If we deliberately play badly..

[Austinnn]

We will be fine if we were to drop a few games I do not buy the panic at all and no one yet has been able to quantify the long term benefits a win this week over Bombers will have in 5 years time

Nothing wring with understanding and using the system to your advantage and no one can tell me clubs have not done this before

I don't think anyone is "panicking". I would be disgusted if I found out that anyone of influence at StKFC was actively seeking to 'drop games' or to stop trying to win them. I would want those people out of the club. I wouldn't panic at all.

You can't quantify the winning effect, you cannot quantify the losing effect, but it exists and only a fool would argue otherwise. I'm not talking about aliens or gods or unicorns here, it's not a faith thing. Like you said you just can't accurately quantify it. You also cannot quantify the effect of moving up 1-5 places in draft order, other than retrospectively. Prove otherwise. Before you start, bear in mind you have no idea who clubs before and after us will pick yet, who we want or what the future of any one player will be.

Yes, clubs have done it before; let's start with Carlton and Melbourne, the two clubs who were proven to have done it. OK, if you don't want to do that, are you refering to Collingwood and Hawthorn? Port and West Coast? Who?

Nothing wrong with using the system to your advantage, agreed. That is why the draft is the way it is. I'm very glad to get early picks in the draft. That is using the system. But if teams all try to finish under each other to maximise their options in the future, then we may as well scrap the draft or do it lottery style. It flies in the face of the basic concept of a sporting competition and becomes something else, something I and hundreds of thousands of other football fans wouldn't support. That's not an emotive argument, that is just the nature of sport, competition. If you beat a team that doesn't try to win, how is that a win for you? But I still have problems with lying or cheating to win, which I believe invalidates your win.

In the end it comes down to if you see things in pure 'play to win' way or a 'means to an end' way. The second way is more effective, and makes sense pragmatically but is ultimately pointless.

[Austinnn]

News from Bizarro world:

From the http://www.australiantankingleague.com.au website:

Essendon have the opportunity to jump a place in the draft queue on Sunday when they take on the slumping St Kilda in what many in AFL are tipping will be a big moment in the race for Pick 1. James Hird recently said: "It's true that this is a big game for us. We've been steadily climbing the draft order all year and now we have an 8-pointer against the Saints.

"We're looking pretty good, with a few key personnel out of our 22 and a lot of inexperience coming into the side. But we have certainly got to be wary of the Saints, who have definitely got a lot of turnovers in them. They were on track to win last week, then mananged to find a way to lose; we're just hoping they are not going to be as inaccurate this weekend. Port Adelaide are right on our hammer and Melbourne have been such strong consistent tankers that I don't see us overtaking them. We've really got to make this one count."

For the Saints, this fixture looms as a potential disaster in the making after a disappointing mini-run of form stemming from the out-dated will to win of captain Nick Riewoldt and Leigh Montagna who is said to be in the dog house with the coaching staff after muddle-headedly kicking a goal in the final minute of the match against Melbourne:

"Yeah, the boys got stuck into me a bit after that game, told me that I'd cost them Parish or whatever, so I've just got to go out there on Sunday and make sure I do just enough to entertain, but certainly nothing that will end up winning us the match. I guess I'm from a time when we used to try to win, but footy changes and I've got to evolve and just hope that the young players can start learning to win once we've decided that we've had enough elite players come into the club."

The club was on track for a top 2 pick, indeed many impressed pundits marked St Kilda out for solid spoon contenders in the pre-season but the surprise early form of Jacks Lonie and Sinclair and the backman cum forward Josh Bruce, added to the whole team's short-termism caused wins against Gold Coast, Western Bulldogs, Brisbane and Melbourne, ensuring that the Seaford club has dropped two or three places in the draft order, and looks set to fall further.

Alan Richardson added "I've spoken to the boys about what we need to do as a team to make sure that some of the rubbish in our squad can be replaced with guns and we can magically start winning in a few years. Yeah, I'm disappointed in the way our season is panning out after playing so ineptly last year (27th wooden spoon season 2014), but we're still in for a juicy top 4 pick if we continue to pick and choose our moments. In reality, we're a long way behind absolutely shithouse clubs like Carlton and the Queensland boys, but I'm confident that we'll stay disciplined enough to put in a mediocre effort on Sunday, and I hope all our supporters can get down to the game and sign up to be Saints members in another sacrificial year for the club."

The Saints are looking to reverse their slump by retaining the turnover giants Sam Gilbert, Jarryn Geary and Adam Schneider in the side, but will be wary of an Essendon outfit tipped by insiders to give "roughly 70 percent". The AFL advises all matchgoers to get in early to see a big-screen feature of 10 young players tipped to go highly in the 2015 draft and hear lots of lovely words about how good their clubs will be in the future. The AFL also reminds supporters of clubs that abuse of other supporters from the same club celebrating a goal will not be tolerated:

"Everyone's got a right to celebrate a goal or a win, despite it not really being in the spirit of the modern competition, so just remember that we all want to be successful long term and leave it there." Gillon McLaughlan said this morning.

[dragit]

Did you write that Austinnn?

It's awesome!

[asiu]

It flies in the face of the basic concept of a sporting competition and becomes something else, something I and hundreds of thousands of other football fans wouldn't support.

... we do support it though ... and it's an Entertainment Business
dressed up as a sporting competition with the Quest to be top dog at seasons end.

[dragit]

You also cannot quantify the effect of moving up 1-5 places in draft order, other than retrospectively. Prove otherwise.

I imagine there would be very good data to support that higher picks are more likely to become better players
The success of picks 1-4 over picks 5-8 would be miles apart.
No guarantees each year obviously.

[Austinnn]

It flies in the face of the basic concept of a sporting competition and becomes something else, something I and hundreds of thousands of other football fans wouldn't support.

... we do support it though ... and it's an Entertainment Business
dressed up as a sporting competition with the Quest to be top dog at seasons end.

You do perhaps, like I said; I don't, and many others don't. Entertainment for me does not mean playing a game in a formation or style guaranteed to fail and therefore ensure that our recruiting manager can choose a player before his counterparts in other clubs.

I know that the Draft is broadcast live now, but I must have missed the part where that became more important than the footy season.

[asiu]

Yea ... good read.
... i was wary at first though finished not weary

[Austinnn]

Yea ... good read.
... i was wary at first though finished not weary

Nice! Thanks.

EDIT: D'oh! Now I understand what you meant. I have since corrected the offending adjective. Would you believe I wrote this while I was taking a break from a day of proof reading?!

Your post is now even better. Chapeaux!

[asiu]

are u tryn to tell me that the AFL show is not an Entertainment Business ?

[Austinnn]

Not at all, but what is entertainment for you? Looking at a ladder and watching draft night live and dreaming of the future, or watching football?

As far as "business" goes, I accept the intrusion into my football obsession, but I think it has its place. Speculation for accumulation doesn't thrill me like hearing our club song at the end of a match. Business is not entertaining even if entertaining is now a business.

[asiu]

EDIT: D'oh! Now I understand what you meant. I have since corrected the offending adjective. Would you believe I wrote this while I was taking a break from a day of proof reading?!

i would ... lol
... amazing how they sneak in , in full view ... hideously apparent.
(mum used to do a lot of proof reading)

[matrix]

just out of interest (or not)
richmond have finished 9th 181 times















and the saints 186 times
melb have finished 9th 270 times

not that it means sfa



carry on

[Austinnn]

Not sure why Richmond is so important. What will the tanking advocates do if Richmond continue their good form and actually make something out of the year? For every Tigers argument, there's a Cats/Swans counter. Why don't you ask any tigers fans not in jail if they would prefer their club to be losing most games and collecting gun players or in their current position?

[matrix]

richmond isnt important
but if you read a few posts on page one.........

[asiu]

Not at all, but what is entertainment for you? Looking at a ladder and watching draft night live and dreaming of the future, or watching football?

... at the end of the day , for me ... the only dreaming i do ,
is about serving my sentence and gettn the faaark off this rock ,
away from these self serving parasites whilst waving goodbye
to their hypocracies , deceipts , manipulations 'n propagandas.

... i am the true 'outlier' , the practicing 'n practiced 'fringe dweller'.
... i choose 1 tribe ... and one only from Prison Planet.
... and i desire my tribe to WIN the THING , coz thats what my tribe desires.
Therefore :
Whilst normally , i would passionately agree , that the means do not necessarily justify the ends , on the issue of the Sainters WINNING the THING ... i'm willing to stretch Integrity as far as the rules allow 'n then a little more for good luck .
... 'n why not !!!
every other sperm is just in the way.
... or have i misunderstood the learnings of Earth style ?

[plugger66]

It flies in the face of the basic concept of a sporting competition and becomes something else, something I and hundreds of thousands of other football fans wouldn't support.

... we do support it though ... and it's an Entertainment Business
dressed up as a sporting competition with the Quest to be top dog at seasons end.

You do perhaps, like I said; I don't, and many others don't. Entertainment for me does not mean playing a game in a formation or style guaranteed to fail and therefore ensure that our recruiting manager can choose a player before his counterparts in other clubs.

I know that the Draft is broadcast live now, but I must have missed the part where that became more important than the footy season.

Tomorrow may never come. The sad death of Phil Walsh shows that. Lets celebrate and hope we win now and not worry about November until November. Even then it is probably at least 3 years before you know if finishing 3rd last is better than 4th last. Looks like the club want to win badly considering how experienced the side is this week.

[samuraisaint]

just out of interest (or not)
richmond have finished 9th 181 times















and the saints 186 times
melb have finished 9th 270 times

not that it means sfa



carry on

Do you mean finishing position Matrix - because for a long time there was only 8 teams in the league in the early days.

[samuraisaint]

It flies in the face of the basic concept of a sporting competition and becomes something else, something I and hundreds of thousands of other football fans wouldn't support.

... we do support it though ... and it's an Entertainment Business
dressed up as a sporting competition with the Quest to be top dog at seasons end.

You do perhaps, like I said; I don't, and many others don't. Entertainment for me does not mean playing a game in a formation or style guaranteed to fail and therefore ensure that our recruiting manager can choose a player before his counterparts in other clubs.

I know that the Draft is broadcast live now, but I must have missed the part where that became more important than the footy season.

Tomorrow may never come. The sad death of Phil Walsh shows that. Lets celebrate and hope we win now and not worry about November until November. Even then it is probably at least 3 years before you know if finishing 3rd last is better than 4th last. Looks like the club want to win badly considering how experienced the side is this week.

Haven't always agreed with you Plugger, but on this sentiment you and I are in 100% agreement.

[felix]

Not at all, but what is entertainment for you? Looking at a ladder and watching draft night live and dreaming of the future, or watching football?

... at the end of the day , for me ... the only dreaming i do ,
is about serving my sentence and gettn the faaark off this rock ,
away from these self serving parasites whilst waving goodbye
to their hypocracies , deceipts , manipulations 'n propagandas.

... i am the true 'outlier' , the practicing 'n practiced 'fringe dweller'.
... i choose 1 tribe ... and one only from Prison Planet.
... and i desire my tribe to WIN the THING , coz thats what my tribe desires.
Therefore :
Whilst normally , i would passionately agree , that the means do not necessarily justify the ends , on the issue of the Sainters WINNING the THING ... i'm willing to stretch Integrity as far as the rules allow 'n then a little more for good luck .
... 'n why not !!!
every other sperm is just in the way.
... or have i misunderstood the learnings of Earth style ?

WindSister are you in prison in Tasmania or are you an Alien living in Footscray I'm not sure ......either way you are a true earthly Poet.

[asiu]

lol.

Tasmaniac by virtue of pre reincarnative choice.

'n it was that 'choice' that i bitched about before i made it , as i made it
and (as per the post that generates your enquiry) continue to bitch about ,
having made it

... not in prison , never been in prison , thank the Goddess.
... not presently in Tasmania , thank the Goddess.
... never again , thank the Goddess , will i live in Footscray ... it's colder than Tassy.
... alien ? ... how can that Be , when All Is One.
...though , home is another dimemension , thank the Goddess
... 'n ffs , may she get her sh1t together soon 'n get me back there ,
coz this place is over populated by unbearably stupid , pompous , self serving spiritual knuckleheads that'll bore me into 'n back out of insanity for purposes of simple
amusement and some Light intellectual stretching.


ps ,
thanx for supporting my madnesses with your kind words.
... hope u enjoy the read/s.
... a writer writes ... it is his nature fullfilled.

[Teflon]

Not sure why Richmond is so important. What will the tanking advocates do if Richmond continue their good form and actually make something out of the year? For every Tigers argument, there's a Cats/Swans counter. Why don't you ask any tigers fans not in jail if they would prefer their club to be losing most games and collecting gun players or in their current position?

I've done exactly that from many Tiger fan mates and family and I can assure you of 1 thing:
NONE of them want to or see any benefit in finishing 9th
Infact all of them use this long running joke to support their argument that the Tigers are the poorest performing traditional club of the last 30 years all know finishing mid table and numerous false dawns from doing so have amounted to a side that isn't a real challenger (and I'm far from convinced they are yet either btw),

So continue your delusion otherwise by all means...

[dragit]

lol.

Tasmaniac by virtue of pre reincarnative choice.

'n it was that 'choice' that i bitched about before i made it , as i made it
and (as per the post that generates your enquiry) continue to bitch about ,
having made it

... not in prison , never been in prison , thank the Goddess.
... not presently in Tasmania , thank the Goddess.
... never again , thank the Goddess , will i live in Footscray ... it's colder than Tassy.
... alien ? ... how can that Be , when All Is One.
...though , home is another dimemension , thank the Goddess
... 'n ffs , may she get her sh1t together soon 'n get me back there ,
coz this place is over populated by unbearably stupid , pompous , self serving spiritual knuckleheads that'll bore me into 'n back out of insanity for purposes of simple
amusement and some Light intellectual stretching.


ps ,
thanx for supporting my madnesses with your kind words.
... hope u enjoy the read/s.
... a writer writes ... it is his nature fullfilled.

footscray?
I thought I had to travel much further…
some kind of freycinet trek…
While a fraction disappointing in a romantic sense... I'll take it.

[Teflon]

We will be fine if we were to drop a few games I do not buy the panic at all and no one yet has been able to quantify the long term benefits a win this week over Bombers will have in 5 years time

Nothing wring with understanding and using the system to your advantage and no one can tell me clubs have not done this before

I don't think anyone is "panicking". I would be disgusted if I found out that anyone of influence at StKFC was actively seeking to 'drop games' or to stop trying to win them. I would want those people out of the club. I wouldn't panic at all.

You can't quantify the winning effect, you cannot quantify the losing effect, but it exists and only a fool would argue otherwise. I'm not talking about aliens or gods or unicorns here, it's not a faith thing. Like you said you just can't accurately quantify it. You also cannot quantify the effect of moving up 1-5 places in draft order, other than retrospectively. Prove otherwise. Before you start, bear in mind you have no idea who clubs before and after us will pick yet, who we want or what the future of any one player will be.

Yes, clubs have done it before; let's start with Carlton and Melbourne, the two clubs who were proven to have done it. OK, if you don't want to do that, are you refering to Collingwood and Hawthorn? Port and West Coast? Who?

Nothing wrong with using the system to your advantage, agreed. That is why the draft is the way it is. I'm very glad to get early picks in the draft. That is using the system. But if teams all try to finish under each other to maximise their options in the future, then we may as well scrap the draft or do it lottery style. It flies in the face of the basic concept of a sporting competition and becomes something else, something I and hundreds of thousands of other football fans wouldn't support. That's not an emotive argument, that is just the nature of sport, competition. If you beat a team that doesn't try to win, how is that a win for you? But I still have problems with lying or cheating to win, which I believe invalidates your win.

In the end it comes down to if you see things in pure 'play to win' way or a 'means to an end' way. The second way is more effective, and makes sense pragmatically but is ultimately pointless.

This post is so flawed and truly based on your emotional view of sport it's not funny yet it's paraded as fact and can not be further from the truth.
Let's play with facts for 2 things:
1 No long term benefits can be quantified from short term wins. It's not proven on that we agree
2. There are benefits from finishing lower that have been proven countless times (see N Riewoldt). Whether you like it orbit THE CURRENT SYSTEM rewards teams with a better selection choice for finishing lower. That is a fact.
This has nothing to do with stuffing that choice up - many have and continue to do so.
I am against the current system BTW and I think a bottom 5 lottery ought to remove this farce but if that's the rules they set...., I'll play by them for sure. I do recognise the benefits of the current system in a time where off field football expenditure disparity is so great between clubs.
Football is now a business. Big business and decisions go beyond the purity of the sport - is that for the good of the game? It's both but again decisions made in that context are always a means to an end, based on strategy and longer term thinking. To believe otherwise IMO is naive.

[samuraisaint]

and meanwhile - the Bulldogs after only a few years at the bottom win against a side which decided against short term wins, propelling them onto the edge of the top 4, meanwhile the Dees, a side which have been rebuilding since 2006 lost by ten goals and are still one position below us, and will probably be two places below us in 24 hours time.
I will take a win any time at the expense of an orchestrated loss.

[Teflon]

and meanwhile - the Bulldogs after a few years at the bottom win another game propelling them onto the edge of the top 4, and the Dees, a side which have been rebuilding since 2006 lost by ten goals and are still one position below us, and will probably be two places below us in 24 hours time.

And that says more about their respective clubs than it does about having a plan to use the draft to YOUR clubs benefit
I don't think the dogs threw out all their older champs/players.... Melb???
But let's ignore that hey?