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Junior wrote:I think Hickey is the better all round player, but no one should get a game based on last season.
So long as they are fit and have done the work in the off-season, what better basis for selection than runs on the board at the highest level?
No problem with runs on the board when there is little or no competition and you are playing at an acceptable level.
Problem Hickey has is he has Longer right up his backside as competition and on what I have seen so far this pre season Longer is playing better.
Hickey looked terrible against Port, struggled to jump and was in my opionon uncompetitive.
I am actually really surprised as watched a lot of Longer at Sandy last year and thought he was miles behind Hickey.
Think we need to develop a culture of performance, sends the wrong message if we just play a guy because he was great last year.
I think Hamill let the cat out of the bag in his pre Carlton press conference when he let is slip that Hickey has been managing a few things, but then said he was fit to play.
A champion team will always beat a team of champions.
An equally important question, what will be our ruck set-up. What is the impact of no 3rd man up, or the reduced interchange? Do we take two genuine ruckman into a game, or just one and rely on Bruce, Carslile or McCartin to pinch-hit?
Think a number of teams are asking the same question..
Let's break it down.. We cannot, I repeat cannot play 2 ruckman its absolute suicide and never EVER works
Longer is definitely pushing for selection BUT Hickey was fantastic last year..
Compared to the best in the league:
Movement Around the ground Hickey is a 7/10 and Longer is a 5/10
kicking: hickey is a 7/10 and longer 6/10
Marking: hickey 9/10 and longer 6/10
Tap Ruck: hickey 7/10 and longer 7.5/10
This is of course my opinion but I just don't know how longer could be the number 1 unless Hickey has had a bad bad off season and hasn't worked hard enough
I think Hickey but with the additions of Carlisle and Brown to the back line then this negates the need somewhat for the ruck man to keep going back deep to take a mark.
As ex-president Peter Summers said:
“If we are going to be a contender, we may as well plan to win the bloody thing.”
Jacks Back wrote:I think Hickey but with the additions of Carlisle and Brown to the back line then this negates the need somewhat for the ruck man to keep going back deep to take a mark.
This is what Mcevoy used to do.. Hickey was all around the ground.. Not a lot in the backline
mightysainters wrote:Let's break it down.. We cannot, I repeat cannot play 2 ruckman its absolute suicide and never EVER works
Longer is definitely pushing for selection BUT Hickey was fantastic last year..
Compared to the best in the league:
Movement Around the ground Hickey is a 7/10 and Longer is a 5/10
kicking: hickey is a 7/10 and longer 6/10
Marking: hickey 9/10 and longer 6/10
Tap Ruck: hickey 7/10 and longer 7.5/10
This is of course my opinion but I just don't know how longer could be the number 1 unless Hickey has had a bad bad off season and hasn't worked hard enough
Longer is a bit like Mumford. Probably 8/10 Tap Ruck, compared to Hickey about 5/10. Importantly he uses his big body to bulldoze a path for our mids. Fact is that neither Hickey or Longer get a lot of kicks or marks.
In fact my preference is for Holmes as a tap ruckman to Longer.
Hey StPeter! You are correct.
And the last report I received from Rodger, suggests that if Holmesy adds pointing to the scoreboard to his repertoire, then he'll also offer just as much around the ground as Billy does.
What are their endurances like? Longer rucked for a lot of the game on the weekend, maybe the third man change affects trying to subdue when Bruce is in the ruck hence the need for Longer?
Anyways I like Longer, contested beast in the middle, better ruck, blocks and tackles thereafter beat Hickey in the intraclub, probably did well in the non advertised intras. I rate ruckwork as the number 1 priority for a ruckman, not cheap kicks around the ground.
Age is on Longers side too. Longers clearly developing and could have forced his way to the front. It's def not good that hickey was playing Sandy if that is true!
Spinner wrote: It's def not good that hickey was playing Sandy if that is true!
They may have wanted to get a full game into both of them, so one played at Sandy. You can rotate your midfielders so they all get a reasonable amount of game time but it just doesn't work for rucks.
Macquarie Dictionary Word of the Year for 2023 "Kosi Lives"
Spinner wrote: It's def not good that hickey was playing Sandy if that is true!
They may have wanted to get a full game into both of them, so one played at Sandy. You can rotate your midfielders so they all get a reasonable amount of game time but it just doesn't work for rucks.
Exactly but surely the number 1 gets to work with actual St Kilda midfielders rather than Sandy players.
Anyways they could reverse it next week but def no great signs.
Seriously? AFter Hicks was top 5 last year? Billy has been good but not brilliant in these preseason games. Richo does love his big bodied, physical guys. I would be skeptical until R1 is selected. Richo could just be trying to get Hickey to take it to another level by telling him he's no. 2 presently. Unless they want to try Longer main ruck and Hickey in a fwd/relief ruck role. Hickey showed glimpses of that last year but wasn't particularly reliable. I'll believe Longer is 1 when I see it in round 1.
I know tony74 is a genuine inside but some of his calls are ridiculous.
If a bloke is an elite ruckman in the comp - he doesnt get taken over by someone else based on summer pre-season training 'form'.
Longer needs to start by actually getting a kick an an actual game. Yet to be seen.
Hickey isn't elite, once again not comparing him to the 18 other first rucks. Gawn, Gold, Mumford, Sandi and NicNat all ahead off the top of my head. Throw in Ryder, Tippet, Martin and he is well middle of this pack. Above average but definitely not elite so can definitely be taken over. Let's not overrate our own without comparing to the standard across the competition.
And Tony74's one of the reasons this board is still relevant. Love his work, and not ridiculous as you say.
Given you're rating rucks on how many kicks they get isn't ideal...
bigcarl wrote:Hickey's endurance is pretty good going on last year. Played most of the season solo.
As a footballer Hickey's miles ahead imo. The only area that Longer may have him in is physicality, body strength, and mongrel.
Granted those are nice attributes for a ruckman, but surely pure football ability is the first thing that will get you selected.
But what is Hickey's endurance compared to Longer?
Ruck ability is the first priority for ruckmen IMO - the other stuff can come later
I reckon Hickey's a better tap ruckman than Longer along with being a better footballer by far. As I said, Longer probably is stronger and more physical, but that's about the only area in which he is ahead.
As for endurance I really don't know. Hickey rucked mostly solo last season and Longer mostly solo, with occasional help from Hickey, the season before. So I presume they are both fairly good endurance athletes.
I will introduce Jason Holmes to the debate. He is very close to the other two with a superior leap. He has only played one half of football this year, and I believe he is the only one of our ruckmen who has kicked a goal. Only Pearce on our list is taller than Jason.
perfectionist wrote:Tom Hickey can't jump and against a certain type of opponent who can, he gives away too many frees (mainly for shepherding). Billy can jump but is not as good running forward. Our approach should be "horses for courses". Some weeks we will have both, and others one or the other.
I agree with the "horses for courses" approach.
If we are playing an AFL team for premiership points it's Hickey.
Any other time, it can be Longer or Pierce or Holmes.
Macquarie Dictionary Word of the Year for 2023 "Kosi Lives"
5 disposals, 1 mark against a rookie.. Has to be one of Richo's pets (he's not the only one) otherwise we may as well play Holmes if were after pure tap work.
Hickey should be given the opportunity to fail after a good last season, surely Longer wouldn't come in based on a practice match when most players are off the boil
Longer is offering nothing around the ground, wait until he plays against Nic Nat, The way I see it he needs compete more than just for tap outs. Can we afford to carry that type of ruck?
i just don't understand how Longer could be considered ahead of Hickey after Hickey's season last year. For mine he was pushing for a position in the top 5 ruckmen of the league and looked like he had plenty of potential to improve in years to come..eg was miles off his ceiling
either he has been eating pies in the off season or it is smoke and mirrors prior to round 1
Tony / Jaxons can you please shed some light as to the thinking...interesting Tony suggested longer is 1, however Jaxons insinuated that it is still Hickey.!
borderbarry wrote:I will introduce Jason Holmes to the debate. He is very close to the other two with a superior leap. He has only played one half of football this year, and I believe he is the only one of our ruckmen who has kicked a goal. Only Pearce on our list is taller than Jason.
And Jason can jump. When it comes to getting first hands on the ball at a ball up, I'd back Holmes in against just about anyone, except maybe Nic Nat. What of Lewie Pierce? Will we see either, or both at Lavington this week?
I started with nothing and I've got most of it left!
I know we all see Longer as being more physical, but Hickey averaged 8.6 contested possessions per game last year -- which is very impressive.
I'm not sure how that compares with the other top ruckmen (but I'm pretty sure that would place him at or near the top) - but that's a valuable contribution around the ground.
borderbarry wrote:I will introduce Jason Holmes to the debate. He is very close to the other two with a superior leap. He has only played one half of football this year, and I believe he is the only one of our ruckmen who has kicked a goal. Only Pearce on our list is taller than Jason.
And Jason can jump. When it comes to getting first hands on the ball at a ball up, I'd back Holmes in against just about anyone, except maybe Nic Nat. What of Lewie Pierce? Will we see either, or both at Lavington this week?
I have had Holmes over Longer all last season - so a few of us in Holmes's court arent going to win too many friends here
I worry with Longer - he has the aggression yes but that can easily become a free kick against nightmare, and around the ground if you cant get to the contest for ball ups back and forward then aggression accounts for nought
With no third up, vertical leap is king for around the ground ball up contests so that adds a new element
A new year in 2017 & its fresh deck - the hope is that Pierce is the complete package and makes a statement this year
