How will our key backs structure up?

[skeptic]

It's one thing that interests me quite a bit at the moment.

Many people seem to have the idea that Carlisle will be our future key back, playing on the opposition's main forward.
From what I understand, he's the type of player that can play back, take a few contested marks, and demands accountability because he has the ability to drift forward and hurt you the other way round.

Then you have Hugh Goddard that is seemingly being groomed for a CHB role ala Sam Fisher... Much more a running defender that drifts around the ground and links up.

And Luke Delaney is a player that many of us seem to have more or less written off... Decent stopper, but no offensive capability.

I wonder if we've got this wrong though...

To me, what makes the most sense is for Delaney to be the stay at home full back, and then Carlisle can play at CHB, which in my opinion is where he is more suited. This gives him more freedom to move up the ground.

This puts Goddard on a HBF, where he gets to moonlight as the third man up, a defender that plays on the weakest of the tall forwards. This maximises the potential for Hugh to be the player that damages the opposition from the backline.
It also takes pressure off Hugh to be an excellent defender at this early stage in his career.

I always thought that at his peak, this was the position that Sam Fisher excelled the most in, and that as a key back, one to one was where he got exploited the most.

Thoughts?

[Con Gorozidis]

It is a good question but I think you have really answered it.

The key will be flexibility and they will probably change it around week to week depending on the opposition.

Look at the Hawks - they generally have a very well settled back 6 or 7 - but they are all flexible and switch around a fair bit even during games.

[saynta]

Good thread with sensible well thought out comments.

[ripplug66]

Good thread with sensible well thought out comments.

So how do you think it will structure up? I don't think Delaney is much hope at all of playing unless we have injury or poor form. You have forgotten Fisher who even though he is getting old is way ahead of Delaney. I expect that Fisher will play FB and Carlisle will play CHB or visa versa depending on match ups and Goddard will occasionally play next season. There is no rush for him. Richo has shown that he doesn't really want a tall backline even when he had chances to play 3 talls. I expect our mediums like Robbo and Dempster to fill 2 other spots and then you have Webster and Geary for another couple. Injury and form will mean that doesn't happen all to often though.

[Bunk_Moreland]

Good thread with sensible well thought out comments.

So how do you think it will structure up? I don't think Delaney is much hope at all of playing unless we have injury or poor form. You have forgotten Fisher who even though he is getting old is way ahead of Delaney. I expect that Fisher will play FB and Carlisle will play CHB or visa versa depending on match ups and Goddard will occasionally play next season. There is no rush for him. Richo has shown that he doesn't really want a tall backline even when he had chances to play 3 talls. I expect our mediums like Robbo and Dempster to fill 2 other spots and then you have Webster and Geary for another couple. Injury and form will mean that doesn't happen all to often though.

Fisher FB Carlisle CHB, Goddard HBF, Dempste, rRobbo, Newnes small backs.

Delaney delisted 2016

[borderbarry]

Good thread with sensible well thought out comments.

This is Saintsational. We are not used to threads like that.

[mr six o'clock]

Good thread with sensible well thought out comments.

This is Saintsational. We are not used to threads like that.

BURP !

[To the top]

Interesting is that Gilbert can be played back at 194cm and 92kg.

Then we have Roberton (194cm 88kg), Delaney (194 97), Dempster (191 87), Fisher (191 94), Goddard (196 94) and now Carlisle (198 98), and, all things being equal, the reason Gilbert can be played elsewhere.

How they fit Carlisle, Goddard and Fisher into the side as defenders is going to be interesting - but I do not think we will see any of these players named on a back flank (where we want pace and rebound) but more likely in a back pocket given 3 attacking talls are lined up against us (and noting that we have Bruce, McCartin and Riewoldt plus Hickey pushing forward to stretch opposition defences - it would be interesting in a practice match to line our defensive players against our attacking players).

Delaney would appear a back up player - noting he had hip problems last season.

The structure of the sides we play will dictate but it should be that the ploy of the past couple of years (noting Fisher and Gilbert missing with injury) of pushing height forward and really punishing us should not now be the problem it has been.

Then, if the circumstances are dire, Bruce can be pushed back.

Unlike when we recruited Delaney, we now have options.

[Wrote for Luck]

no room for Lee in the analysis? I reckon people have written him off in their minds nearly as much as Delaney.
I only saw him once in the flesh last season in VFL but his kicking out of the back line was undeniable.
good height, pressure off him, had a full season in the VFL to work on his game. surely he'd be expected to play a part in 2016 otherwise as Rudd said; adios!
also re Carlisle and Goddard they surely make up the spine with Fisher (as posted above) back to his more effective role as roaming intercept defender.

[skeptic]

I think Lee fits better as a medium sized defender.

Given his good disposable I see him (if he makes it) as more in the Sean Dempster role. I reckon they will want him to have more run in his game and use his height as an advantage rather than as a key attribute to his position.

Fisher and Gilbert to me are not key factors. Fish is an average key defender and always has been. In my opinion he's in direct competition with Hugh for a spot (not much of a competition atm), and they should alternate.
Gilbert... Well w/o reopening that debate, he's not a player that is in my own personal plans for the team in the future. I know that's not a popular view or even a club view atm and I respect that. Just a personal opinion

[loris]

I think Lee fits better as a medium sized defender.

Given his good disposable I see him (if he makes it) as more in the Sean Dempster role. I reckon they will want him to have more run in his game and use his height as an advantage rather than as a key attribute to his position.

Fisher and Gilbert to me are not key factors. Fish is an average key defender and always has been. In my opinion he's in direct competition with Hugh for a spot (not much of a competition atm), and they should alternate.
Gilbert... Well w/o reopening that debate, he's not a player that is in my own personal plans for the team in the future. I know that's not a popular view or even a club view atm and I respect that. Just a personal opinion

And skeptic you ARE allowed that personal opinion I respect that , especially the measured manner you always present your opinions. You are a v good contributor to this site IMHO

It will be interesting to see if Lee can successfully make that transition from forward to back at AFL level and not just at VFL level.
I think the coaches etc at the Saints may see more in him than some on this site- especially when he was told to have his operation before the season finished so he could have a full pre-season training behind him. By all accounts he didn't want to finish the season early as he wanted to play in the finals with Sandy, but he was told (ordered??) to have the op.

Fisher and Gilbert, how to keep them both on the park for a full season is the big question? I'm pleased we now seem to have a number of options to cover them if they can't keep injury free. Don't think they will be around for our next tilt at finals (in the top 4) so I'm happier to see us use them sparingly throughout the season, depending on the teams we are playing and if their experience is necessary or if we are better getting games/experience into younger players.

[Trixilver]

Got no problem with Delaney back in the side myself. Not sure why everyone is so concerned about his lack of an offensive game - he's a full back. A very good one from what I've seen.

[samuraisaint]

I have heard from old St. Kilda supporters that the way Lee plays in the backline at Sandringham reminds them a bit of Bob Murray! Apparently Murray originally came to us as a forward too, but struggled as a forward at the highest level, until Alan Jeans tried him at FB. Hope it works out that way, Lee came down to my son's Auskick and he was a really nice guy.

[saynta]

I have heard from old St. Kilda supporters that the way Lee plays in the backline at Sandringham reminds them a bit of Bob Murray! Apparently Murray originally came to us as a forward too, but struggled as a forward at the highest level, until Alan Jeans tried him at FB. Hope it works out that way, Lee came down to my son's Auskick and he was a really nice guy.

I was at that game. It was against Melbourne at the MCG. Murray had been named at full forward and Howell at full back, but when the teams lined up it was the other way around.

Some thought that we must be kicking the other way

Melbourne had been premiers the year before and were, I think undefeated at the time.

We thrashed them with Bob and Verdon both starring.

It was the beginning of the end for Melbourne who have never really recovered.

[St Chris]

I still think it's unrealistic to expect 22 games at AFL level from Goddard. I think if we can get 15 quality games from him with regular breaks, his development isn't going to be hampered at all. That's a better result than him playing every week and running himself into the ground in the 2nd half of the year, risking injury and confidence issues in the process. I think his future is on the last line as a stopper, think Darren Glass. Not a spud who need to be "hidden" at full back, but I think Carlisle offers more offensively from CHB. But having 2 guys who are mobile and good footballers who can interchange certainly doesn't hurt!!

I'd love Delaney to smash this preseason and demand a spot early in 2016. He's been battling with his hip since he came to St Kilda, which seems to be completely fixed now and he's doing a full pre-season for almost the first time. He has some limitations to his game, but I think he has plenty to offer the senior side.

Fisher need to be phased out of the side - the same way we were able to with Schneider and Ray in 2015. If Fisher can retire after this year and not leave a hole in the best 18, we're travelling OK. Lee might be the key here, he doesn't have the size or the smarts to be the number 1 of 2 defender, but if he can give a contest, intercept some ball coming inside 50, and be a good distributor, he has a AFL future. Like Skeptic said earlier, Fisher never has been much of a KPD, he's much more of an offensive defender (despite not being able to kick on his left foot!!).

[ripplug66]

I still think it's unrealistic to expect 22 games at AFL level from Goddard. I think if we can get 15 quality games from him with regular breaks, his development isn't going to be hampered at all. That's a better result than him playing every week and running himself into the ground in the 2nd half of the year, risking injury and confidence issues in the process. I think his future is on the last line as a stopper, think Darren Glass. Not a spud who need to be "hidden" at full back, but I think Carlisle offers more offensively from CHB. But having 2 guys who are mobile and good footballers who can interchange certainly doesn't hurt!!

I'd love Delaney to smash this preseason and demand a spot early in 2016. He's been battling with his hip since he came to St Kilda, which seems to be completely fixed now and he's doing a full pre-season for almost the first time. He has some limitations to his game, but I think he has plenty to offer the senior side.

Fisher need to be phased out of the side - the same way we were able to with Schneider and Ray in 2015. If Fisher can retire after this year and not leave a hole in the best 18, we're travelling OK. Lee might be the key here, he doesn't have the size or the smarts to be the number 1 of 2 defender, but if he can give a contest, intercept some ball coming inside 50, and be a good distributor, he has a AFL future. Like Skeptic said earlier, Fisher never has been much of a KPD, he's much more of an offensive defender (despite not being able to kick on his left foot!!).

I reckon Fisher did well on Brown a few times. He can play KP but it was better for us he didn't.

[To the top]

Overlooked Lee at 194 and 91.

Just adds to the options - and the pressure to hold positions.

Which is all good.

Players will be chosen on match ups and on performance - so perhaps looking at the forward lines of other sides may be a good starting point - then look at the match ups to negate the skill set against us.

As I said the capacity for us the look to stretch opposition defences is vital because it means running height against us going the other way is not a factor (and will allow us to run Hickey forward to create a mis match given the presence of Bruce, McCartin and Roo (floating around at his discretion).

So, for example, NM pushing Goldstien forward will not punish us because we now have the defensive height options to keep him honest.

Then it comes to the mids, the mid sized forwards and mid sized backs to impact on the direction of the game and the opportunity (including quality) afforded to our forward line.

With Newnes, as a defender, I express some concern re his overhead spoiling capacity - as with Savage except with Savage there are also hard ball gets as an issue in my opinion.

[Animal Enclosure]

Long term I wouldn't be surprised if Goddard ends up at CHF, with Paddy the 'deep' forward & Bruce roaming around.

A lot of supporters forget how good Delaney was in 2014, he was an absolute rock in defence. His disposal is an issue however & teams drop off him when he has the ball & wait for him to turn the pill over. Hopefully that will become less of an issue as we're starting to add guys that are elite kicks around him (Webster, Roberton, Rice, etc). I don't think Keys is done for just yet.

Lee is an interesting one and I for one hope that he gets an opportunity next season to get settled into a role in defence. If he doesn't he'll be gone either by choice (back to WA) for by the club's decision. His opportunities will all rely on whether Shinner & Chips are available every week. Ideally he gets a chance to be that 3rd tall defender who can also dispose of the ball very well.

We're still the unfinished article so it's difficult to predict what our defensive set up will be in a few years time when we're back up to our necks in it. Maybe someone on our list steps up & becomes the elite rebounder that we probably still need? Maybe a FA is landed that does the job? Maybe Goddard & Carlisle become an outstanding duo down back?

Exciting times... bring on round 1!

[Con Gorozidis]

If Coughlan is any good we are set for a decade down back with Coughlan, Goddard & Carlisle.

[Bluthy]

Do you mean for the 2016 season? I think it will be another year of experimentation and rotation. I see Carlisle in that Scarlett role - being a snake (Jake the Snake - I'm going to make it a thing) that slithers around according to his own intuition striking to kill contests, take momentum swinging marks, or turning defense into attack. No surprise but I think Jake lacks maturity to be the real backline general. I see Goddard becoming that Harley type backline director of traffic . It depends who has that deep play reading footy intelligence. But Jake with his seasons under his belt should be expected to step up initially to be the man for us on the backline.

What I love is that both Goddard and Jake from what I've seen can use the ball well. So that creates a lot of flexibility in that the oppo can't just try and shut down our ball user from the back. Depending on players, you could swing Jake into a defensive role and let Hugh use the footy, or the other way around.

I think footy has got to point where a guy like Delaney who can't use the ball well out of the back is a liability. Dawson is like that. Delaney would be a handy back up on the list to put on a gorrilla if we had injuries but ideally we want all our backs to be weapons. I think Dempster will come under a lot of pressure this year. Yes he finished high in the b and f but that is often a popularity contest. I could see him sitting out a few games to rotate in some young guns.

Would we look at Goddard or Carlisle in swing man roles? Jake has made it clear that he doesn't like playing forward. It's definitely a handy thing to have up your sleeve. Imagine we are four goals down at three qtr time and we swing Jake - a guy who has kicked 8 goals in a game - to the forward line. Or likewise Goddard, a huge power unit, goes forward. Great options to have. So many of these young kids seem to have come up playing back and forward these days that we might start to see a lot more of these variable position players. Even a guy like Tommy Lee could be handy as either back or forward.

Whether that works at AFL level we'll have to see. But we have rapidly developed some real backline options with players who can use the footy well. That is very exciting.

[Con Gorozidis]

Looking at the training camp footage - Carlisle is an absolute monster. Huge bloke and athletic. I can see why the recruiters were keen. If he gets his head screwed on he could be anything.

[Bluthy]

Looking at the training camp footage - Carlisle is an absolute monster. Huge bloke and athletic. I can see why the recruiters were keen. If he gets his head screwed on he could be anything.

Clarkson's philosophy has always been that footy is mainly played on the ground so doesn't mind playing undersized backman. But both Jake the Snake and Hugh look pretty good at ground level.

[ROLS-LEE]

I think that both Jake and Goddard could spend time forward. Only proven KPF we have is Roo and now Bruce.

[MC Gusto]

Fair chance Goddard will become a forward in time I reckon

[Con Gorozidis]

Looking at the training camp footage - Carlisle is an absolute monster. Huge bloke and athletic. I can see why the recruiters were keen. If he gets his head screwed on he could be anything.

Clarkson's philosophy has always been that footy is mainly played on the ground so doesn't mind playing undersized backman. But both Jake the Snake and Hugh look pretty good at ground level.

Makes sense doesnt it. Which is also why I think height is going to be no obstacle for Gresham becoming a star.