thanked: 879 times
Re: Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
100% agree with the Jiggster.
They had a fair bit of luck, and they played out of their skins last year,
they played well above themselves. Previously unknown guys like Picken,
who nobody thought were elite, suddenly became matchwinners.
This year they have returned to where they belong.
Stringer is quiet, Libba was dropped, JJ has no real impact,
Boyd and Wood are nothing like last year.
They had a fair bit of luck, and they played out of their skins last year,
they played well above themselves. Previously unknown guys like Picken,
who nobody thought were elite, suddenly became matchwinners.
This year they have returned to where they belong.
Stringer is quiet, Libba was dropped, JJ has no real impact,
Boyd and Wood are nothing like last year.
A real Sainter will pledge allegiance to the ❤ and despise the Pies, the Blues, and the Injectors.
Remember one of the 10 Commandments : Thou shalt have no other team before thee
Remember one of the 10 Commandments : Thou shalt have no other team before thee
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 6602
- Joined: Sat 11 Jun 2011 4:52pm
- Location: Here
- Has thanked: 1306 times
- Been thanked: 467 times
Re: Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
And yet they still thrashed us. What does that tell you?
As ex-president Peter Summers said:
“If we are going to be a contender, we may as well plan to win the bloody thing.”
St Kilda - At least we have a Crest!
“If we are going to be a contender, we may as well plan to win the bloody thing.”
St Kilda - At least we have a Crest!
- SydneySainter
- SS Hall of Fame
- Posts: 2424
- Joined: Sat 26 May 2007 6:59pm
- Has thanked: 54 times
- Been thanked: 155 times
Re: Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
That we're way out of form, or we're not that good.Jacks Back wrote:And yet they still thrashed us. What does that tell you?
Bad management is bad management
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 9124
- Joined: Wed 29 Jun 2005 10:39pm
- Location: A distant beach
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 436 times
Re: Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
Well the Dogs look in their premiership cabinet and see two cups, we only see one.
You make your own luck, and the Dogs were great team last year when it counted, and great teams win premierships, with every player doing their job- not a few stars who you hope will fire on the day.
Opposition coaches are not going to sit on their hands and watch this all happen, and this season a lot more pressure has been put on the Dogs engine room and the ability to move the ball quickly forward, and cleanly at a manic pace. All it takes is a little less intensity, and you lose the contest. I noticed quite a few Dogs players against Melbourne, were holding on to the ball and trying to take on the opposition, and losing possession, rather than doing the lightning handballs of last year
Our effort against the Dogs and Swans was really poor (and not much better against other teams), and the required intensity was not there- Richo seems intent on trying get us to play the fast ball movement at all costs game, but has got it wrong largely.
You make your own luck, and the Dogs were great team last year when it counted, and great teams win premierships, with every player doing their job- not a few stars who you hope will fire on the day.
Opposition coaches are not going to sit on their hands and watch this all happen, and this season a lot more pressure has been put on the Dogs engine room and the ability to move the ball quickly forward, and cleanly at a manic pace. All it takes is a little less intensity, and you lose the contest. I noticed quite a few Dogs players against Melbourne, were holding on to the ball and trying to take on the opposition, and losing possession, rather than doing the lightning handballs of last year
Our effort against the Dogs and Swans was really poor (and not much better against other teams), and the required intensity was not there- Richo seems intent on trying get us to play the fast ball movement at all costs game, but has got it wrong largely.
- Johnny Member
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 4157
- Joined: Thu 05 Oct 2006 12:27pm
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
I think the change of interpretations from the umpires have hurt the Dogs more than anything this year.spert wrote:Well the Dogs look in their premiership cabinet and see two cups, we only see one.
You make your own luck, and the Dogs were great team last year when it counted, and great teams win premierships, with every player doing their job- not a few stars who you hope will fire on the day.
Opposition coaches are not going to sit on their hands and watch this all happen, and this season a lot more pressure has been put on the Dogs engine room and the ability to move the ball quickly forward, and cleanly at a manic pace. All it takes is a little less intensity, and you lose the contest. I noticed quite a few Dogs players against Melbourne, were holding on to the ball and trying to take on the opposition, and losing possession, rather than doing the lightning handballs of last year
Our effort against the Dogs and Swans was really poor (and not much better against other teams), and the required intensity was not there- Richo seems intent on trying get us to play the fast ball movement at all costs game, but has got it wrong largely.
What they were allowed to get away with last season, in particular during the finals series was nothing short of a disgrace.
They're still getting away with it, but nearly as much and now other teams are also
Their differential last year was +112 FFS!!
Yes, that's right +112 Frees For!
This year they're still getting away with it, but nearly as much - they're only +35 this season.
- Johnny Member
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 4157
- Joined: Thu 05 Oct 2006 12:27pm
- Been thanked: 1 time
- WellardSaint
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 8337
- Joined: Sat 26 May 2012 11:25am
- Location: Perth- the best weather in Oz, but the worst rednecks.
- Has thanked: 1893 times
- Been thanked: 879 times
Re: Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
1. It was shortly after Sledgegate,Jacks Back wrote:And yet they still thrashed us. What does that tell you?
where the players were apparently a bit jaded and had lost focus and hunger.
2. Bevo outcoached Richo because, simply, he is a better coach.
3. Our guys didn't stick to the game plan
4. skills were non-existent
5. Far too many handballs by us, they pressured us into turnovers
that's enough reasons right there
A real Sainter will pledge allegiance to the ❤ and despise the Pies, the Blues, and the Injectors.
Remember one of the 10 Commandments : Thou shalt have no other team before thee
Remember one of the 10 Commandments : Thou shalt have no other team before thee
- Bernard Shakey
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 11238
- Joined: Sun 18 Mar 2007 11:22pm
- Location: Down By The River 1989, 2003, 2009 & 2013
- Has thanked: 125 times
- Been thanked: 137 times
Re: Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
Dogs would not have got past the first week of the finals but for the bye after round 23.
They are about where they belong this year, as are we. We have more upside than the Dogs.
They are about where they belong this year, as are we. We have more upside than the Dogs.
Old enough to repaint, but young enough to sell
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 9373
- Joined: Wed 03 Aug 2005 10:01pm
- Has thanked: 662 times
- Been thanked: 498 times
Re: Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
The point ôf my OP is NOT to bad mouth the Doggies, but rather those media pundits and experts who say that they've fallen from the dizzy heights of last year. My point being that they did ever so well last season but are not THAT great a side, that they can be compared to the likes of Hawthorn etc. I'm in total agreement with the points made by Bernard Shakey
St Kilda forever ( God help me)
- Linton Lodger
- SS Hall of Fame
- Posts: 2467
- Joined: Mon 18 Aug 2014 2:07pm
- Has thanked: 86 times
- Been thanked: 256 times
Re: Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
The Bulldogs Premiership was a fluke, not that they don't deserve credit for their Finals form last year and the fact that they did steal it.
That has caused many St Kilda supporters to be frustrated and impatient. Unfortunately, it is pointless for us to hope for a fluke or good fortune.
That has caused many St Kilda supporters to be frustrated and impatient. Unfortunately, it is pointless for us to hope for a fluke or good fortune.
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 23087
- Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 3:53pm
- Has thanked: 9017 times
- Been thanked: 3925 times
Re: Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
IMHO, they were lucky.Bernard Shakey wrote:Dogs would not have got past the first week of the finals but for the bye after round 23.
They are about where they belong this year, as are we. We have more upside than the Dogs.
The bye, Stevie J got suspended and Buddy got injured early in the grannie.
The stars aligned for them.
I knew that this year they would go backwards.
They are not a great team.
- degruch
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 8948
- Joined: Mon 19 May 2008 4:29pm
- Location: Croydonia
- Has thanked: 146 times
- Been thanked: 237 times
Re: Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
I still don't rate them as better than us, let alone backup premiers! Good on them for getting over the line last year though. Our putrid effort against them a few weeks back was a joke, they were ripe for a 6 goal defeat and we choked for the second week in a row against a lesser team.
- Con Gorozidis
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 23532
- Joined: Thu 19 Jun 2008 4:04pm
- Has thanked: 100 times
- Been thanked: 78 times
Re: Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
They will need a lot of luck but I am starting to think the Demons are an outside chance for a flag.
I still think - all things being equal - that GWS will win easily.
This is my % chance of winning the flag for this season:
GWS 60%
Crows 20%
Demons 10%
Cats 5%
Port 3%
Swans 2%
Tiggers 0%
I still think - all things being equal - that GWS will win easily.
This is my % chance of winning the flag for this season:
GWS 60%
Crows 20%
Demons 10%
Cats 5%
Port 3%
Swans 2%
Tiggers 0%
- magnifisaint
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 8089
- Joined: Sun 02 May 2004 2:52am
- Has thanked: 227 times
- Been thanked: 602 times
Re: Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
We have more myths than they have. They have the piece of reality that we want!
Posting 20 years of holey crap!
- dragit
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 13047
- Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2010 11:56am
- Has thanked: 605 times
- Been thanked: 315 times
Re: Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
Yep, the umpiring in that GWS prelim was plain outrageous… we would have heard a lot more about it if anyone actually cared about the giants.Johnny Member wrote: What they were allowed to get away with last season, in particular during the finals series was nothing short of a disgrace.
-
- SS Life Member
- Posts: 3625
- Joined: Wed 21 May 2008 8:51pm
- Location: Tassie
- Has thanked: 487 times
- Been thanked: 316 times
Re: Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
f****** Sledgegate, I'm sick to death of this being thrown up as an excuse for our s*** form.WellardSaint wrote:1. It was shortly after Sledgegate,Jacks Back wrote:And yet they still thrashed us. What does that tell you?
where the players were apparently a bit jaded and had lost focus and hunger.
2. Bevo outcoached Richo because, simply, he is a better coach.
3. Our guys didn't stick to the game plan
4. skills were non-existent
5. Far too many handballs by us, they pressured us into turnovers
that's enough reasons right there
The fact of the matter is we got ahead of ourselves after beating GWS and we actually thought we'd arrived.
- Con Gorozidis
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 23532
- Joined: Thu 19 Jun 2008 4:04pm
- Has thanked: 100 times
- Been thanked: 78 times
Re: Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
degruch wrote:I still don't rate them as better than us
They actually won a flag. In the real world.
We cant even make the eight.
But sure. We are better.
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 4922
- Joined: Fri 05 Jun 2009 3:05pm
- Has thanked: 336 times
- Been thanked: 483 times
Re: Some myths re: the Western Bulldogs
This!Con Gorozidis wrote:degruch wrote:I still don't rate them as better than us
They actually won a flag. In the real world.
We cant even make the eight.
But sure. We are better.
I'm sick of people saying the dogs were lucky to win, or they fluked it. Do you think they care?????? Would we????????
I'd kill to win just one flag. I don't care whether we came from 9th and were asked to compete in the finals because another team cheated. A flag is a flag. We finished top of the ladder in 09 with an incredible win/loss H&A ratio. Strangely no-one gives two f**** about that. I wonder why? If the H&A season meant so much, we'd have an English Premier league arrangement where the top team wins the cup. We don't though. It means jack other than gives you best pole position. The car that has pole doesn't always win the race, but has a good chance. The Dogs won the race last year. Circumstances in the form of good form and players returning went their way, as well as a couple of lucky umpiring decisions. Most years the premiers have a bit of luck. Mostly the team that wins it makes their own luck.
Were we unlucky in 09? No. We kicked terribly despite controlling most of the game. That's not bad luck, that's bad footy. Cats in 08, Kangas in 98, Freo in 2014 all were the same. The dogs are a far better team than us whether we wish to accept it or not. For one, their players rose to the occasion rather than choking on GF day. They have young players on virtually every line. They have a mobile strong marking ruckman in Roughead - we have Longer and a flakey Hickey. They have a superstar in The Bont. We have a smaller version who is only just starting to find his feet in Billings. We have an awful long way to go unfortunately, whereas the Dogs just need to find their mojo and they can compete with the big boys. Sadly we have shown that we cannot. Not yet anyway. We need far more run and spread through the mid field. Better skill to hit targets, and someone who can consistently lead up and KICK STRAIGHT.