Sliding Doors - we gave up Aaron Francis

[sunsaint]

Said the deal was our pick 5 for Carslile and pick 18. Dopes used pick 5 on Parish

If that is what he said then he is simply wrong.[/quote]
my point in this discussion the last time it went round was simply that we will never know what Essendon WOULD have done if they only had the single pick...
a few cant seem to grasp that 4 AND 5 opened up doors for them

[supersaints]

Well firstly we may still have got Gresh with out second rounder - who knows - little mids are not in vogue. And I find it hilarious that you get called "relentless" or "obsessed" just because you are consistent with your views. Unlike so many here I have the balls to put something on the line. Thats the fun of this place. These "lets wait and see what happens", "I think the club knows better than you" comments are boring as all s*** and don't create any interesting debate.

This thread was more about the clubs approach to getting into the trading game with our top picks rather than about Carlisle or Gresh. Its a reasoned argument based on Hawks approach to use all their top picks for their match winners - Roughhead, Franklin, Hodge, Rioli. Then trade in to fill gaps particularly the backline. It was a very clever approach. At the moment I think we only have two match winners - Paddy and Billings (Acres is an outside chance). I think we need more.

p.s Yes I really hope Carlisle is a bust then we won't win another flag which will be really great for me. I've got everything crossed we don't win another flag. Thats why I go to the footy and scream myself hoarse (and I'll probably cheer the loudest for Jake). People getting up on their "true supporters" pedestal make me laugh.

I think your quoting Hawthorn out of context , they traded every trust round pick from 2008 until 2015,
2008 Pick #16 Ryan Schoenmaker
2009 Pick #09 Traded for Shaun Burgoyne
2010 Pick #19 Isaac Smith
2011 Pick #24 Traded for Jack Gunston
2012 Pick #21 Traded for Brian Lake
2013 Pick #18 Traded for Ben McEvoy
2014 Pick #19 Traded for Jonathan O’Rourke

In 2015 they used their first draft pick on Ryan Burton and 2016 on Billy Hartung...
And don't forget... in 2016 Clarkson flew overseas to try to entice Carlilse to join the Hawks, instead of selecting us.

No I'm saying at Ground zero of their rebuild when they were finishing bottom or near bottom they used those high draft picks to get the real cream at the draft and could afford to be patient why they develop as that also kept them down to get more draft picks. Clarkson said they based that on the Saints Rooey era rebuild. Then they went a bit moneyball with lower draft picks that are more speculative to fill gaps. I think it was a clever combo of draft and trading. I'd prefer to be more focussed on the draft as that would keep us down a bit more as they develop and we keep getting some more high draft picks. I think we need a lot more cream to compete with some of the talent on GWS and Melbournes list. Even Dons and Carlton are stocking up on some really good talent. Everything is relative.

At ground zero Hawks plan and our current rebuild are quite similar the exception being that they were on the bottom longer than we can afford to be. They traded out players with currency just as we have this netted them additional draft picks under 25, they were
16 players out, 7 draft picks under 25 in ...
2005: Grant Birchall (14), Max Bailey (18)
Lewis (7)
2002: Luke Brennan (8)
2001: Luke Hodge (1), Daniel Elstone (20)
2000: Nick Ries (21)

Of these seven additional picks early draft picks, four would go on to become premiership players
Max Bailey, Grant Birchall, Luke Hodge and Jordan Lewis.

I hate to bring up Pelchin but I believe this was what he laid down at the Hawks and with us. Time will tell but I think we are on track. When Gresh rotates though the center next season I think he will be a gun. With Carlilse I presume that we were very difficuent down back so we needed a cornerstone

[BigMart]

Not sure Pelchin was at the Hawks when they made the decision to trade for Luke Hodge. But he does get credit for Franklin & Roughead... Which really Richmond and the Dogs should get credit for...

Pelchin isn't working in the AFL

Reason?

[Mr Magic]

Said the deal was our pick 5 for Carslile and pick 18. Dopes used pick 5 on Parish

If that is what he said then he is simply wrong.

my point in this discussion the last time it went round was simply that we will never know what Essendon WOULD have done if they only had the single pick...
a few cant seem to grasp that 4 AND 5 opened up doors for them[/quote]

Well we can speculate that had the deal for Carlisle not gone through, then Essendon would not have needed to draft a 'replacement' for him so it's likely they would have chosen someone other than Francis.
Obviously the choice Parish (being a mid) would not have been impacted by their loss of Carlisle (a KPD) and therefore it is not unreasonable to think that he was always going to be their first pick in the draft?
Surely you're not suggesting that they would have been prepared to 'risk' not getting Parish if they hadn't received our first round pick?

[supersaints]

Not sure Pelchin was at the Hawks when they made the decision to trade for Luke Hodge. But he does get credit for Franklin & Roughead... Which really Richmond and the Dogs should get credit for...

Pelchin isn't working in the AFL

Reason?

Your probably right re Hodge.. Agree Pelchin isn't working in the AFL
He apparently had issues particularly in trying to obtain more power than he should have in AFL clubs..

That being said the important bit (IMO) is to suggest he (or his group) had good "models" for recruiting to try to get a group of players who would be together from the 23 year old to 26 year old peak performance window. For all I know it could have been others driving it. That's the crucial point, there are different ways of getting that group together,

For what it's worth I certainly questioned Carlises worth, I'm hoping like hell he can become the player that the Club believes he can be.. It was a risk hopefully well placedi

[satchmo]

Pelchin isn't working in the AFL

Reason?

Because the business he is setting up encompasses more than just the AFL? The AFL seems very interested in it, but time will tell.

But really, you are starting to sound like that botox filled wig stand, whose good mate didn't have a 'no dickheads policy'. Haters gonna hate.

We get that you don't rate Pelchen, and you hate any suggestion that he might somehow get credit for something. But if you churn out the same spiel every time his name gets mentioned, it just sounds like he sacked a mate of yours too.

[Dr Spaceman]

But really, you are starting to sound like that botox filled wig stand....

[Bluthy]

At ground zero Hawks plan and our current rebuild are quite similar the exception being that they were on the bottom longer than we can afford to be. They traded out players with currency just as we have this netted them additional draft picks under 25, they were
16 players out, 7 draft picks under 25 in ...
2005: Grant Birchall (14), Max Bailey (18)
Lewis (7)
2002: Luke Brennan (8)
2001: Luke Hodge (1), Daniel Elstone (20)
2000: Nick Ries (21)

Of these seven additional picks early draft picks, four would go on to become premiership players
Max Bailey, Grant Birchall, Luke Hodge and Jordan Lewis.

I hate to bring up Pelchin but I believe this was what he laid down at the Hawks and with us. Time will tell but I think we are on track. When Gresh rotates though the center next season I think he will be a gun. With Carlilse I presume that we were very difficuent down back so we needed a cornerstone

What we can't afford is to do the rebuild half ass and end up like Richmond. Fans will hang in there if they know we are doing this properly. I still think we need more cream. I'd rather take another couple of years to hit finals and get high draft picks and set up a dynasty but Richo seems incredibly ambitious to get to finals asap. Its an easy trap to over rate your list. Some players that seem rippers with a few years under their belt just don't go to another level you expect them to. Someone like Ross is good example of that blurry zone. Seems to be becoming really good racking up big disposal numbers and you might lock him in as a class midfielder. But he could plateau where he is now - good but not great - he's still mainly a link man who plays well when Steven and Armo play well. But can he change the momentum of match? Does he have that in him to play at the highest level in the heat of grand final? Remember the two teams on the last day in Sep are chock full of extremely good players on all lines. That is where you have to be careful. You want better than really good - you want great, cream that can do the exceptional when the heat is the hottest and there is no time or space anywhere.

My worries with Carlisle is he's 200cm - that is ruckmen size. He's surprisingly agile at that height. But a lot of modern defence is about getting the ball to the deck, scrapping for it, handball, handball, handball and then rebounding. Carlisle trying to scramble from a height of 2m is tricky for him. Essendon were still trying to work out exactly what to do with him. His intercepting marks are a huge weapon but the really good teams like Hawks and Swans are very measured going into their 50 to avoid that.

Its only a wild guess but I reckon Hawks went after him as a forward maybe knowing Roughead could have further health issues putting him out and needing a tall forward. Is he going to be a swingman for us? That would be handy. We've used a first rounder and second rounder to get two very tall backmen. That is a big investment. I hope we aren't too big and lumbering with both of those on the field. I want our backline to have some serious attack bite. All premiership teams do.

Gresham has shown some great weaponry - manoeuvrability and started hitting up his passes which we were told was a strength. Still worried about his size. Both him and Steven as our core midfield worries me to mix it with mids getting bigger and bigger by the year. I'm not sure he has great burst speed like many of the smaller guys who make it in AFL do - he kind of relies more on his swerving and hip shimmies but maybe I need to see more of him.

I wish Pelchen stayed with us for a bit longer. I feel like he was an antidote to the coach and club getting too carried away too early - he seems a real long term list strategist.

[BigMart]

Yes, you're right

I didn't rate Pelchen. I'm not the only one, he was disliked by the coaches and the players in his time at the saints. The only supporters he had, were the admin, who were sold by his presentations... But didn't have to work with him... Eventually he was exited. It was not his want to leave, but it was beneficial for club and employee to end amicabley.
Players used to mock him, coaches thought he was an egotistical prick.

His grand idea of selling off stars for draft picks and a bottom up rebuild is not ground breaking.... If you believe that, you're another football following simpleton that yells BALL at the footy ever time a tackle is laid and believes whatever is fed by the media or club


We did it early 2000s, Carlton, Richmond, Hawthorn and Geelong have done it. Sometimes it works, other times no

He has little to do with our current rise... Credit there goes to
Allan Richardson
Danny Sexton
Adam Kingsley
Simon McPhee
Paul Hudson
Lindsay Gilbee
Tony Elshaug
Ameet Baines

I guess you are talking about his little STAR recruiting company. The clubs have only expressed interest if the AFL funds their involvement.
He did express interest for 3 vacant list manager roles since his departure and was given a 'no thanks'

It's funny
StK said they needed a more football centric person to run his position. Then after he left, hired Jamie Cox!

And lastly,
This little beauty... Where he put the #1 pick on the table for a combination of later first round picks and Kristian Jacksh and Jono o Rourke
Those 2 are plying their trade in the VFL and the two kids GWS recruited with the picks he wanted are yet to debut.
For Paddy McCartin and possibly Dan McKenzie
He was overruled and then given the arse


Pelchen said it would be a case of St Kilda multiplying its "draft numbers" or getting a young player who "fits our demographic in addition to a draft selection".

"It's very early days ... many of the clubs are still talking to each other and getting their ducks in a row," he said.

Pelchen said St Kilda had been talking with Greater Western Sydney's Kristian Jaksch and Jono O'Rourke and was "certainly interested in getting those boys to our club".

[saintsRrising]

- he seems a real long term list strategist.

He was. And this was his role at the Saints and Hawks where he was not on board to pick individual players.

BigMart seems confused between the role of someone whose role was drive overall list strategy (ie his role at the Saints and Hawks) and the role of staff who are there to research individual players and selections.

As a transformation agent he was never likely to stay for ever. Once the club was overhaulled he basically had little to do, unless he overhaulled us again.

[saintsRrising]

Yes, you're right



StK said they needed a more football centric person to run his position. Then after he left, hired Jamie Cox!

".

I am confused. I thought that "his position" was removed, the football department and club restructured and a different structure was put in place.

Are you of the belief that Cox has the same Job Description that Pelchen had?


Jamie Cox General Manager - Football Performance. Pretty sure that was not Pelchen's role.

Pretty sure that Jamie is there to develop the players that we have, rather than to develop strategies to build the list including recruitment etc.

A former Australian cricket selector too, Cox is confident his skill set is tailor-made for St Kilda's stage of development.

"For mine it's just a wonderful challenge at the right time and, for mine, it was also very important to come to a club which was at the stage this club's at," Cox said.


"Building a young team I think is where my skill set can be best utilised, so to come and have the opportunity to mould a young group is very exciting - I'm really honoured to be here."

St Kilda, which finished on the bottom of the ladder in 2014, has the fifth-youngest playing group in the AFL behind GWS, Gold Coast, the Bulldogs and Brisbane.

After retiring he combined a high-level administrative role at the Australian Institute of Sport with a five-year stint on the Australian selection panel. Mid-way through that stint, the 45-year-old left the AIS to take up the high-performance review at SA.


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/c ... z4Crd9B6qP
Follow us: @theage on Twitter | theageAustralia on Facebook

[satchmo]

Yes, you're right

I didn't rate Pelchen. I'm not the only one, he was disliked by the coaches and the players in his time at the saints. The only supporters he had, were the admin, who were sold by his presentations... But didn't have to work with him... Eventually he was exited. It was not his want to leave, but it was beneficial for club and employee to end amicabley.
Players used to mock him, coaches thought he was an egotistical prick.

His grand idea of selling off stars for draft picks and a bottom up rebuild is not ground breaking.... If you believe that, you're another football following simpleton that yells BALL at the footy ever time a tackle is laid and believes whatever is fed by the media or club


We did it early 2000s, Carlton, Richmond, Hawthorn and Geelong have done it. Sometimes it works, other times no

He has little to do with our current rise... Credit there goes to
Allan Richardson
Danny Sexton
Adam Kingsley
Simon McPhee
Paul Hudson
Lindsay Gilbee
Tony Elshaug
Ameet Baines

I guess you are talking about his little STAR recruiting company. The clubs have only expressed interest if the AFL funds their involvement.
He did express interest for 3 vacant list manager roles since his departure and was given a 'no thanks'

It's funny
StK said they needed a more football centric person to run his position. Then after he left, hired Jamie Cox!

And lastly,
This little beauty... Where he put the #1 pick on the table for a combination of later first round picks and Kristian Jacksh and Jono o Rourke
Those 2 are plying their trade in the VFL and the two kids GWS recruited with the picks he wanted are yet to debut.
For Paddy McCartin and possibly Dan McKenzie
He was overruled and then given the arse


Pelchen said it would be a case of St Kilda multiplying its "draft numbers" or getting a young player who "fits our demographic in addition to a draft selection".

"It's very early days ... many of the clubs are still talking to each other and getting their ducks in a row," he said.

Pelchen said St Kilda had been talking with Greater Western Sydney's Kristian Jaksch and Jono O'Rourke and was "certainly interested in getting those boys to our club".

How stupid are they at Hawthorn? They hired him twice.

Plenty of people don't like him.
He's made a very good living out of the AFL though.

Reason?

[saintsRrising]

St Kilda's drafting for many, many seasons under two coaching eras was extremely poor and arguably the worst in the AFL.

Pelchen was brought in to turn that around. Was it a solo effort? No, but the strategy was his. Pelchen was not brought in to catch the fish, he was brought in to show us how to fish.

I may be wrong but what seems to have occurred since has been a systematic rebuilding of the list and team in a manner that virtually every position of need has been covered. Furthermore after having had such very poor drafting for so long, the quality of the selections is vastly better. This includes securing on the cheap a number of very much value pick ups like Bruce, Savage, weller, Roberton. As the whole drafting team was worked over too witha mix of old and new blood, the quality of picking has gotten better and better and now our draft picks are looking good as well.

Pelchen was brought in not to personally make the picks but to bring our drafting and recruiting processes and strategies into the modern era. Is it unique? No, but the key point is that StKilda was inept prior to his arrival in this, but is now by the results we are all seeing quite good, it not excellent. What is salient is that we were not doing what we needed to prior to him arriving, but post him arriving we now are.

Was he well liked? WTF cares. What is important is that he righted what was a majorly listing recruiting ship. What is importnant that after having been a recruiting backwater for so long that we are we are now very muc at the top of the pile.

Did the recruiting staff thrive at that time? Yes. Bains was hired just prior to Pelchen arriving to look after the legal side of list management, but under Pelchen he moved heavily into the strategic and analytical side of player drafting, before outgrowing the role (though not completely as he still maintains involvement is aspects of it).

[BigMart]

Pelchen was never a recruiter at Hawthorn
Gary Buckanara
Or at StK
Tony Elshaugh

Why give him credit for talent identified?

He was responsible for the notion of trading out names for high pick or trading picks for multiple layers of multiple picks.

As it stands
We have Paddy McCartin & Dan McKenzie and not Kristian Jaksh & Jono o Rourke and picks 4&12
Imagine selling the rights to McCartin or Petracca
His theory of quantity of picks over quality is dangerous, if the top pick becomes a Riewoldt, Hodge, Cooney etc

Would you trade the rights to picks 1-5 for 2 picks 6-18

[The_President]

Doesn't the story go something like this
Saints rated Gresham the second best mid in the draft.
Once they realised they couldn't get Parish, they were happy to deal 5 for Carlisle because they were confident they'd be able to get Gresham with the next pick and White after that.

End of the day, Gresham is showing more than Francis, and given time maybe even Parish (Parish to me seems to be one of those hard running mids with sloppy skills, so not a huge loss IMO)

If Carlisle comes in next year and is also the second ruck, instead of Bruce. I reckon we win overall, another successful trade/draft.

[saintsRrising]

Pelchen was never a recruiter at Hawthorn
Gary Buckanara
Or at StK
Tony Elshaugh

Why give him credit for talent identified?

BigMart you are the only one labelling him as a recruiter at StKilda. Again that was not his role so why keep raising it?

What many including me have credit him for was turning our overall drafting performanace around and for adopting a clear strategy to build a list/team rather than just individuals.

He was responsible for the notion of trading out names for high pick or trading picks for multiple layers of multiple picks.

The team he led was responsible for many things. Overall it was to bring a lot of talent through to rebuild the list fulling knowing that a lot of it would not work, but by doing it you would end up with a good team.

Roberton, Membrey were both Free. Weller almost free as was a rookie. Bruce very cheap etc...

The Ben deal is looking very positive for us.

Swapping pick 12 and 13 effectively has gained Hickey and Wright and maybe Lee. The others had fallen by the wayside. If you look at the picks taken thereabouts like Jaksch would the club actually faired any better by keeping the picks?

so again overall we are in front if you actually look logically at what was given away for what was gained.

As it stands
We have Paddy McCartin & Dan McKenzie and not Kristian Jaksh & Jono o Rourke and picks 4&12

Again going to extremes witha trade that was never on.

Imagine selling the rights to McCartin or Petracca
His theory of quantity of picks over quality is dangerous, if the top pick becomes a Riewoldt, Hodge, Cooney etc

Would you trade the rights to picks 1-5 for 2 picks 6-18

Exactly how many very high picks were traded away under Pelchen at St Kilda? Is the answer not zero? So again "sky is falling" alarmist nonsense that did not actually take place. Post Pelchen the club following his philophosy said that they would trade pick 1 if the deal was right.

The closest he got to that was the McEvoy trade after he had played enough games to show his pros and cons, and Ben was a pick 8 and not a 1-5. The deal is looking very good for StKilda.

Yes Pelchen swapped picks in the teens. It was explained at the time that when all of our recruiters rated the potential draft talent available in that yearthey did not find a lot of difference in the likely players available at our pick, and the picks a bit later. So to them it made sense to get 2 and 3 even bites at the cherry as that doubled the chance of at least one player making it.

Drafting and trading is not a set formal that is used the same each year. It is affected by what players are available etc.



PS: The Saints recruiting team did a Pelchen and in effect traded for Carlisle and Gresham for Francis and Morgan. Again this looks to a bea good deal for te Saints.

[BigMart]

Pelchen was so invaluable at StK

Why is he gone

I have it on good authority - d**khead
Where from
People who actually worked with him.

BTW
He use pick 12, Pick 13, Pick 20
To gain a player/ lower pick
So your ZERO answer is not very correct

[BigMart]

BTW SR

He absolutely put the #1 pick on the agenda... He wanted to deal with GWS

He was overruled - and he was gone

[saintspremiers]

Remember BM trading and drafting is not perfect but our strike rate has quadrupled since 2009

[satchmo]

I have it on good authority - d**khead
Where from
People who actually worked with him.

Any of these "People who actually worked with him" actually brave enough to put their name to that?
Surely if the guy is gone, and supposedly so many people at the club thought this, then you could name at least a few people that told you this?

[BigMart]

2010

24 - Cripps - Gone
43 - Crocker - Gone
75 - Siposs - Gone

2011
20 - Ross - 50 games
20 - (Milera and Saad) - Gone
35 - Markworth - Gone
37 - Newnes - 75 games
42 - Webster - 50 games

2012
12 - Lee - 15 games (+24)
13 - Hickey - 40 games (+25)
24 - Wright - 15 games
25 - White - Gone
40 - Murdoch - 15 games
43 - Saunders - Rookie

2013
3 - Billings - 40 games
18 - Dunstan + Savage (Ben McEvoy)
19 - Acres (Upgraded from 24 Hartung)
Longer (Dal Santo)
75 - Pierce

Our drafting yes, has been better than the deplorable 2008-2010

But is that more to do with our talent identification
Because to get those picks in, we've given up
Dal Santo - RU B&F at Roos and hardly missed a game
Goddard - B&F and RU B&F and Captain played 70 games
McEvoy - Dual Premiership Ruckman
Stanley - Geelong Starting player

You would hope with the picks they bring in added to our better draft position due to finishing lower
Our drafting would improve

[BigMart]

As if I'm going to name any person who shared their view with me in private to a public forum

How would that be good for the club or the in individual(s)

I can say that I've chatted to a few people at StK and asked about him... They had nothing positive to say.
Perhaps sour grapes because he got rid of their mates
Perhaps because he was an egotistical prick
Perhaps because he gets credit for what Ameet and Trouts good work

[satchmo]

As if I'm going to name any person who shared their view with me in private to a public forum

How would that be good for the club or the in individual(s)

I can say that I've chatted to a few people at StK and asked about him... They had nothing positive to say.
Perhaps sour grapes because he got rid of their mates
Perhaps because he was an egotistical prick
Perhaps because he gets credit for what Ameet and Trouts good work

The problem is you have made statements (on many occasions) such as:
"he was disliked by the coaches and the players in his time at the saints"
"Players used to mock him, coaches thought he was an egotistical prick"
"I have it on good authority - d**khead"


To take that at face value, you (an anonymous poster on a public forum) are representing the opinions and views of all the players and coaches of the St Kilda Football Club. I don't think you have the right to do that.

As if I'm going to name any person who shared their view with me in private to a public forum

Yet you are prepared to share the opinions that they shared in those private conversations on a public forum ?

[supersaints]

Oops shouldn't have mentioned the Pelch! I've railroaded the OP topic and opened some old wounds.. Sorry

[Bluthy]

Doesn't the story go something like this
Saints rated Gresham the second best mid in the draft.
Once they realised they couldn't get Parish, they were happy to deal 5 for Carlisle because they were confident they'd be able to get Gresham with the next pick and White after that.

End of the day, Gresham is showing more than Francis, and given time maybe even Parish (Parish to me seems to be one of those hard running mids with sloppy skills, so not a huge loss IMO)

If Carlisle comes in next year and is also the second ruck, instead of Bruce. I reckon we win overall, another successful trade/draft.

That seems to be that accepted turn of events. But we know 17 other clubs didn't see it that way passing on Gresh until pick 18 and he may well have kept going down to our 2nd rounder. - we'll never know of course. But sub 180 guys haven't been taken untiil 3 rounders in recent drafts - clubs are obviously worried about how big AFL players are getting. Francis is a big unit and will take time to develop like Goddard or Acres (and he's currently injured I think). Gresham has flown out of the blocks but like Lonie and Sincs the real test for smaller guys is holding up after a couple of years of bruising AFL footy and seeing if they have the weaponary to impact AFL.