I'm torn...

[stjay]

what irreparable damage will occur to St Kilda should we drop this weeks game to Melbourne EVEN if we didn't perhaps try as hard ?????

none

Is winning the most important thing for St Kilda right now?

nope

Winning is the end product of giving best effort.
Sometimes you give best effort and don't win - there's no shame in that.
But to not give your best effort is a disgrace, is corrosive and should be unacceptable to any supporter.
To suggest we shouldn't put the best team on the park, to drop guys who have earned their place, is the same as accepting not giving our best effort.
Membership & sponsorship money is correlated with winning.
Money is something the club is in desperate short supply of.

No-one thinks the season or the future hangs off one result, just as a future flag is not going to be determined by one draft pick in a year.
The draft is a lottery even at the pointy end. You would need to be around the bottom for years to ensure long term quality came into the club.
And for that, the end would defintely not justify the means - you will potentially sink the club in the process.

Losing your way to success is a totally asinine notion.

[Finna]

There are lots of ways to not try as hard that don't involve players so that impact is zilch
I agree there are absolutely no impacts on the club in future at all from dropping this game so meh get the picks
I've never said lose all games - that's you lying again (drink does that). In fact some wins mean more eg the Dogscome from behind was worth it.... anything against Collingwood grab it.... Actually, any current top 8 side but that won't happen so we come back to reality....
What do we get from beating up lowly Brisbane??? Not much
I think wins overall short term are overrated so some fans feel better all alone on Sunday nights
I doubt you've bee involved in a club period - that involves human interaction which I'm tipping ain't a strong suit

I tell you what we got from beating a lowly Brisbane......My 9 year old son who was convinced by his Grandfather to follow the Blues last year came to the Brisbane game with me two weeks ago. We don't get too many chances to go to Saints games living in QLD.

He loved it, got a SAINTS jumper and asked me to sign him up as a member. He can't wait till we are in Melbourne in a few weeks to go watch the Saints and wants to go to training so he can get his jumper signed!

That win got us a supporter, just like the Melbourne win this week might do as well.

[Finna]

Teflon, do you want us to beat Melbourne on Sunday?

Yes or no?

Pav I don't ever want to lose to anyone ever but I do want the best possible chance to bring talent into our side so that we can compete with the best, so for me to achieve that short term we will need to drop some games. Right now the draft is still one of the best chances at doing that and it's the system that rewards a lower finish. Thems facts.
But if it is the difference between securing a top 5 pick for our club right now versus pick 6 or 7 (depending on who finished where), I'm not fussed if we drop a game or 2 along the way
If that's Melbourne so be it
I don't want that but you can't always have what you want they tell me..

Do you think a loss to Melbourne this week will set us back a decade?
If a loss to Melbourne meant dropping to pick 6 or 7 (over a top 5 pick 5) would you really care?

No but they are rhetoric questions.

They are simple questions
Would you prefer to win against Melbourne and drop 1 or 2 places with our pick or not?

Why are they the choices? It could play out any number of ways.

I'd rather beat Melbourne and end up where we're supposed to end up and to paraphrase Marcus Aurelius, we should just accept the fate which binds us...

It takes courage to say what you really think Pav but I'm a realist and understand not all are equal in the spine department so I won't hold it against you for squibbing it on this one.... but I get the feeling if we drop to the Dees by 9 pts you'll be relieved..

That aside, you'll excuse me in future for not answering any questions you might put up

Funny stuff Mate. To think that being able to say what you really think on a fan forum defines courage.....

[plugger66]

There are lots of ways to not try as hard that don't involve players so that impact is zilch
I agree there are absolutely no impacts on the club in future at all from dropping this game so meh get the picks
I've never said lose all games - that's you lying again (drink does that). In fact some wins mean more eg the Dogscome from behind was worth it.... anything against Collingwood grab it.... Actually, any current top 8 side but that won't happen so we come back to reality....
What do we get from beating up lowly Brisbane??? Not much
I think wins overall short term are overrated so some fans feel better all alone on Sunday nights
I doubt you've bee involved in a club period - that involves human interaction which I'm tipping ain't a strong suit

Nice with the personal comments again Teffers. Do you lack the skill to keep it friendly? And ive been a life member of my local club for 10 years and our family won the John Moran award for the saints. Look it up and then say sorry. Now back on topic. No you may never have said lose every game but at least 50 times you have told us about the system and the need to get the best pick.2 and 2 equals 4 and to get the best pick we must lose every game but as usual you haven't got the courage to say that on here and you want to win some random games for some silly reason. Never heard so much rot. And yes I wont apologise for feeling better after a win. That's what the game is all about. As ive said many times you may as well fast forward years until you are finally happy with the picks we have. What a waste of footy seasons with that attitude.

[samuraisaint]

Moot point. We don't have the talent or depth to beat anyone mid table or above anyway. Surprised we beat Lions and Suns. We'll win this week, could beat the Doggies again, although they'll be ready for us this time, hopefully thrash Essendon, although they do seem to get lucky against us, and that might be it. We are an outside chance against the Giants, and 50/50 at the G against Melbourne. But anyone who thinks we'll win more than 50% of these games is deluded. If we manage to win 6 games that is three times what most of us expected. And as for a percentage in the 80s; dream on. After the final 6 (maybe 8) rounds we will br lucky if it is still in the mid 70s.

[plugger66]

I will be happy with 6 wins, a % above 80 and 4th pick in the draft.
Nice balance .

Has a nice ring to it con.....

I'll also be happy with 6 wins percentage in the 80's and whatever picks we end up with

Just add to that.... Pick inside top 5.... And I'm with you

Look I'm not greedy but I'm thinking we desperately need some mid guns - this years draft supposedly has some...

Having picks like Riewoldt (1), Kosi (2), Ball (2?), X Clarke (5), Goddard (1 ...thanks Blues) certainly didn't hurt our last decade that's what I'm after .... We haven't got anywhere near that talent yet and I think we are going to need to if we are to challenge GWS and co in future

Draft hard time folks

The difference is neither of those 2 people are hoping we will lose games. They just think we will win about 6 games. Seems about the right number based on form and who we play. If we won our last 12 I don't think either person would be upset. You would be though because you want us to get the best possible pick and that means losing our last 12.

[plugger66]

Moot point. We don't have the talent or depth to beat anyone mid table or above anyway. Surprised we beat Lions and Suns. We'll win this week, could beat the Doggies again, although they'll be ready for us this time, hopefully thrash Essendon, although they do seem to get lucky against us, and that might be it. We are an outside chance against the Giants, and 50/50 at the G against Melbourne. But anyone who thinks we'll win more than 50% of these games is deluded. If we manage to win 6 games that is three times what most of us expected. And as for a percentage in the 80s; dream on. After the final 6 (maybe 8) rounds we will br lucky if it is still in the mid 70s.

I don't get your point. This is about trying to win every game or trying to lose every game even though teffers hasn't got the courage to say that. He wants the best possible pick and also to somehow win random games which isn't possible. its one or the other. I want to win every game. I think we may win to or 3 more. That's great but if a miracle occurred and we won 6 games I wont be pissed if we finished 11th. And yes I know it wont happen. Unlike you I cant see how you can even say we will win this week.

[saynta]

Moot point. We don't have the talent or depth to beat anyone mid table or above anyway. Surprised we beat Lions and Suns. We'll win this week, could beat the Doggies again, although they'll be ready for us this time, hopefully thrash Essendon, although they do seem to get lucky against us, and that might be it. We are an outside chance against the Giants, and 50/50 at the G against Melbourne. But anyone who thinks we'll win more than 50% of these games is deluded. If we manage to win 6 games that is three times what most of us expected. And as for a percentage in the 80s; dream on. After the final 6 (maybe 8) rounds we will br lucky if it is still in the mid 70s.

Speak for yourself. I nominated 7 wins and got laughed at, but I'm still sticking with 7.

[Teflon]

You're dogmatic, I'll give you that.

Thanks

LOL...I wasn't going to say anything, but...

I'm of the firm view being dogmatic is a Christian virtue.... hang with me brother I have much to teach you
Next stop: courage and conviction....

That's interesting.

Are cheating and dishonesty Christian virtues too?

Yes, actually but that's a different topic
I align to the Marx bros theory "these are my principles, if you don't like them....... I have others!!"
You Christian Pav?
Still no ideas from you on how we can bring top line talent into the club other than finish 9th...

[Teflon]

Let me ask you SR:

Is winning St Kildas highest priority right now????

You have a short memory.

As I have posted earlier in the thread the the most important thing now, and always, is to build a culture of winning.

That is how you improve and build success. Build the right culture and the lesser lights grow and bloom.

Tanking builds a culture of losing, of embracing failure.


None of the recent premiership teams have been built on a raft of early draft picks. None (Though GWS may be the first). They have all however had in a common a culture of success.

And if you are lusting after emulating GWS, then dream on as the Saints will never be able to stockpile the same number of earl;y picks that GWS were given, and then magnified with more trades. Trying to ape their strategy is doomed to failure.

You live in fantasy land with more corporate cliched clap trap on "most important thing is to build a culture of success"
Honestly just listen to yourself?
I'm sure Richmond have thought they are building a culture of success finishing 9th every year - go ask them bout your "culture of success"
You build a culture of success on field - you do that FIRSt through talent.
You and GT should get a corporate room...

[Teflon]

I will be happy with 6 wins, a % above 80 and 4th pick in the draft.
Nice balance .

Has a nice ring to it con.....

I'll also be happy with 6 wins percentage in the 80's and whatever picks we end up with

Just add to that.... Pick inside top 5.... And I'm with you

Look I'm not greedy but I'm thinking we desperately need some mid guns - this years draft supposedly has some...

Having picks like Riewoldt (1), Kosi (2), Ball (2?), X Clarke (5), Goddard (1 ...thanks Blues) certainly didn't hurt our last decade that's what I'm after .... We haven't got anywhere near that talent yet and I think we are going to need to if we are to challenge GWS and co in future

Draft hard time folks

The difference is neither of those 2 people are hoping we will lose games. They just think we will win about 6 games. Seems about the right number based on form and who we play. If we won our last 12 I don't think either person would be upset. You would be though because you want us to get the best possible pick and that means losing our last 12.

No the difference is many on here won't say it
I will
To win long term we'll need to drop a few and that's ok
Man up, take the pain now with a view to bigger things later
OR
Are you advocating we finish 9th?? Is that what you want?
And when our ageing stars (playing good footy now but gone in 3 years go)
You'll be happy to see us plummet again??
Grow a pair and answer this
Are you happy for us to finish 9th this year??

[Teflon]

There are lots of ways to not try as hard that don't involve players so that impact is zilch
I agree there are absolutely no impacts on the club in future at all from dropping this game so meh get the picks
I've never said lose all games - that's you lying again (drink does that). In fact some wins mean more eg the Dogscome from behind was worth it.... anything against Collingwood grab it.... Actually, any current top 8 side but that won't happen so we come back to reality....
What do we get from beating up lowly Brisbane??? Not muc
I think wins overall short term are overrated so some fans feel better all alone on Sunday nights
I doubt you've bee involved in a club period - that involves human interaction which I'm tipping ain't a strong suit

Nice with the personal comments again Teffers. Do you lack the skill to keep it friendly? And ive been a life member of my local club for 10 years and our family won the John Moran award for the saints. Look it up and then say sorry. Now back on topic. No you may never have said lose every game but at least 50 times you have told us about the system and the need to get the best pick.2 and 2 equals 4 and to get the best pick we must lose every game but as usual you haven't got the courage to say that on here and you want to win some random games for some silly reason. Never heard so much rot. And yes I wont apologise for feeling better after a win. That's what the game is all about. As ive said many times you may as well fast forward years until you are finally happy with the picks we have. What a waste of footy seasons with that attitude.

Could not give a toss about awards and after reading your attacks on many here for a long time it'll be a cold day in hell before any apology comes for you
Toughen up precious but thanks finally admitting you made up I said I want us losing every game that's big of you
I've got your view now - it's all about you having wins now so u feel good Sunday night , hang the fact the club needs to bring in more talent to be a genuine threat
Supporters like you who are all about your instant need for gratification are why we have 1 flag in100+ years
Sad

[Teflon]

Teflon, do you want us to beat Melbourne on Sunday?

Yes or no?

Pav I don't ever want to lose to anyone ever but I do want the best possible chance to bring talent into our side so that we can compete with the best, so for me to achieve that short term we will need to drop some games. Right now the draft is still one of the best chances at doing that and it's the system that rewards a lower finish. Thems facts.
But if it is the difference between securing a top 5 pick for our club right now versus pick 6 or 7 (depending on who finished where), I'm not fussed if we drop a game or 2 along the way
If that's Melbourne so be it
I don't want that but you can't always have what you want they tell me..

Do you think a loss to Melbourne this week will set us back a decade?
If a loss to Melbourne meant dropping to pick 6 or 7 (over a top 5 pick 5) would you really care?

No but they are rhetoric questions.

They are simple questions
Would you prefer to win against Melbourne and drop 1 or 2 places with our pick or not?

Why are they the choices? It could play out any number of ways.

I'd rather beat Melbourne and end up where we're supposed to end up and to paraphrase Marcus Aurelius, we should just accept the fate which binds us...

It takes courage to say what you really think Pav but I'm a realist and understand not all are equal in the spine department so I won't hold it against you for squibbing it on this one.... but I get the feeling if we drop to the Dees by 9 pts you'll be relieved..

That aside, you'll excuse me in future for not answering any questions you might put up

Funny stuff Mate. To think that being able to say what you really think on a fan forum defines courage.....

There is irony in that
Of course it doesn't but courage gets thrown round here by many and I don't see you espousing the same view to others... want to be liked or scared?
You catch on quick

[Teflon]

There are lots of ways to not try as hard that don't involve players so that impact is zilch
I agree there are absolutely no impacts on the club in future at all from dropping this game so meh get the picks
I've never said lose all games - that's you lying again (drink does that). In fact some wins mean more eg the Dogscome from behind was worth it.... anything against Collingwood grab it.... Actually, any current top 8 side but that won't happen so we come back to reality....
What do we get from beating up lowly Brisbane??? Not much
I think wins overall short term are overrated so some fans feel better all alone on Sunday nights
I doubt you've bee involved in a club period - that involves human interaction which I'm tipping ain't a strong suit

I tell you what we got from beating a lowly Brisbane......My 9 year old son who was convinced by his Grandfather to follow the Blues last year came to the Brisbane game with me two weeks ago. We don't get too many chances to go to Saints games living in QLD.

He loved it, got a SAINTS jumper and asked me to sign him up as a member. He can't wait till we are in Melbourne in a few weeks to go watch the Saints and wants to go to training so he can get his jumper signed!

That win got us a supporter, just like the Melbourne win this week might do as well.

That's great
My 9 yr old likes footy, then soccer, then air guitar it sortof rotates kids are kids big deal usually the determination of who they follow ain't off the back of 1 game.... It's parents /friends influence most of the time
Nice story though - just imagine how he'll feel when we the flag having drafted the next Buddy cause we managed a top 5 pick 2015!!

[Teflon]

what irreparable damage will occur to St Kilda should we drop this weeks game to Melbourne EVEN if we didn't perhaps try as hard ?????

none

Is winning the most important thing for St Kilda right now?

nope

Winning is the end product of giving best effort.
Sometimes you give best effort and don't win - there's no shame in that.
But to not give your best effort is a disgrace, is corrosive and should be unacceptable to any supporter.
To suggest we shouldn't put the best team on the park, to drop guys who have earned their place, is the same as accepting not giving our best effort.
Membership & sponsorship money is correlated with winning.
Money is something the club is in desperate short supply of.

No-one thinks the season or the future hangs off one result, just as a future flag is not going to be determined by one draft pick in a year.
The draft is a lottery even at the pointy end. You would need to be around the bottom for years to ensure long term quality came into the club.
And for that, the end would defintely not justify the means - you will potentially sink the club in the process.

Losing your way to success is a totally asinine notion.

So you want us to finish 9th is that what you want?
And when our older players go over next 3 years you want us down the bottom again?
Rest is hysterics really

[The Fireman]

some nice juicy draft picks please

[Teflon]

what irreparable damage will occur to St Kilda should we drop this weeks game to Melbourne EVEN if we didn't perhaps try as hard ?????

none

Is winning the most important thing for St Kilda right now?

nope

Winning is the end product of giving best effort.
Sometimes you give best effort and don't win - there's no shame in that.
But to not give your best effort is a disgrace, is corrosive and should be unacceptable to any supporter.
To suggest we shouldn't put the best team on the park, to drop guys who have earned their place, is the same as accepting not giving our best effort.
Membership & sponsorship money is correlated with winning.
Money is something the club is in desperate short supply of.

No-one thinks the season or the future hangs off one result, just as a future flag is not going to be determined by one draft pick in a year.
The draft is a lottery even at the pointy end. You would need to be around the bottom for years to ensure long term quality came into the club.
And for that, the end would defintely not justify the means - you will potentially sink the club in the process.

Losing your way to success is a totally asinine notion.

So you want us to finish 9th is that what you want?
And when our older players go over next 3 years you want us down the bottom again?
Rest is hysterics really

[saintsRrising]

Let me ask you SR:

Is winning St Kildas highest priority right now????

You have a short memory.

As I have posted earlier in the thread the the most important thing now, and always, is to build a culture of winning.

That is how you improve and build success. Build the right culture and the lesser lights grow and bloom.

Tanking builds a culture of losing, of embracing failure.


None of the recent premiership teams have been built on a raft of early draft picks. None (Though GWS may be the first). They have all however had in a common a culture of success.

And if you are lusting after emulating GWS, then dream on as the Saints will never be able to stockpile the same number of earl;y picks that GWS were given, and then magnified with more trades. Trying to ape their strategy is doomed to failure.

You live in fantasy land with more corporate cliched clap trap on "most important thing is to build a culture of success"
Honestly just listen to yourself?
I'm sure Richmond have thought they are building a culture of success finishing 9th every year - go ask them bout your "culture of success"
You build a culture of success on field - you do that FIRSt through talent.
You and GT should get a corporate room...

No I am in the real world. You have had post after post railing on that we need a low pick to get the next Roo. Whereas in the real world the real Roo would run into brick walls before he would tank a game.

Explain to me how you can get Roo to tank? Explain to me why Roo would think it a good deal?

[Old Mate]

10/10 thread would post in it again

[Bunk_Moreland]

what irreparable damage will occur to St Kilda should we drop this weeks game to Melbourne EVEN if we didn't perhaps try as hard ?????

none

Is winning the most important thing for St Kilda right now?

nope

Winning is the end product of giving best effort.
Sometimes you give best effort and don't win - there's no shame in that.
But to not give your best effort is a disgrace, is corrosive and should be unacceptable to any supporter.
To suggest we shouldn't put the best team on the park, to drop guys who have earned their place, is the same as accepting not giving our best effort.
Membership & sponsorship money is correlated with winning.
Money is something the club is in desperate short supply of.

No-one thinks the season or the future hangs off one result, just as a future flag is not going to be determined by one draft pick in a year.
The draft is a lottery even at the pointy end. You would need to be around the bottom for years to ensure long term quality came into the club.
And for that, the end would defintely not justify the means - you will potentially sink the club in the process.

Losing your way to success is a totally asinine notion.

So you want us to finish 9th is that what you want?
And when our older players go over next 3 years you want us down the bottom again?
Rest is hysterics really

If we finished 9th, I would be very happy. It means our rebuild is way ahead of schedule. It means we are winning plenty of games and creating a winning culture

We would still get a good player (Armo was pick 9 so was MacEvoy), would go for a high quality FA, maybe trade in another key player or two.

9th this year with the heaps of improvement in the kids to come, not to mention the development of McCartin and Goddard, barely sighted in the seniors yet, would mean a top eight spot in 2016.

You might not like seeing the Saints in finals, but I and other supporters would love it.

You way, getting a pick a couple of places higher guarantees what exactly?

[The Fireman]

10/10 thread would post in it again

[gringo]

I will be happy with 6 wins, a % above 80 and 4th pick in the draft.
Nice balance .

Has a nice ring to it con.....

I'll also be happy with 6 wins percentage in the 80's and whatever picks we end up with

Just add to that.... Pick inside top 5.... And I'm with you

Look I'm not greedy but I'm thinking we desperately need some mid guns - this years draft supposedly has some...

Having picks like Riewoldt (1), Kosi (2), Ball (2?), X Clarke (5), Goddard (1 ...thanks Blues) certainly didn't hurt our last decade that's what I'm after .... We haven't got anywhere near that talent yet and I think we are going to need to if we are to challenge GWS and co in future

Draft hard time folks

The difference is neither of those 2 people are hoping we will lose games. They just think we will win about 6 games. Seems about the right number based on form and who we play. If we won our last 12 I don't think either person would be upset. You would be though because you want us to get the best possible pick and that means losing our last 12.

No the difference is many on here won't say it
I will
To win long term we'll need to drop a few and that's ok
Man up, take the pain now with a view to bigger things later
OR
Are you advocating we finish 9th?? Is that what you want?
And when our ageing stars (playing good footy now but gone in 3 years go)
You'll be happy to see us plummet again??
Grow a pair and answer this
Are you happy for us to finish 9th this year??

To me I'm not advocating anything. It's natural selection that teams with a lot of kids will lose a larger percentage than they win. I enjoy footy more when we are competitive and it makes me turn up even when it's miserable weather. I don't think we are going to finish ninth even if we wanted to so to get desperate for us to lose is a pointless exercise IMO. We do a good job of it trying to win. It may actually get worse if we lose a few more seniors next year and we might even finish last so might as well enjoy the kids playing their guts out and getting a the odd win while it's there.

[SaintPav]

You're dogmatic, I'll give you that.

Thanks

LOL...I wasn't going to say anything, but...

I'm of the firm view being dogmatic is a Christian virtue.... hang with me brother I have much to teach you
Next stop: courage and conviction....

That's interesting.

Are cheating and dishonesty Christian virtues too?

Yes, actually but that's a different topic
I align to the Marx bros theory "these are my principles, if you don't like them....... I have others!!"
You Christian Pav?
Still no ideas from you on how we can bring top line talent into the club other than finish 9th...

I suppose tanking and fraud are virtues as well!

I prefer open mindedness than intolerant dogma and ideology.

Pick no 4 is better than pick 5.

Go hard in the draft.

You're a profound poster, Teflon.

lol.

[plugger66]

I will be happy with 6 wins, a % above 80 and 4th pick in the draft.
Nice balance .

Has a nice ring to it con.....

I'll also be happy with 6 wins percentage in the 80's and whatever picks we end up with

Just add to that.... Pick inside top 5.... And I'm with you

Look I'm not greedy but I'm thinking we desperately need some mid guns - this years draft supposedly has some...

Having picks like Riewoldt (1), Kosi (2), Ball (2?), X Clarke (5), Goddard (1 ...thanks Blues) certainly didn't hurt our last decade that's what I'm after .... We haven't got anywhere near that talent yet and I think we are going to need to if we are to challenge GWS and co in future

Draft hard time folks

The difference is neither of those 2 people are hoping we will lose games. They just think we will win about 6 games. Seems about the right number based on form and who we play. If we won our last 12 I don't think either person would be upset. You would be though because you want us to get the best possible pick and that means losing our last 12.

No the difference is many on here won't say it
I will
To win long term we'll need to drop a few and that's ok
Man up, take the pain now with a view to bigger things later
OR
Are you advocating we finish 9th?? Is that what you want?
And when our ageing stars (playing good footy now but gone in 3 years go)
You'll be happy to see us plummet again??
Grow a pair and answer this
Are you happy for us to finish 9th this year??

I would love to finish 9th this year. Surely every true saints supporter would. It would mean winning around 9 of our last 12. Considering the fixture that would mean beating some very good sides. It would show the rebuild has well and truly started. It isn't going to happen though. We may win 3 at the most. The other option apart from trying to win every game is to lose every game or lose most but win some random game because it means something to you. That's weird in itself. The problem with winning some random game is goes against what you have said about 50 times that the system rewards you the lower you finish so at the moment winning isn't important. Of course unless its some random game that suits Teffers. And you have also said we need to finish as low as possible next year. What happens in 2017. Do you think we suddenly go from 16th to 6th. It wont happen. We will still finish in the bottom 6. You really must have been pissed off when we won a few late in 2003. We got a worse draft pick. But it did lead to winning our first 10 in 2004. Players got confidence. You would have wanted draft picks.

As for the personal stuff when did I say I want you to apologise. I said it shows how weak either you are or your argument. Very weak matter of fact. This thread also shows the inconsistency of moderating but that's another story.

[Teflon]

.

Having picks like Riewoldt (1), Kosi (2), Ball (2?), X Clarke (5), Goddard (1 ...thanks Blues) certainly didn't hurt our last decade that's what I'm after .... We haven't got anywhere near that talent yet and I think we are going to need to if we are to challenge GWS and co in future

Draft hard time folks

You do realise that the GT Mantra back then was 100% effort 100% of the time?

ie a culture of winning.

Those draft picks were but part of the reason for the rise up the ladder. The final nudge came under Lyon with better coaching and a cast of role players and rejects from other clubs.

The Blues by contrast had more No1 picks, and brought in a superstar in Judd, but were a lot less successful. They tanked, everyone new they tanked and a culture of half hearted players was endorsed.

Are you saying the main part for the rise was GT belief clouds and these draft picks were mere bit players??
Umm... Ok.... I love re writing history too