I'm torn...

[samuraisaint]

For people like Bunk and a few others, I thought I would re-post my OP. With all the hysteria going on I thought the best way to shut them all up was simply to copy and paste so all can see that there was nothing in my post saying I want the Saints to lose. To those that don't believe me please re-read.........

by citywest » Sun 31 May 2015 10:47am
My heart says I want St Kilda to win today but my head says otherwise. If we win today we go to 12 points and may well end up winning 6 to 8 games for the year (which would be great mind you). However, with the future in mind, it may be better in the long run if we play really well today, have no injuries and lose by 9 points. I just listened to Callum Twomey and Nat Edwards on the "Road To The Draft" and I really want the Saints to have pick 3 or pick 2. Not pick 1 obviously because 27 wooden spoons is more than enough.

We will finish third last and get pick 3. Melbourne have an easier finish to the season than us, and are on the same number of wins as us atm. Gold Coast have a lot more talent than we do on our list, but due to club suspensions of guys playing up thay haven't been able to settle. I expect them to finish with one more win than us, or at least the same number but with a sperior percentage. Our % will take a beating from the final 6 rounds.

Carltank and Brions are anchored down, I suspect.

[The Fireman]

And we're all waiting for that list of teams who spent three or more years at or near the bottom and leveraged that into a flag. The way you guys are carrying on there must be heaps of examples. But I can't think of one.

If you can't see that the AFL is not an even playing field and we lack the flag opportunities of Haw, Syd, WC, Coll, Gee then I can't help you.

So no example then?

Examples aside do you not see the greater potential of higher picks...can't believe I'm doing this.

[samuraisaint]

For the younger players it would be great to beat the Dees next week, and then follow up with a win over Essendon. We could beat the Doggies, but they will be ready for us this time. Apart from Melbourne at the G, I can't see us realistically beating anybody else. And we are no good in the wintry conditions, so that game looks unlikely too.

[Old Mate]

And we're all waiting for that list of teams who spent three or more years at or near the bottom and leveraged that into a flag. The way you guys are carrying on there must be heaps of examples. But I can't think of one.

If you can't see that the AFL is not an even playing field and we lack the flag opportunities of Haw, Syd, WC, Coll, Gee then I can't help you.

So no example then?

Your closed question means Jack in the scheme of building a list and only shows a simplistic view.

The teams you are alluding to that buck the bottoming out trend have something in common: money and power. Some are financially backed independently others are / have been an AFL priority therefor given greater concessions.

We must prioritise the draft and rely on bringing in talent that way more so than some other clubs.

I wonder why the AFL are starting to back the issue of equalisation after added pressure from clubs?

[bigcarl]

I can't come at tanking. Apart from it being against the rules and contrary to the spirit of the game, it is no fun for supporters.

Playing to lose can never be a good thing.

We should win whenever we can and take the best available talent in the drafts.

We're good at finding bargains going on recent efforts such as Sinclair, Dmac and Lonie. We should aim to become even better.

We should develop these kids better than anyone else does.

We've got a lot of talent coming through and I reckon sometime next season competition for spots will reach critical mass. Then we're ready to soar.

In any case, having a No. 1 pick doesn't guarantee you a champion. Ask any Demons supporter how Jack Watts is going.

[Teflon]

And we're all waiting for that list of teams who spent three or more years at or near the bottom and leveraged that into a flag. The way you guys are carrying on there must be heaps of examples. But I can't think of one.

If you can't see that the AFL is not an even playing field and we lack the flag opportunities of Haw, Syd, WC, Coll, Gee then I can't help you.

So no example then?

Your closed question means Jack in the scheme of building a list and only shows a simplistic view.

The teams you are alluding to that buck the bottoming out trend have something in common: money and power. Some are financially backed independently others are / have been an AFL priority therefor given greater concessions.

We must prioritise the draft and rely on bringing in talent that way more so than some other clubs.

I wonder why the AFL are starting to back the issue of equalisation after added pressure from clubs?

I tend to agree old mate
Off field $$ has to help on field in player development and this is where we are hurt - the fact also some clubs can have full time international recruiters on their payroll and we can't also hurts
Getting the best picks in the draft is a must for us and Dogs, Roos and yes no surprise AFL are keen to fix equalisation

[Teflon]

I can't come at tanking. Apart from it being against the rules and contrary to the spirit of the game, it is no fun for supporters.

Playing to lose can never be a good thing.

We should win whenever we can and take the best available talent in the drafts.

We're good at finding bargains going on recent efforts such as Sinclair, Dmac and Lonie. We should aim to become even better.

We should develop these kids better than anyone else does.

We've got a lot of talent coming through and I reckon sometime next season competition for spots will reach critical mass. Then we're ready to soar.

In any case, having a No. 1 pick doesn't guarantee you a champion. Ask any Demons supporter how Jack Watts is going.

Carl nice theory but puts a lot of pressure on to find bargains at 48 each year - won't happen
I like my chances finding a bargain better at 5 or less for a season or 2...no one likes losing but I truly don't feel we have enough cream in our side yet.... draft is our friend right now...

[Teflon]

And we're all waiting for that list of teams who spent three or more years at or near the bottom and leveraged that into a flag. The way you guys are carrying on there must be heaps of examples. But I can't think of one.

Unfair when you can't produce a list of Premiership sides without high end draft talent...
Again though this is a side issue - no one has said high picks guarantee Premiership.... that's just you playing with words and clearly some other things too...,

[kosifantutti]

Not asking for a guarantee. Just an example. Or is it just the vibe of the thing?

[The Fireman]

Not asking for a guarantee. Just an example. Or is it just the vibe of the thing?

Oh Dear.

[plugger66]

CW they know that they just dont want to debate the topic because the logic is sound
Far easier to argue using emotion and accusing people of not being supporters and demanding a win every week because thats popular.
I dont think we'll get top 3 pick..

Seriously Teffers, there are about 300 posts debating the topic. You don't like some of things that are being said so you continue to go back to that's the system. It maybe the system but in the end it means jack. There is no proof not winning games helps you to eventually win a flag and I know you haven't said it does but you point of getting a better pick is obviously to help you win a flag even if you haven't said that. People have proven its a rubbish idea but you continue on I take it you find it hard to say the word wrong. It doesn't matter if you don't say it but all it means is when people read your stuff they realise you lack credibility. You repeat the same things over and over again but in the end it just wasted words.

It is better to win every single game you can because of other things rather then pick 3 or pick 5. Its as simple as that.

[plugger66]

And we're all waiting for that list of teams who spent three or more years at or near the bottom and leveraged that into a flag. The way you guys are carrying on there must be heaps of examples. But I can't think of one.

If you can't see that the AFL is not an even playing field and we lack the flag opportunities of Haw, Syd, WC, Coll, Gee then I can't help you.

Why are the Hawks, Geelong and Pies better off than us in attracting players or having better flag opportunities? . Really we need to stop this why us or poor us attitude from our supporters. Any person with a brain knows pick 3 will be better than pick 5 on average but those supporters are shot term thinkers. They fail to see that we now have FA and we also have the ability because of our low SC to attract a young star. Would a 26 FA or a young star be interested in a side stagnating or a side that has genuine excitement. Its amazing how we had won 3 games this time last year and the same again this year but the difference in the media and others perception of things is we now are finally building and on the up. Nothing like that last year. It was all negative. We need to keep building. If we lost every single game for the rest of the year, we would be again called a basket case and would have little or no chance of getting a very good FA or young star. I think people need to really stop and think that short term pick 3 maybe better than pick 5 but long term winning as much as you can will also encourage a FA or a young star to join us.

Lets just try and win every game.

[The Fireman]

can I get the last word in ?

[plugger66]

can I get the last word in ?

No.

[kosifantutti]

Not asking for a guarantee. Just an example. Or is it just the vibe of the thing?

Oh Dear.

So no example.

[saynta]

Who is last at the moment. The Suns and how many low draft picks have they had.?

[The Fireman]

can I get the last word in ?

No.

haha knew it.

[bergholt]

Please answer a simple question.

Why cant we land another A grader or two by way of OOC, DFA or FA?

Let's just look at Free Agency. Here are the free agents in the three years it's existed, sorted by the finishing position of clubs that have taken them:

Clubs in the top four (7 players)

1st place 2014 - Hawthorn - James Frawley (restricted)
2nd place 2013 - Fremantle - Colin Sylvia (unrestricted)
4th place 2012 - Collingwood - Quinten Lynch (unrestricted)
4th place 2012 - Collingwood - Clinton Young (unrestricted)
4th place 2013 - Sydney - Lance Franklin (restricted)
4th place 2014 - North Melbourne - Shaun Higgins (restricted)
4th place 2014 - North Melbourne - Jarrad Waite (unrestricted)

Clubs in the finals but outside the top four (5 players)

5th place 2013 - Port Adelaide - Matt White (unrestricted)
6th place 2012 - Fremantle - Danyle Pearce (restricted)
6th place 2013 - Carlton - Dale Thomas (restricted)
7th place 2012 - Geelong - Jared Rivers (unrestricted)
7th place 2014 - Essendon - Jimmy Gwilt (unrestricted)

Clubs that missed the finals but went OK (6 players)

10th place 2013 - North Melbourne - Nick Dal Santo (restricted)
11th place 2012 - Essendon - Brendon Goddard (restricted)
11th place 2013 - Adelaide - Eddie Betts (restricted)
12th place 2012 - Richmond - Troy Chaplin (restricted)
12th place 2012 - Richmond - Chris Knights (unrestricted)
12th place 2014 - Gold Coast - Nick Malceski (unrestricted)

Clubs that finished in the bottom six spots (4 players)

13th place 2012 - Brisbane - Brent Moloney (restricted)
13th place 2013 - West Coast - Xavier Ellis (unrestricted)
16th place 2012 - Melbourne - Shannon Byrnes (unrestricted)
17th place 2012 - Gold Coast - Tom Murphy (unrestricted)


Not many A-graders in the list at all, but definitely none in the last bracket - those finishing right down the bottom. Take your pick of Moloney, Ellis, Byrnes and Murphy for who's been best or worst, none of them have played more than about 20 games for their new club. And Brisbane won 10 games in 2012 to finish 13th, West Coast won 9 in 2013 to finish in the same spot.

Small sample size, but the evidence so far suggests it's hard to pick up a quality FA if you don't win more than half your games. That's why we won't land an A-grader by FA.

[The Fireman]

Who is last at the moment. The Suns and how many low draft picks have they had.?

It's about the potential of high picks. With their picks they should be going better but as stated ( no guarantees ) but hey gimme those high picks so we can start winning games to attract the FA players.

[bergholt]

Please answer a simple question.

Why cant we land another A grader or two by way of OOC, DFA or FA?

And as an addendum, delisted free agents:

Dylan Roberton, Jonathon Simpkin, Jeremy Laidler, Daniel Cross, Robin Nahas, Nick Lower, Tom Derickx, Aidan Riley, Mitch Robinson, Taylor Hunt, Ben Newton, Tim Membrey, Tony Armstrong, Dylan Addison, Luke McGuane, Matthew Dick, Tom Gillies, Sam Blease, Joel Hamling

I don't even know who half those guys are but I'm going to make the brave call that there are zero A-graders there. So it looks like that'll also be hard to get much out of.

[bigred]

Hawthorn 27.13 (175) d St Kilda 4.6 (30)

See that scoreline? That is why I want to win today.

[6621104]

P66 said: and I agree!

" Its amazing how we had won 3 games this time last year and the same again this year but the difference in the media and others perception of things is we now are finally building and on the up. Nothing like that last year. It was all negative. We need to keep building. If we lost every single game for the rest of the year, we would be again called a basket case and would have little or no chance of getting a very good FA or young star. I think people need to really stop and think that short term pick 3 maybe better than pick 5 but long term winning as much as you can will also encourage a FA or a young star to join us.

Lets just try and win every game".

We do not want to lose the momentum and must build on the perception that the SAINTS are getting a lot of things right.

[citywest]

And we're all waiting for that list of teams who spent three or more years at or near the bottom and leveraged that into a flag. The way you guys are carrying on there must be heaps of examples. But I can't think of one.

as said earlier Kosi there are no guarantees.. it's about the opportunity to gain more potential. Which as I said earlier makes the losses somewhat easier for me personally to take ...this debate has gone on for too long and is repeating itself.

Of course there's no guarantees. But maybe just one example?

I gave the example of Daniel Wulf all those years ago. If memory serves me correct, if he hadn't smothered that kick and then hit the post we would have ended up on 5 wins for the year and a Priority Pick. Instead of only getting BJ at number 1 we could have had BJ at 1 and also Wells at number 2. I seem to recall we were screaming out for a player just like Wells when we traded a high pick for Andrew Lovett who as we all know never played a game for the Saints. Is it a stretch to say Wulf's poster cost us 2 flags?

[kosifantutti]

And we're all waiting for that list of teams who spent three or more years at or near the bottom and leveraged that into a flag. The way you guys are carrying on there must be heaps of examples. But I can't think of one.

as said earlier Kosi there are no guarantees.. it's about the opportunity to gain more potential. Which as I said earlier makes the losses somewhat easier for me personally to take ...this debate has gone on for too long and is repeating itself.

Of course there's no guarantees. But maybe just one example?

I gave the example of Daniel Wulf all those years ago. If memory serves me correct, if he hadn't smothered that kick and then hit the post we would have ended up on 5 wins for the year and a Priority Pick. Instead of only getting BJ at number 1 we could have had BJ at 1 and also Wells at number 2. I seem to recall we were screaming out for a player just like Wells when we traded a high pick for Andrew Lovett who as we all know never played a game for the Saints. Is it a stretch to say Wulf's poster cost us 2 flags?

So we got the number one draft pick and didn't win a flag.

[The Fireman]

awesome thread