Misconceptions about footy

[Southern Moss]

Some of the comments on this forum are about as accurate as an intoxicated ten-pin bowler. And, some posters severely overestimate their knowledge about football.

I know that because I’m one of them. In the last couple of years, while working for a football club at a state level, I discovered how many of my beliefs about footy were misguided--despite following for 35 years.

Below are a few examples. Ideally, people with more knowledge than me could refine or extend this list—partly to enhance the quality of discussion about the saints.

• For each bounce, each inside midfielder adopts a distinct role. Therefore, midfielders are not judged by the same key performance indicators. For example, the defensive inside midfielders might achieve their role but receive only 15 or so possessions. Dunstan is probably a good example.
• Players often experience a drop in form after 3 or 4 years for a variety of reasons. They receive more attention from other teams, more responsibilities from the coach, and more expectations from supporters, while the novelty also subsides. The more natural, responsible players, however, tend to thrive after this period though. Billings might be a good example.
• Supporters tend to overestimate the number of turnovers their side commits, because these turnovers are so frustrating. The kicking efficiency of St Kilda, therefore, is gravely underestimated by supporters.
• Players develop at different rates—and this rate partly varies across the roles of players. Fast, strong, outside players—such as wingman and forward pockets—sometimes develop quicker. Players that need to trust their intuition more as part of their role, such as attacking inside midfielders, rucks, and tall forwards, develop slower. Regardless, only very experienced analysts can predict success within the first few years. Indeed, often the players who look most ordinary at the beginning, like Seb Ross, Jobe Watson, Brett Ratten, and Greg Williams, tend to shine the most later.
• Spectators tend to underestimate the importance of defensive skills, besides tacking, and physical endurance. Yet both defensive skills and physical endurance tend to differentiate the best teams from other teams. This bias could explain why, for several years, Geary was one of the most respected backline players amongst footballers at the state league, but still sometimes maligned here. In two state league clubs that I saw, he was the one person that young defensive players would emulate.
• A perfect forward structure is not always perfect. Spectators prefer an open forward line, where the players often run in opposite directions, to enable the perfect lead. But these structures are not always effective. Specifically, midfield players must be more precise with their kicking, which can create hesitation and a host of other problems. If the midfield err, the opposition will tend to control the backline and then control the ball.
• In AFL, almost all players exhibit about 3 to 4 great strengths—but also as many weaknesses. Besides the top 10% of players, we need to accept these weaknesses to some extent. No team can afford players with no obvious weaknesses. The question becomes how to structure the team to minimize the effect of these weaknesses.

These examples are intended as discussion points and might still be inaccurate. But, hopefully, over time, we will, as a collective, become slightly more informed about footy, especially recent advances.

[White Winmar]

Great read, SM. Some very interesting insights. My only criticism is you failed to throw in any emotive arguments, unsubstantiated claims, confirmation bias, and most disturbingly, abuse. I look forward to your next post. May I request some analysis around those most dreadfully misunderstood concepts, the "structures and setups" and game plan, whatever that term actually means.

[ctqs]

That is all so true. I was a part-time runner for Sandy's development squad a few years ago and I thought I had a decent understanding of the game but learnt so much during that time.

[8856brother]

Edited

[Trev from the Bush]

Intelligent, knowledgeable and measured post.

What the heck are you doing on Saintsational then?

[BigMart]

I am not sure anyone doesnt understand any of that...

explain why you think Dunstan is a defensive mid

[felix]

Is that you Richo ?.

[WellardSaint]

I am not sure anyone doesnt understand any of that...

explain why you think Dunstan is a defensive mid

Jack Steven usually gets free because of guys like Dunstan doing off-the-ball blocling for him to get a clean run.

If Dunstan gets the ball, it's usually because he was the first to the right spot .
So he's defensive.

[WellardSaint]

Oops my phone sent the post twice

[lintonstreet]

Some of the comments on this forum are about as accurate as an intoxicated ten-pin bowler. And, some posters severely overestimate their knowledge about football.

I know that because I’m one of them. In the last couple of years, while working for a football club at a state level, I discovered how many of my beliefs about footy were misguided--despite following for 35 years.

Below are a few examples. Ideally, people with more knowledge than me could refine or extend this list—partly to enhance the quality of discussion about the saints.

• For each bounce, each inside midfielder adopts a distinct role. Therefore, midfielders are not judged by the same key performance indicators. For example, the defensive inside midfielders might achieve their role but receive only 15 or so possessions. Dunstan is probably a good example.
• Players often experience a drop in form after 3 or 4 years for a variety of reasons. They receive more attention from other teams, more responsibilities from the coach, and more expectations from supporters, while the novelty also subsides. The more natural, responsible players, however, tend to thrive after this period though. Billings might be a good example.
• Supporters tend to overestimate the number of turnovers their side commits, because these turnovers are so frustrating. The kicking efficiency of St Kilda, therefore, is gravely underestimated by supporters.
• Players develop at different rates—and this rate partly varies across the roles of players. Fast, strong, outside players—such as wingman and forward pockets—sometimes develop quicker. Players that need to trust their intuition more as part of their role, such as attacking inside midfielders, rucks, and tall forwards, develop slower. Regardless, only very experienced analysts can predict success within the first few years. Indeed, often the players who look most ordinary at the beginning, like Seb Ross, Jobe Watson, Brett Ratten, and Greg Williams, tend to shine the most later.
• Spectators tend to underestimate the importance of defensive skills, besides tacking, and physical endurance. Yet both defensive skills and physical endurance tend to differentiate the best teams from other teams. This bias could explain why, for several years, Geary was one of the most respected backline players amongst footballers at the state league, but still sometimes maligned here. In two state league clubs that I saw, he was the one person that young defensive players would emulate.
• A perfect forward structure is not always perfect. Spectators prefer an open forward line, where the players often run in opposite directions, to enable the perfect lead. But these structures are not always effective. Specifically, midfield players must be more precise with their kicking, which can create hesitation and a host of other problems. If the midfield err, the opposition will tend to control the backline and then control the ball.
• In AFL, almost all players exhibit about 3 to 4 great strengths—but also as many weaknesses. Besides the top 10% of players, we need to accept these weaknesses to some extent. No team can afford players with no obvious weaknesses. The question becomes how to structure the team to minimize the effect of these weaknesses.

These examples are intended as discussion points and might still be inaccurate. But, hopefully, over time, we will, as a collective, become slightly more informed about footy, especially recent advances.

+1

[Bernard Shakey]

What a positively refreshing post. Love your passion for the game!

[borderbarry]

About time we had a thoughtful post on Sainsational.

[Johnny Member]

So what you're saying is, that the average footy supporter is a total deadshit?

[supersaints]

I am not sure anyone doesnt understand any of that...

explain why you think Dunstan is a defensive mid

I'll have a go
My humble opinion is that he almost always stays on the defensive side of his apponent ( usually the opponents most attacking midfielder). He rarely goes forward in the contest unless the ball comes his way first. Its his job to make sure he blocks first use out of the center, and clears a passage when our other midfielders get in first.
I havnt seen a lot of games this year due to living interstate , and it's hard to see on the box and replays.
It's no coincidence Lenny gave him his number.
Seems to get judged rather harshly his body strength is extremely high for someone so young.

[Southern Moss]

Thanks for the support on this post everyone. And, I agree with supersaints about the role of Dunstan--but admit I am not entirely sure.

[Playon]

Thanks for the support on this post everyone. And, I agree with supersaints about the role of Dunstan--but admit I am not entirely sure.

Maybe you'll figure it out in the next 35 years

[prwilkinson]

Great stuff mossy. What about the 5th man or the spitter?

[BigMart]

What is the defensive side of the opponent at stoppage?

Goal side?

I say this because 70% of taps are 6 o'clock therefore that seems to be the offensive side.

All mids block for each other... Depending on the nature of the clearance (quadrant the ball falls to or inside or outside)
All mids are defensive
All mids are offensive
All mids block
All mids hunt
All mids have to tackle
All mids run to receive
All mids spread
All mids zone

You cannot have a mid designated to just block and not spread... A team has to win the footy. And win it back when the opposition have it.
It's not left to one player to win footy and or one to block and one to defend. It doesn't work that way.
Jack Steven is the primary ball winner but he's also the primary defender
He wins the ball most at stoppage because he has better hands, reads it better, is moving at stoppage and then he spreads harder than others... He also chases harder than others, he also gives more efforts... Often three efforts.

It's why he averages 30ppg and 6 tackles and six clearances.

Dunstan does not win enough footy in general play. He may do in the future if he drastically improved his running capability.
I would say he is the slowest mid in the AFL

[Southern Moss]

I agree with you prwilkinson that coaches now refer to many new roles.

- One role tend to be half forwards who, at clearances, also attempt to stop wingers on the outside. Again, spectators often underestimate these players because they might not seem to kick enough goals. But this role, sometimes called round-ups, is one of the most important positions on the ground especially when the opposition inside mids are dominating. Gresham might be suitable for this role in the future.
- Another underestimated role is forwards who often participate in clearances to enable midfielders to play forward. These shifts enable sides to change their game plan quickly, without the opposition able to adjust. Acres could be assigned this role in the future--sometimes called an inside slider I think.

Although I agree with BigMart, from what I have seen--and more experienced footballers can correct me--when inside mids practice, they tend to assume a very distinct role and practice this role incessantly. The benefit is that each player develops an intuition about how their teammates will behave in various settings. Obviously, if the ball falls farther from the centre, the player closest must assume all roles, such as block, tackle, receive, spread, and so forth. But, when the ball falls closer to the centre, the players tend to assume more distinct roles.

[BigMart]

the forwards you refer to are often called 5th and 6th. th push up to mid staoppages and allow the wingers to sweep or sit defensive side of the stoppage.

the link is the player that is the conduit centre forward often used to drag a defender out of the coffin or if a defender rolls back off them as a target .... players must lower their eyes and look at the link... if he has an opponent, the Deep Talls are then dangerous,

[White Winmar]

I had a coach in the 80's who had a very simple philosophy. "You've got to get the gaols, and put them through the goals", he would bellow. A genius, way ahead of his time. None of us ever worked out what he meant by it, but he certainly made us think. Mainly that he was demented.

[supersaints]

What is the defensive side of the opponent at stoppage?

Goal side?

I say this because 70% of taps are 6 o'clock therefore that seems to be the offensive side.

All mids block for each other... Depending on the nature of the clearance (quadrant the ball falls to or inside or outside)
All mids are defensive
All mids are offensive
All mids block
All mids hunt
All mids have to tackle
All mids run to receive
All mids spread
All mids zone

You cannot have a mid designated to just block and not spread... A team has to win the footy. And win it back when the opposition have it.
It's not left to one player to win footy and or one to block and one to defend. It doesn't work that way.
Jack Steven is the primary ball winner but he's also the primary defender
He wins the ball most at stoppage because he has better hands, reads it better, is moving at stoppage and then he spreads harder than others... He also chases harder than others, he also gives more efforts... Often three efforts.

It's why he averages 30ppg and 6 tackles and six clearances.

Dunstan does not win enough footy in general play. He may do in the future if he drastically improved his running capability.
I would say he is the slowest mid in the AFL

You are deliberately mis quoting the OP and myself... May be you should re- read . I believe we were both specifically referring to the role Dunstan plays at center clearances, his primary role is as quoted.

It's a given that it would differ around the ground depending on position of the ball , the opposition set up and the location of around the ground for other stoppages.

No one is questioning that the mids require all the skills, however they do posses them at differring levels. Dunstans body shape and strength lend to the job he does so well, though you seem to think he is a dud.

You consistently suggest he is the coaches pet and a plethora of the younger recruits get his position in the middle... They just havnt got the bodies for it (yet) and may never had. Dunstan would be one of the first picked like Gears.

Not sure how much Dunstan weighs and can't be bothered checking him against all the other AFL mids,





I'll take a guess and suggest that in almost every AFL team, the guy with the lower center clearance numbers ( given equal time at center bounces has the lowest numbers is thier "first choice" defensive mid....