Ross Lyon

[SaintPav]

People do forget that at our peak in 2009 we scored heavily and we were impossible to score against. Our ability to lock down and restrict teams was unprecedented.
Anyway, we move on.

Despite the lockdown ... the irony is -
RL's game plan didn't stop the opposition half backs from rebounding at will and running riot against us. Milburn, Enright, Shaw, Harbrow, Thomas, Harry O'Brien etc... played their best footy and were at their most damaging against us.

Complete exaggeration and wrong.

[samoht]

People do forget that at our peak in 2009 we scored heavily and we were impossible to score against. Our ability to lock down and restrict teams was unprecedented.
Anyway, we move on.

Despite the lockdown ... the irony is -
RL's game plan didn't stop the opposition half backs from rebounding at will and running riot against us. Milburn, Enright, Shaw, Harbrow, Thomas, Harry O'Brien etc... played their best footy and were at their most damaging against us.

Complete exaggeration and wrong.

Harbrow had a 40 possession games against us and about 30 in the finals? His career high possessions were against St Kilda!
Shaw, Thomas and O'Brien were consistently getting 75 plus rebounding possessions against us. Milburn at the end of his career played a sensational final against us. The opposition half backs were allowed off the chain.

[SaintPav]

People do forget that at our peak in 2009 we scored heavily and we were impossible to score against. Our ability to lock down and restrict teams was unprecedented.
Anyway, we move on.

Despite the lockdown ... the irony is -
RL's game plan didn't stop the opposition half backs from rebounding at will and running riot against us. Milburn, Enright, Shaw, Harbrow, Thomas, Harry O'Brien etc... played their best footy and were at their most damaging against us.

Complete exaggeration and wrong.

Harbrow had two 40 possession games against us in the finals. Shaw, Thomas and O'Brien were consistently getting 75 plus rebounding possessions against us. Milburn at the end of his career played a sensational final against us. The opposition half backs were allowed off the chain.

I would be surprised if Harbrow twice got 40 possessions against us but I would have to check. It's irrelevant as we beat the Dogs twice anyway.

It's a straw man argument anyway as I didn't say Lyon had the perfect game plan or was the perfect coach.

[samoht]

I would be surprised if Harbrow twice got 40 possessions against us but I would have to check. It's irrelevant as we beat the Dogs twice anyway.

It's a straw man anyway.

It's a straw lock-down.

[SaintPav]

I would be surprised if Harbrow twice got 40 possessions against us but I would have to check. It's irrelevant as we beat the Dogs twice anyway.

It's a straw man anyway.

It's a straw lock-down.

That's nice, grunt

[st.byron]

The way some people bang on about Lyon! Some people can hold a grudge or what! Imagine if they were crossed in real life.

People do forget that at our peak in 2009 we scored heavily and we were impossible to score against. Our ability to lock down and restrict teams was unprecedented.

Anyway, we move on.

I wouldn't say I hold a grudge Pav. True I don't like Lyon. Because of the way he left and his head in the sand about list development. The recruiting during his last years was appalling and he has to bear at least some responsibility for that.
But he did take us oh so close and I really thought we were going to win it in 2009. So he had something going for him.

His finals record is though, in terms of points scored in finals, very poor. And the way Freo are travelling he might just leave them with a list in worse shape than ours when he left us.

[barneyboyz]

The thing is, the argument IS NOT that Lyon didn't improve the list. He made some changes, stopped the decline and turned it around. A lot of players blossomed.


What irritates me with this conversation though is that this isn't a Mighty Ducks story... yes the list was in decline/stagnated etc but the list still had Riewoldt, Kosi, Hayes, Milne, Goddard, Dal Santo, Ball, Montagna, Fisher, Gilbert + whoever else I'm forgetting... it wasn't some rag tag ruffians from an impoverished area that he managed to turn it around with.

It was a minor rebuild.

His win/loss ratio was impressive because it wasn't bogged down the need to actually build and develop a list from scratch

Agree. Lyon wasnt terrible. Back from 2007-2009 he was almost cutting edge. But he wasnt some genius who got some list of hacks in to a GF. He had plenty of AA talent at his disposal who were at their prime. Add to that, guys like Gram and Baker were also very good players at their peaks. King and Gardi were also AA. Lyon wasnt some super-coach then. 6 years on he hasnt changed, adapted or evolved and wears his players and staff out. He is still trying to re-play the 05 Bloods GF game plan. He is absolutely done.

That's dishonest.

Swans weren't playing the press in 05. No one was.

Collapse back and press are two different things.

I remember going to the Geelong game where Baker and Johnson were going at it, 2009-10??? We started poorly but you could see the press starting to constrict the Cats. little by little, each time they tried to take it out of our 50 the press got a little tighter. The crowd and the media got caught-up in the Baker/Johnson thing, with the latter probably winning, but the real battle was won by Ross and his tactics. Yep that was a special time those couple of years, apart from the grannies I have never really thought, say for 1996-7 that we were the best side going around. Jack Steven running around that night was more than impressive too.

With all that, I think those that stayed after 2010 had some real mental scars. This with Lyon's inability to develop his side, or for want of a better word "manage" the situation provided us with the following period, as has been laid out in history. I don't know if he can coach still, or his current system is sustainable, but if two single results had of been different when he was a Saint, I'd have demanded my two boys change their names to Ross (just kidding of course)

[whiskers3614]

AND IF MY AUNTIE HAD WHISKERS...
10 years 0 flags

[Scollop]

The fact that we were so strong in h&a and yet failed at the last post proves we underperformed in finals under Ross Lyon.

Lyon arrived in late 2006. The fact remains that the Saints played off in consecutive prelims only a very short time before he became an employee.

The Saints team prior to RL was good enough to challenge and they proved as individuals and as a playing list that it was no fluke that they were contenders over consecutive years in 04 and 05.

It's the little things that we can't put a finger on and the intangibles that can help a side to become great. The team Ross inherited grew together (with the introduction of rotating captains among other things) and there was plenty of A grade talent to take us all the way. Everyone remembers the rivalry between us and Geelong in 2004-2006 and both clubs were on a par as the next contenders.

I believe the foundations for 09/10 were laid long before Ross set foot at St Kilda. I believe the team ethic and the bond between team mates that this group had developed gave Ross the head start he needed and it was the bond that was just as much the key to our successes in 09/10 as anything else.

As an employee Ross Lyon went through a lot of learning at our club and he owes a great debt to the St Kilda football club for his professional career rather than the other way around.

[Scollop]

...I think those that stayed after 2010 had some real mental scars.

And once again I think with great leadership and positivity and a desire to be creative and take risks to improcve the team we could've have rebooted and gone again in 2011 or 2012 but what we got from Ross was negativity and this speech which was given by the head coach after a loss to the Bombers early in the year in April 2011;

"We didn't have a F50 tackle to three quarter time.

Our over-handball has gone against where the game is at. It's now about using handball to create a kicker, rather than run into the next wave of defence.

Really disappointed for Nick, for our supporters.
Clearly something is going on - we introduced 5 new players tonight. We tried for some enthusiasm but it's still not kicking in.
We've been under pressure before.

This group has been to 5 Prelims and 2 GF's under me and it's a lot of Prelims ultimately falling short.

Maybe it is transition phase now. I could easily pick for honesty Jason Blake, Andrew McQualter, Robert Eddy. On the back of their honesty and discipline we have been able to manufacture a lot of wins over a long period. They have been so disciplined over a long period, people ask me why I pick those guys, they have helped create a combative team.
At the minute without Baker and Blake there are a few playing without
honesty and selflessness.

Maybe it's a full transition and rebuild. Maybe I've been in denial. Maybe we've climbed the mountain too many times and we need to regenerate.
Or alternatively we keep picking the disciplined players and try and shine with them again.
I've got to go away and contemplate and make that decision now.

We have 30 shots last week, we couldn't defend. We couldn't defend today. If you don't perform in the AFL, you become yesterday's heroes pretty quickly.

Confidence is built on action and preparation mental and physical. Those basic fabrics of team sport aren't there when they need to be.

Where the modern game is at is stopping it at centre forward and locking it in there up forward.
And yet tonight we have zero F50 tackles. None.

So what I'm saying is it's demanding and our hunger isn't there. At the moment if you want to get a kick and an uncontested mark, come and play against the Saints."


That speech made me angry

Imo it sent the wrong message to the seniors players and also showed disrespect and a total lack of faith in our youth. It not only tainted the seniors players but at the same time it gave them a superiority complex which didn't help them or the team. That was my perception.

It was a defeatist attitude and a negative speech by a coach battling his own demons who were whispering in his head that it was 'the end of an era.' I thought hang on mate. Why can't you help develop and build confidence in the youngsters and why can't the team reboot and go again in 2012?

Ross Lyon failed like so many before him but more importantly as a coach he failed dismally when it came to development of young talent which imho would have made the ultimate difference on GF day. Saints board at the time were piss weak and allowed Lyon to recruit recycled players instead of playing young blokes.

[loris]

As an employee Ross Lyon went through a lot of learning at our club and he owes a great debt to the St Kilda football club for his professional career rather than the other way around.

Very perceptive comment "Scollop".

[loris]

...I think those that stayed after 2010 had some real mental scars.

And once again I think with great leadership and positivity and a desire to be creative and take risks to improcve the team we could've have rebooted and gone again in 2011 or 2012 but what we got from Ross was negativity and this speech which was given by the head coach after a loss to the Bombers early in the year in April 2011;

"We didn't have a F50 tackle to three quarter time.

Our over-handball has gone against where the game is at. It's now about using handball to create a kicker, rather than run into the next wave of defence.

Really disappointed for Nick, for our supporters.
Clearly something is going on - we introduced 5 new players tonight. We tried for some enthusiasm but it's still not kicking in.
We've been under pressure before.

This group has been to 5 Prelims and 2 GF's under me and it's a lot of Prelims ultimately falling short.

Maybe it is transition phase now. I could easily pick for honesty Jason Blake, Andrew McQualter, Robert Eddy. On the back of their honesty and discipline we have been able to manufacture a lot of wins over a long period. They have been so disciplined over a long period, people ask me why I pick those guys, they have helped create a combative team.
At the minute without Baker and Blake there are a few playing without
honesty and selflessness.

Maybe it's a full transition and rebuild. Maybe I've been in denial. Maybe we've climbed the mountain too many times and we need to regenerate.
Or alternatively we keep picking the disciplined players and try and shine with them again.
I've got to go away and contemplate and make that decision now.

We have 30 shots last week, we couldn't defend. We couldn't defend today. If you don't perform in the AFL, you become yesterday's heroes pretty quickly.

Confidence is built on action and preparation mental and physical. Those basic fabrics of team sport aren't there when they need to be.

Where the modern game is at is stopping it at centre forward and locking it in there up forward.
And yet tonight we have zero F50 tackles. None.

So what I'm saying is it's demanding and our hunger isn't there. At the moment if you want to get a kick and an uncontested mark, come and play against the Saints."


That speech made me angry

Imo it sent the wrong message to the seniors players and also showed disrespect and a total lack of faith in our youth. It not only tainted the seniors players but at the same time it gave them a superiority complex which didn't help them or the team. That was my perception.

It was a defeatist attitude and a negative speech by a coach battling his own demons who were whispering in his head that it was 'the end of an era.' I thought hang on mate. Why can't you help develop and build confidence in the youngsters and why can't the team reboot and go again in 2012?

Ross Lyon failed like so many before him but more importantly as a coach he failed dismally when it came to development of young talent which imho would have made the ultimate difference on GF day. Saints board at the time were piss weak and allowed Lyon to recruit recycled players instead of playing young blokes.

Great post "Scollop" ............. That speech would have many Saint supporters so disappointed in him........ Easier to chase the $$$$$$, than pick up, support a fragile team and also develop and play youth, that's too much of challenge. Money and another list (Freo) in its prime were there for the taking.

[skeptic]

The way some people bang on about Lyon! Some people can hold a grudge or what! Imagine if they were crossed in real life.

People do forget that at our peak in 2009 we scored heavily and we were impossible to score against. Our ability to lock down and restrict teams was unprecedented.

Anyway, we move on.

I wouldn't say I hold a grudge Pav. True I don't like Lyon. Because of the way he left and his head in the sand about list development. The recruiting during his last years was appalling and he has to bear at least some responsibility for that.
But he did take us oh so close and I really thought we were going to win it in 2009. So he had something going for him.

His finals record is though, in terms of points scored in finals, very poor. And the way Freo are travelling he might just leave them with a list in worse shape than ours when he left us.

I pbly am guilty of that to a degree at least... Not only did do I dislike the way RL left and sunk the boots in (unfairly IMO) but he left to go to my most hated club.

All in all, I don't dislike RL and despite whatever impression I may give, the fact is that Saints have pbly played the best footy I will ever see over the 09-10 era and the only 2 times I ever thought we were pbly going to win a flag were 3/4 time in 09 GF and when Goddard goaled late vs Collingwood.

Personal feelings aside, that deserves respect.


Over time for me at least... I don't personally like the super coach image that has formed of RL. With both Freo and St.K, ppl talk about RL as if he turned trash into treasure and it bugs me. RL took good teams and turned them into great ones that fell short. He didn't take the Bombers of 2016 and take them to a GF in a year... Given what he had to work with, I don't reckon his WvL ratio is particularly imposing. That's all

[magnifisaint]

Lyon will not lead Fremantle to their first premiership. So I expect him to be sacked if he doesn't walk in 3 years time.

[Con Gorozidis]

The fact that we were so strong in h&a and yet failed at the last post proves we underperformed in finals under Ross Lyon.

Lyon arrived in late 2006. The fact remains that the Saints played off in consecutive prelims only a very short time before he became an employee.

The Saints team prior to RL was good enough to challenge and they proved as individuals and as a playing list that it was no fluke that they were contenders over consecutive years in 04 and 05.

It's the little things that we can't put a finger on and the intangibles that can help a side to become great. The team Ross inherited grew together (with the introduction of rotating captains among other things) and there was plenty of A grade talent to take us all the way. Everyone remembers the rivalry between us and Geelong in 2004-2006 and both clubs were on a par as the next contenders.

I believe the foundations for 09/10 were laid long before Ross set foot at St Kilda. I believe the team ethic and the bond between team mates that this group had developed gave Ross the head start he needed and it was the bond that was just as much the key to our successes in 09/10 as anything else.

As an employee Ross Lyon went through a lot of learning at our club and he owes a great debt to the St Kilda football club for his professional career rather than the other way around.

I am 100% with Scollop. We made Lyon look good. Not the other way around. He was simply in the right place at the right time.
10 seasons. 0 flags. Bottom 4 right here right now.

[Con Gorozidis]

...I think those that stayed after 2010 had some real mental scars.

And once again I think with great leadership and positivity and a desire to be creative and take risks to improcve the team we could've have rebooted and gone again in 2011 or 2012 but what we got from Ross was negativity and this speech which was given by the head coach after a loss to the Bombers early in the year in April 2011;

"We didn't have a F50 tackle to three quarter time.

Our over-handball has gone against where the game is at. It's now about using handball to create a kicker, rather than run into the next wave of defence.

Really disappointed for Nick, for our supporters.
Clearly something is going on - we introduced 5 new players tonight. We tried for some enthusiasm but it's still not kicking in.
We've been under pressure before.

This group has been to 5 Prelims and 2 GF's under me and it's a lot of Prelims ultimately falling short.

Maybe it is transition phase now. I could easily pick for honesty Jason Blake, Andrew McQualter, Robert Eddy. On the back of their honesty and discipline we have been able to manufacture a lot of wins over a long period. They have been so disciplined over a long period, people ask me why I pick those guys, they have helped create a combative team.
At the minute without Baker and Blake there are a few playing without
honesty and selflessness.

Maybe it's a full transition and rebuild. Maybe I've been in denial. Maybe we've climbed the mountain too many times and we need to regenerate.
Or alternatively we keep picking the disciplined players and try and shine with them again.
I've got to go away and contemplate and make that decision now.

We have 30 shots last week, we couldn't defend. We couldn't defend today. If you don't perform in the AFL, you become yesterday's heroes pretty quickly.

Confidence is built on action and preparation mental and physical. Those basic fabrics of team sport aren't there when they need to be.

Where the modern game is at is stopping it at centre forward and locking it in there up forward.
And yet tonight we have zero F50 tackles. None.

So what I'm saying is it's demanding and our hunger isn't there. At the moment if you want to get a kick and an uncontested mark, come and play against the Saints."


That speech made me angry

Imo it sent the wrong message to the seniors players and also showed disrespect and a total lack of faith in our youth. It not only tainted the seniors players but at the same time it gave them a superiority complex which didn't help them or the team. That was my perception.

It was a defeatist attitude and a negative speech by a coach battling his own demons who were whispering in his head that it was 'the end of an era.' I thought hang on mate. Why can't you help develop and build confidence in the youngsters and why can't the team reboot and go again in 2012?

Ross Lyon failed like so many before him but more importantly as a coach he failed dismally when it came to development of young talent which imho would have made the ultimate difference on GF day. Saints board at the time were piss weak and allowed Lyon to recruit recycled players instead of playing young blokes.

Funny because that speech sounds identical to where Freo are at right now.
You have to wonder what the common denominator is dont you....
RL's 5th year at the Saints = RL's 5th year at the Dockers.
He is in the exact same position....
We have to ask why....

[SaintPav]

What he did after the last game was worse than any of that.

[supersaints]

Ross who????

[hayes66]

The way some people bang on about Lyon! Some people can hold a grudge or what! Imagine if they were crossed in real life.

People do forget that at our peak in 2009 we scored heavily and we were impossible to score against. Our ability to lock down and restrict teams was unprecedented.

Anyway, we move on.

I wouldn't say I hold a grudge Pav. True I don't like Lyon. Because of the way he left and his head in the sand about list development. The recruiting during his last years was appalling and he has to bear at least some responsibility for that.
But he did take us oh so close and I really thought we were going to win it in 2009. So he had something going for him.

His finals record is though, in terms of points scored in finals, very poor. And the way Freo are travelling he might just leave them with a list in worse shape than ours when he left us.

Get very frustrated with statements like,"The recruiting doing Lyons era was appalling". Now you have an opinion but is it accurate?
Here's some facts to consider:
These are the players recruited during Ross's time that I don't think rate as appalling.
Gardiner and King.
Schneider and Ray.
Armitage and Geary.
McEvoy, Steven and Dawson.
Lynch and Stanley.
Cripps and Hutchings.
This was all done while playing finals and Grand Finals.
Were mistakes made?, yes but to say appalling is just group thinking clap trap!!

[hayes66]

I left out Demspter
So a summary of the players recruited during that time would read.
One AA Dempster.
A dual B & F winner Steven.
Duel premiership ruck men McEvoy
Four Grand Final players since 010 McEvoy, Dawson, Hutchings and Cripps.
A core player for a top four team Lynch.
And a player getting a regular game with a top four side. Stanley.
Appalling really. What's your definition of average? Eight AA's twenty premiership players???

[thejiggingsaint]

Brett Peake, Andrew Lovett, Dean Polo, Ryan Gamble, ?

[samoht]

Great post by scollop. I also agree with the sentiments of Con Gorozidis.

Where Lyon's game plan has tended to come unstuck is that it's predicated on loading up the backline - but by so doing and with everyone running defensively back and largely forgetting about what the opposition backline is doing, it can allow the opposition backline, especially the opposition half back flankers the freedom to run, rebound and create havoc. It can win you plenty of games during the season, if the teams you're playing against have mediocre half back flankers or a mediocre midfield.
But in the finals that counted - it's all about finals and grand finals, isn't it? - the opposition half back lines never failed to get a hold of us under Lyon - even if our midfield matched the opposition's, the opposition half back lines, and the freedom we were giving them, swung the game in their favour.

It's a game plan that restricts your team's forward entries and creates more forward entries for the opposition. Ok, you could flood back and defend that, if you have a fantastic backline - but it's painful to watch the opposition half backs have their way with you, time and again.

[hayes66]

Brett Peake, Andrew Lovett, Dean Polo, Ryan Gamble, ?

Oh gosh!!! There were mistakes made!!!
How dare the recruiters do that!!!
You're right. Mistakes made let's use the rating appalling!!
The good clubs don't make mistakes.

[Johnny Member]

People do forget that at our peak in 2009 we scored heavily and we were impossible to score against. Our ability to lock down and restrict teams was unprecedented.
Anyway, we move on.

Despite the lockdown ... the irony is -
RL's game plan didn't stop the opposition half backs from rebounding at will and running riot against us. Milburn, Enright, Shaw, Harbrow, Thomas, Harry O'Brien etc... played their best footy and were at their most damaging against us.

Complete exaggeration and wrong.

In our peak in 2009, no one knew what the f*** we were doing. So we totally dominated everyone really. The problem was, that once other teams understood what we were doing and devised a plan to counter it - we couldn't score.

Very similar similar to Port under Hinkley currently, and West Coast under Simpson. Both came in with styles of play that snuck under everyone's guard. But once they're understood and unlocked, they're very beatable. We might even be in this same boat too possibly after the way North shut us down last week.

Unless the coach can adapt, you're back on the pile. Lyon couldn't adapt. Still hasn't.

We still kept teams to low scores, but we couldn't score either. And ultimately, that's what cost us a premiership. Possibly two.


It's very similar to saying 'under Thomas, as our peak, we were unstoppable'. We were - but once we lost a couple of players to injury and teams started to match our intensity we were vulnerable. It doesn't mean s*** that at our peak for 10 weeks we were really good.

[Johnny Member]

Brett Peake, Andrew Lovett, Dean Polo, Ryan Gamble, ?

Oh gosh!!! There were mistakes made!!!
How dare the recruiters do that!!!
You're right. Mistakes made let's use the rating appalling!!
The good clubs don't make mistakes.

There's nothing I love more than a sarcastic, antagonistic poster.


And I love irony too.